What's the biggest shoulder fired cartridge? I don't mean cannon rounds or stuff like that, but rounds that are fired from a "gun". Im interested in both the most energy and largest caliber.

Well you've got the ancient 4-bore cartridges which were rather large, pushing a .973, 2000 grain slug around in the 1300-1400 fps and coming close to 9000 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle. Than I found some website with a reference stating of a Modern Nitro 4-bore rifle pushing a 2200 grain bullet at 1950 fps, equating to 18555 foot pounds of energy and 338.0 free pounds of recoil. That makes my damn .458 sound like a 22lr!

http://www.john-ross.net/recoil.htm

October Country used to make 4-bore blackpowder muzzleloaders, which are heavy as hell single shot rifles. I've had one for a couple of years and the thing ain't never gonna leave my side. I'm not quite sure if they make them anymore but I'll look into it

quote:

Originally posted by The Metalsmith:

October Country used to make 4-bore blackpowder muzzleloaders, which are heavy as hell single shot rifles. I've had one for a couple of years and the thing ain't never gonna leave my side. I'm not quite sure if they make them anymore but I'll look into it

They also used to make a 8 Bore Double that I lusted over!!!!!

Definitely Oprah.

When we get our 4bore barrels,we plan on
running 2000gr Naval Ordnance up to
2500 fps in a 40 lb gun, 34 inch barrel.
If I ever get something to put the barrels
I have here for 2bore case we made,I plan on
smoothbore shot loads of about 2000gr at
same speed for testing.Ed.

i had a 2 bore 1.314 bore that shot a 3500 grain round ball with 550 grains of fg black powder that thing friggin hurt but man was it arush.

My 12 GaFH will >3000fps with a 1000 gr bullet. Is that enough? A 7/8 ounce sabot will clear 4000 fps plus! Hard to beat and practical too.-Rob

As far as I know, it's the .950JDJ.

George

Sir Samuel Baker had a 2 bore smoothbore muzzleloader (IIRC) that he called "Baby"! He said every time he pulled the trigger the recoil would spin him around, give him a headache and a nose bleed..... This from a guy who's DGR was a 21 pound 4 bore(firing a 1/4 lb ball)! Not exactly a pussycat when an 8 bore has around 120 ft/lbs of recoil firing a 1250gr conical bullet at around 1500fps. Now those are guns. Imagine how those guys would laugh at our pea shooters.

bulldog,

Baker's "baby" was a four bore. He references the half pound "shells" he fired in it so often that people just lost track of the fact that they were conicals and declared the rifle to be a "two bore'. Baker was also a BIG fan of BIG powder charges so I'm not surprised he got a nosebleed now and then. He references somewhere using 400+ grain powder charges in Baby.
Honestly, my eight bore definitely gets your attention with 273 grains of powder under a roundball but I wouldn't call is excessive. Frankly, I've dropped that charge to 200 grains for casual target shooting and, in a 16 pound rifle, the recoil is quite mild.

Best,

John

I was also of the impression that "BABY" (Jinnah Al Mutfa-Son of a Cannon") was a 2-bore. But I am glad to get the true facts here.... It was certainly bad enough, as "Pasha" Baker ended his days as pretty much a punch-drunk vegetable from shootiun the thing....

Wow...I never thought anything would go over an inch. Those are some huge guns, my 14 year old body would be thrown around.

Hell kid you just gotta get trained up to it, that's all. Back in the stone age my dad had me shooting a .458 when I was 14. Now honestly I can't say I was good at it, and my groups looked more akin to that of a shotgun, nonetheless it taught me early how to manage recoil a little better nowadays.
Hit the gym with some of that creatine stuff and you'll be shooting a .950 JDJ in a year boy!

El Deguello - Samuel Baker wound up as a "punch-drunk" fool not because of all the punishment he sustained from the recoil of "Baby" but because of his habit of hardening Baby's projectiles with mercury. He died with, if not because of mercury poisening.

Dang...458 at 14. Biggest I shoot is 3 1/2s, the charts say the recoil is similar, but I've shot a 338 and that seems more on par.

quote:

Originally posted by Masterifleman:
El Deguello - Samuel Baker wound up as a "punch-drunk" fool not because of all the punishment he sustained from the recoil of "Baby" but because of his habit of hardening Baby's projectiles with mercury. He died with, if not because of mercury poisening.

This seems very likely as, in his writing, Baker mentions firing Baby VERY rarely at game....less than 20 times I think. Interestingly, also in his writings, Baker mentions that the benefits received by "hardening" projectiles, are overwhelmed by the disadvantages one experiences due to lighter weight bullets.

Best,

John

P.S. I wouldn't mind living out my golden years as a "punch drunk fool" if that state of mind was brought about by living the life that Baker did.

quote:

Originally posted by Masterifleman:
El Deguello - Samuel Baker wound up as a "punch-drunk" fool not because of all the punishment he sustained from the recoil of "Baby" but because of his habit of hardening Baby's projectiles with mercury. He died with, if not because of mercury poisening.

