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Killed them all, made appetizers for boiled crawfish.  | |||
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Bison Tasso, diced, white onion, butter, Sautern, carmelize....blend into Meuniere sauce.... | |||
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Were there was that one guy in Yellow Stone, but he was only armed with a camera. I think it was the flash that pissed off the Bison. | |||
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I read the question a bit differently. Velocity gives flatter trajectory and greater striking velocity. Would it be reasonable to suggest that whilst a 458WM is entirely adequate on the largest game up close ... the faster cartridges give the same strike but at distance. When you've paid beaucoup dollars to hunt your dream animal (say elephant) and your only opportunity is at 150m on a good bull that's been hunted under fair chase rules ... would you pass it up because of distance? Perhaps the 458Lott, 458AR's, 460Wbys allow you to extend your reach beyond 100m??? Just my thoughts. On soft skinned game, I was well enough convinced that a 480gr at 2060fps from my old Zastava 458WinMag was entirely adequate (and flat-shooting) to 200m. I'm not so sure if the animal was BIG and nasty whether I'd take that shot even if it was in the clear and entirely possible. Hell ... I dont use my 22RF on rabbits beyond 75m when I know it'll kill them at twice the distance ... at longer ranges I use a 222Rimmed. Cheers... Con | |||
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Dangerous game isn't dangerous past - at the most - 50yds, why bother? Elephant are a close game, to shoot one beyond maybe 30yds and you've deprived yourself of the whole essence of an elephant hunt - which shouldn't be merely ivory. The trajectory of the 458wm isn't so rainbowish as many would belive. Nor is that od the, say, 458 Lott so flat that it makes a difference. For example, the Federal Trophy Bonded Bearclaw loads for the 458wm vs Lott show 9.2" and 7.1" of drop at 200yds with a 100yd zero. Your elephant rifle ought to wear nothing but express or a large aperture sight. At 200yds 2" means nothing. And not much more than nothing with a scope. So far as 200yds velocity, well it ought to be moot for anything for which a 458wm, or Lott for that matter, is required for. And it doesn't fall short for those animals for which the 458wm, or Lott, are unecessary. BTW, I've taken a klippspringer with my 458wm double rifle, and I know another fellow who took one with his 470. Trajectory obviously wasn't an issue for either of us. Here is my klippspringer:  JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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JPK, I agree totally ... but it's a valid justification of why someone may choose to use the faster cartridge. I reckon hunting/shooting any animal past 100yards has in reality lost the essence of hunting. But boy a 200m shot on an undisturbed trophy buffalo when I cant get any closer would be tempting and I'd want to hit him with as much firepower as I can handle!! But back to the 458WinMag ... if we work backwards ... a 45/70 with 500gr at 1550fps is entirelay appropriate at say 25yards? Why is the 458WinMag any 'better' than a 45/70 for DG hunting? I think no matter what cartridge is used, its just a headstamp ... at the end of the day the projectile does the work and it needs to be placed on the right spot and traverse through to vital organs. Whether its a 458WinMag or 318WR that does the killing is irrelevant. We argue that a larger calibre is a better 'stopper' ... but that notion of 'needing' a stopper is in itself outdated in this day of predominantly guided hunts. I'm loving playing with the 458AccRel at the moment ... but is it better than my old Zastava 458WM ... probably not.  Cheers... Con | |||
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Ha-Good One!! Sounds good to this "Coon-ass" (I was born and raised for 43 years in Nawlins!)  Now,my 2 cents from 17 Buff Kills...Bigger is safer and helps some when your bullet doesnt go where you thought it would go!But if your right on target,the 458 will do the job easily,but heck,everyone has one,so I prefer to be different and go for the BIG Hole guns(plus I lover the punishment!    "That's not a knife..THIS is a KNIFE" ! | |||
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Bigger equals dead faster. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I always thought the 458 would make a good revolver round with the belt. But a double revolver?!?! Cool! Does it have two barrels or two cylinders or both??  | |||
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In reality there isn't much of an argument about bigger is a better killer or stopper. That's the only reason that one should choose something bigger than a 458 WM, or anything else for that matter. I have a great appreciation for the PH's I have hunted with, but also in reality some can shoot better than others. And it really doesn't matter whether they can shoot or not. A buff or elephant zigs or zags at the last moment in a face to face charge and things can go to crap in a hurry. And there ain't no such thing as a guaranteed stopper. If the PH's "stopper" fails to stop it, what are you going to do with a pop gun? Ask for a do-over? And what happens if you get charged by two jumbo at the same time? Holy crap. And, to be honest, it fairly perturbs me when guys show up undergunned, relieving themselves of any responsibilty of using enough gun, facing up to a potential charge, or knowing where to shoot in a charge. If you watch all these videos, how many of the PH's actually kill anything that charges? A very small percentage. I am not that confident in a PH saving me.  ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Here you go. Don't ever doubt me. https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=...=546100678#546100678 ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Will , Point taken ... a rifle capable of stopping or turning an inbound hunk of angry flesh can indeed be handy. But I think every client hunter needs to weigh up where their limits are ... would you rather a good man with a cool disposition be beside you with a 375H&H, or a hot-headed fellow scared witless of being hurt by his 460Wby? I'm glad you posted the link on the cow that got too close ... if it wasn't for the occasional event like that ... why would anyone hunt DG? I think it was Hemingway that said without the danger of death, it's just a game.  Cheers... Con | |||
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That's good and guarentys secoundary misisles in the body cavity. Apparenet;y you've never seen the size of a mature Bison Bulls bones. To act like a Cape Buffalo is armour plated is ridiculous. Ted Hazelwood (Deseased) when he worked for Winnchester took Cape with a 300 Win with one shot, Jo Anne Hall when she was guided by Ross Seufreid took her Cape Buffalo with one shot also with a 300 Winchester, Allen Day dropped 2 each with 1 shot each with a 300 Winchester. You guys atre funny with the indescrutable Cape Buffalo _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Anatomical differences aside I think it is pretty ridiculous to try to compare the relative tenacity of an animal that has had to fight its entire life to survive in the wild to one that has been raised on a ranch… Irregardless of species… ______________________ Sometimes there is no spring... Just the wind that smells fresh before the storm... | |||
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The tenasity of life was not the point of this thread to begin with. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I agree 100 % But it did somehow spin into the whole Bison Vs Cape Buff ______________________ Sometimes there is no spring... Just the wind that smells fresh before the storm... | |||
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I mearly used the Bison as a comparison of penetration. Anyone that has disassembled a Bison will know that they have a tremendous bone structure and little percentage of meat for their wieght. Anytime a handgun hunter takes a Cape Buffalo and shoote completely through it the big bore rifle boys act as if it didn't and couldn't happen. Jack Huntington has built 475 and 500 revolvers for a number of customers that did just that,"shoot a bullet completely through (exited) a Cape Buffalo. Armour Plated they are not. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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More wasted powder, blast, recoil,.....? Those bigger berthas are virtually useless for casual hunter. They are really of real use only to guide or pro hunter sometimes called Buana. | |||
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SAFARKID, You should consider doing some weight lifting you are looking a bit skimpy in those pictures!  ------------------------------------------ I totally agree with Will DO NOT bank on the belief that your are safe simply because you have a PH beside you. I stopped my own at close range a couple of years ago with a PH by my side. You can read about it in the January 2008 issue of African Hunter magazine. It is called a tale of two charges. I am the second hunter in the story and the one in the picture. To address Phil's comment I think the 99% number is a bit high but the point is well taken. And it is EXACTLY why I load my Lott to win mag velocity it makes it nicer to shoot and it provides lower pressure. | |||
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My dog ain't in this fight. I currently don't own a big bore, have never been to Africa or shot a Bison. I just think these photos, from Freedom Arms, are the coolest thing I've ever seen!        | |||