I was aware that he used mercury as did others, to harden lead balls for use on dangerous game. I can certainly see how a person could have been poisoned by the stuff, if they were not too aware of the hazards and failed to protect themselves from it.....

quote:

Baker mentions that the benefits received by "hardening" projectiles, are overwhelmed by the disadvantages one experiences due to lighter weight bullets.

Yet, he also seems to have believed that hardened round balls were more effective dangerous game bullets than conicals from the same gun.

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:
Yet, he also seems to have believed that hardened round balls were more effective dangerous game bullets than conicals from the same gun.

This is just one example of Baker being less than consistent. This seems to be a habit of his. Of course, when you hunt as much as he did your opinions are bound to change over time. Incidentally, I am also a believer in the power of the round ball and would have no trouble using a hardened one on something like buffalo. But when it comes to anything bigger, necessitating conicals, I think weight combined with a lack of fragility are more important.


Best,

John

The biggest big bore?

Oh the geek of course.

In one of Bakers books, he specifically mentions a "special singleshot rifle by Gibbs" as a 2 bore firing half pound exploding shells. And that the 4 bores were his regular useing guns.

Biggest rifles? in a bolt gun?
600 OK
577 trex
550 magnum
585 nyati
550 express
510 wells/500 a2/500 jeffe/505gibbs

jeffe

and the soon to be 500 a.r.

quote:

Originally posted by TSJ:
he specifically mentions a "special singleshot rifle by Gibbs" as a 2 bore firing half pound exploding shells.

Does he mention them as firing round balls or conicals? Does he specify? If not, and I don't recall him doing to, then it is VERY likely that those half pound "shells" were conicals.

Jay,

Am I a boor, boar, boer, or bore? Is it boorish of a boer to clean his bore while hunting boar?

Best,

John

Though I am not in sufficient repair to look it up right now, I too recall reading in some detail (and in Baker's own words) that he used a 2-bore muzzle-loader for some period of time.

It fired round balls, and he went into considerable detail as to how poorly it penetrated, thus requiring him to learn to reload while running after (or from) elephant. Seems as how one of his tales included running most of all of one day in pursuit, ending up shooting the beast something like 17 times before it finally gave up the ghost. I may recall the number incorrectly, but I am sure it was well into the "teens".

Baker was not only a pioneering non-native hunter, he was reputably also a giant of a man for his day, both physically and in endurance.

"The half-pounder rifles were the same calibre and pattern as that described in "The Nile Tributaries of Abyssinia" as "the Baby." These were made by Mr. Holland of Bond Street, and are the most overpowering rifles I ever used. They were certain to kill the elephant, and to half kill the man who fired them with twelve drachms of fine-grain powder. I was tolerably strong, therefore I was never killed outright; but an Arab hunter had his collar-bone smashed by the recoil, when the rifle was loaded with simple coarse-grain powder. If he had used fine grain, I should hardly have insured his life."

-Baker, Ismailia

"Among other weapons, I had an extraordinary rifle that carried a half-pound percussion shell--this instrument of torture to the hunter was not sufficiently heavy for the weight of the projectile; it only weighed twenty pounds: thus, with a charge of ten drachms of powder, behind a HALF-POUND shell, the recoil was so terrific, that I was spun round like a weathercock in a hurricane. I really dreaded my own rifle, although I had been accustomed to heavy charges of powder and severe recoil for many years.

None of my men could fire it, and it was looked upon with a species of awe, and was named "Jenna el Mootfah" (child of a cannon) by the Arabs, which being far too long a name for practice, I christened it the "Baby;" and the scream of this "Baby," loaded with a half pound shell, was always fatal. It was far too severe, and I very seldom fired it, but it is a curious fact, that I never fired a shot with that rifle without bagging: the entire practice, during several years, was confined to
about twenty shots. I was afraid to use it; but now and then it was absolutely necessary that it should be cleaned, after lying for months loaded. On such occasions my men had the gratification of firing it, and the explosion was always accompanied by two men falling on their backs (one having propped up the shooter), and the "Baby" flying some yards
behind them. This rifle was made by Holland, of Bond Street, and I could highly recommend it for Goliath of Gath, but not for men of A.D. 1866."

-Baker, The Albert N'Yanza, Great Basin of the Nile

"My little Fletcher double rifle, No. 24.
One double rifle, No. 10, by Tatham.
Two double rifles, No. 10, by Reilly.
one double rifle, No. 10, by Beattie (one of my old Ceylon tools).
One double gun, No. 10, by Beattie.
One double gun, No. 10, by Purdey, belonging to Mr. Oswell, of South African celebrity.
One single rifle, No. 8, by Manton.
One single rifle, No. 14, by Beattie.
One single rifle that carried a half-pouud explosive shell, by Holland of Bond Street; this was nicknamed by the Arabs "Jenna el Mootfah" (child of a cannon), and for the sake of brevity I Called it the "Baby."

Baker, The Nile Tributaries of Abyssinia, and the Sword Hunters of the Hamran Arabs


Notice that nowhere in the above passages does Baker refer to round balls. I searched all of his texts on gutenberg.com and found no references to round balls in relation to big bore weapons. His exploding "shells" were almost certainly NOT spherical and therefore, "Baby" must not have been a two bore. She may not have been exactly a four, but she wasn't a two. Of course, most weapons nominally referred to as "four bores" were actually five or six bores as well. Even my own "eight bore" is ever so slightly an exaggeration as the bore measures only .828.