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I’m not really sure how handguns even became an issue in this thread as the original poster wanted to see if anyone could quantify for him any real world difference in cartridges larger than the 458 Winchester? This thread could be spun off into many useless comparisons/arguments (cape buff vs. bison, handguns vs. rifles, bows vs. guns, large bore vs. small bore, high velocity vs. low velocity, eventually killing an animal vs. actually stopping one)… In reality I believe the intentions of this thread and most of the responses are biased and stem from the pious beliefs of the less is more crowd. Believing that anyone using anything larger than what is absolutely necessary to kill an animal is somehow a “showoff’ or trying to compensate for some lack of shooting ability. Also don’t forget that anyone shooting a large bore is afraid of it and going to flinch at the shot… Is there any real world difference in cartridges larger than the 458? I believe so…If not why have we developed them? If Jack Huntington built a 475 revolver that can shoot clean through a cape buff then why did build the 500? ______________________ Sometimes there is no spring... Just the wind that smells fresh before the storm... | |||
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Free 500grains | |||
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How 'bout the good man with a cool disposition with a 458wm, Lott, 500NE, 577NE... I don't think anyone is going to be scared of being hurt with any rifle with an ele bearing down. And a fellow hot headed or scared witless during an ele charge is useless, maybe dangerous, with any rifle. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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I sure csn't speak for anyone else that has been charged by an elephant but I wasn't scared on either of the charges I experienced. Not because I am a "brave fellow" but because it all happened so fast I didn't have time to be scared. Scared came later when I thought of what might have been. I agree with Will's post that you should be capable of handling what comes up on your own. The PH may miss, not be in a position to help you out or in some cases may not even be there. Yes, it happens. You will be surprised at how many times you are in the bush alone on a hunt. You may go off for a dump or walk down the road looking for tracks by your self. Also on almost all the elephant I have shot the PH has left me with an unarmed tracker or an AK-47 armed scout at the elephant carcass while he goes for the vehicle. Elephants have been known to return to a downed herd member. Be prepared for the Worst! 465H&H | |||
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JPK He got dem arms from pullin da heads off dem late season crawfish. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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I don't care how he got dem arms. I'll be saying SIR next time I got bidness wid him. | |||
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465H&H, My experience is similar to yours. I've had the shakes after the event but all is calm or even seems slow motion while it is happening. On the other hand, the tales of clients, even PH's, bolting or melting down when an ele comes are legion. I'm guessing clients that bolt or loose it don't return and we never, ever read or hear of it, as for PH's who do the same, I hope they end up sticking to plains game. I'm 100% in agreement with Surestrike, Will and you, be prepared to do what you have to do, regardless of the PH, because he may miss, not be able to shoot or have a poorer opportunity, or who knows, eh? I do know that personal experience = two shoot to stop charges and no successful brain shot, though the elephant was turned in both situations. As Will alluded too, no do overs. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Hmm, BIG CRAWFISH!!! JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Don't worry a good cajun can kill only one way. Thats with kindness!We like to feed our guest to death. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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There is one thing my 470 does that my win mag does not. When I break out the 470 at the range it turns heads. I will get- What is that? answer (My light double) What you gone kill with that? answer (Any thing I want!) Does it kick? (Just a little) Dam that fun, only one guy had the balls to shoot it. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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Getting back to the original question, from what I've read, the .458WM can do it all. . . but, a near miss to the brain or vitals on a charge, a bigger cart. is more likely to impart some shock and turning value. So if the shooter can handle it, why not? | |||
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No reason not to go bigger if you can withstand the abuse. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I am not a .458 fan because it ticked me off that Winchester used such a small case, it should have been a 3" case to start with, it was poor judgement by the bean counters, but it was also the only whore in town at the time and it got popular... 99% of the PHs found out that if handloaded it could get an easy 2000 FPS or even 2050 FPS perhaps,without compaction.. I am of the opinnion that 2000 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet is fine for anything that walks, talks, breaths, or crawls including Sperm whale..I know it is in the .470 as that is where my load is and its worked well on a good many Buffalo... Most of the bad rapts on the .458 Win. came from factory ammo that went 1800 or so FPS, that didn't work and its a good reason not to use the 45-70 on Cape Buffalo... What is arguementive is trying to make the .458 into a lott without the use of a reamer, then you get compaction and historically run into problems..If this were not so then this age old arguement would have put itself to rest ions ago. BTW, the American Bison is just as tough if not tougher to kill than a Cape Buffalo mostly because he is bigger by a good deal...A Bison isn't normally as mean..I have seen Bison go miles with more than a few shoulder shots, One bison went near 4 miles after taking 4 hard hits with a 300 Wby, go figure. I have seen another take two good shoulder shots with a Ruger No. 1 in .458, loaded hot, and he stood for almost 10 minutes, while the guide told the hunter, don't shoot again, I finally told the hunter to put one behind its ear and he did and told the guide it was the hunters bull, not his. Bison can be tougher than hell, but like all animals only on ocassions, same for Cape Buffalo. I have been accused of condeming the .458 Win. by folks that only skim the posts and jump to erronous conclusions, you know they put words in your mouth... It is a dooable caliber, though poorly designed and its easy to convert to the Lott and thats where the smart money goes, but if one likes and wants to use the .458 properly then it will serve you well enough IMO, and its certainly as good as my favorite caliber the 450-400..... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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My opinion differs from Ray's in that I like the standard 458 precisely BECAUSE it is on a short case. The reason for the 458's problems have been linked simply to powder deterioration due to heat and compaction. With fresh ammo, especially with today's newer powders, it does everything it was supposed to do and it does it from a quick to operate, short case. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Ddunn, Over the last 28 years I have tried reloading the 458 WM, skipped the Lott, 450 Ackley (I like alot), 460 GA, and 450 Dakota. the larger cases are much easier to work up loads with than the WM. the extra velocity makes them useful for plains game and the extra velocity creates alot more necrotic tissue with soft points on even large animals like buffalo. You probably dont need more than a 458 WM up close with elephant but the extra horsepower makes a big diffeence when shooting soft points on everything else. Andy | |||
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Andy, there is nothing wrong with your logic but I went the other way and loaded 400 gr Swifts, North Fork and Kodiaks to 2300fps. They work great on everything on this side of the pond. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Phil, I agree but the 400 grain North Fork dies even better at 2,750 fps!  Pictured; 450 NF at 2,550 fps and 400 grain at 2,750 fps, point blank on 1,600 pound Cape Buffalo.  Andy | |||
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Another ignorant post by a know it all with phony experience, especially when it comes to elephants. Ray, if bison are so much harder to kill with good heart/lung shats than buff because of the respective size difference, explain why elephants are so much easier to kill than buff, despite a 4x or 5x size differential. Uhh, never mind, I forgot for a moment that you have near zero elephant experience and an entirely inflated version of your buff experience. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Phil, That's the kind of load I eternally regret not having tried but with a 400gr Woodleigh. S&F and I will probably end up going another 100fps to 2400fps and then use the 400gr Woodleigh in our 458AccRel's for our large Sambar deer. Cheers... Con | |||
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I never had a problem getting 500-grainers up to 2150 fps with a 24" barreled .458WinMag, using IMR-3031, back when I used to kill moose and marmots with it. I could get 400-grainers up to 2400 fps with IMR-4198, but only with cratered primers, brass extrusion into the ejector slot, and sticky bolt. Are there any powders that will make 400-grainers go 2400 fps with reasonable pressure in the .458WinMag? Phil's load with a 400-grain Swift at 2300 fps is much smarter. I suspect a 400-grain Woodleigh would turn inside-out at 2400 fps. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores What will X do that the 458WM will not?
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