Best,

John

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Biggest rifles? in a bolt gun?
600 OK
577 trex
550 magnum
585 nyati
550 express
510 wells/500 a2/500 jeffe/505gibbs

jeffe

Don't forget the new .585 AHR!!!

Baker called it " a 2 bore rifle cartridge fireing a 3500 grain(1/2 pound) hardened round ball, or a half pound exploding bullet. And he did mention the exploding rounds wasnt worth a shit.

citation?

I would realy love to own a 4 bore one day. I rang Century Arms in Australia about the 4 bore rifles they make ,but they are a bit too high in specs (and hence price) for me. If they ever make a cheap basic model ,I would love to get one one day. Is there anyone else out there who makes a more moderatley priced 4 bore?

Wouldn't the widest shoulder fired cartridge have to be "Cartridge, 40mm, HEDP, M433" (and the like) of M79/M203 fame? Not quite sure how we calculate a Taylor KO factor for it though...

John the Greek
One is an ancient article in The Rifleman by George Hoyem on blackpowder bigbores, the second refrence to it is in an equelly old GUNS mag with the article by Jack Lott, although he called himself Jaques Lott for some reason. He dug into Hollands records and they called it a 2 bore as it did indeed fire a half pounder.

Oh, sorry, the Gibbs were a pair of doubles baker had built in 10 bore, the singleshot 2 bore was a Holland.

A bit more comment on "2-bore" exploding bullets. Though I have never had the opportunity to observe and measure one of Baker's 2-bore bullets, they could have been somewhat elongated and still be of full 2-bore diameter.

He described it as being a projecticle he invented and cast himself. He used 1/2 oz of "fine-grained powder" inside the rough eqiuivalent of a small CO-2 cylinder, with a longish neck (tube) attached. The cylinder was supposedly placed in the mould, then the lead cast around it. Then the powder was poured in to fill the small cylinder and the neck leading from it to the nose of the bullet. Just before loading the projectile into the rifle, a percussion cap was placed on the end of the tube at the nose of the bullet.

He chose this method to avoid the instantaneous surface detonation of the then available commercial explosive bullets which, IIRC, were loaded with potash picrate as the detonating substance.

It was his belief and claim that the time taken for the percussion cap to explode, then burn the trail of powder down the tube to the main charge, allowed the bullet time to penetrate to a deadly depth before exploding.

Whether that worked as he thought or not, the inclusion of such a device in a bullet would necessarily elongate it, even if of full two-bore diameter. After all, the steel capsule, it's tube, and the powder are all much less dense than lead. So for the whole affair to weigh 8 ounces, when the powder alone weighed 1/2 ounce, the bullet MUST have been elongated somewhat. How much I will not atempt to calculate, though it obviously depends on how much lead the explosive capsule, tube and powder displaced.

I will not be ambulatory enough to do any real research on this subject for the next few weeks, so likely cannot contribute any more to this thread.

However, in absence of engineering/production quality drawings of his actual projectiles, I will take his word for it, that his gun fired full half-pound lead/steel/powder projectiles through a 2-bore barrel.

729 Jongman 1048 grain bullet at 2250fps

And a 895 grain bullet at 2367fps.

quote:

Originally posted by TSJ:
John the Greek
One is an ancient article in The Rifleman by George Hoyem on blackpowder bigbores, the second refrence to it is in an equelly old GUNS mag with the article by Jack Lott, although he called himself Jaques Lott for some reason. He dug into Hollands records and they called it a 2 bore as it did indeed fire a half pounder.

And that only proves 90% of the gunwriters got it wrong.

Damn I'm supposed to be retired from this site unless I make the next Olympics-a deal I did with my coach but I can't take this argument any longer.

The biggest gun made by holland for Baker, seriel number 1296, is listed in their records as 3 bore, firing a more or less 5 ounce ball, or heavier longer shell.Check it out yourself.

Damn I only came here to get some email addresses.

See you in two years.

Karl.

quote:

Originally posted by Karl:
And that only proves 90% of the gunwriters got it wrong.

The biggest gun made by holland for Baker, seriel number 1296, is listed in their records as 3 bore, firing a more or less 5 ounce ball, or heavier longer shell. Check it out yourself.

EXACTLY! Without a primary source, it is all gun rag hearsay. I don't care if Jack Lott wrote the article, one will not find a reference to Baker firing a half pound lead ball IN BAKER because it simply isn't there. I LOVE reading his stuff, but like any outdoor writer of today, Baker too had a flair for the dramatic...."Firing the half pound shell spun me like a weathercock and bloodied my nose" etc. Further, isn't it interesting that Baby takes an amazingly prominent place throughout his writings considering he says he fired it only around 20 times on game over all those years and heads of game? Why would that be? Simply because he liked the idea, as most of us do, of having the biggest and best rifle money can buy. Hence, I think he intentionally perpetuated the belief that the rifle was a two-bore by simply never mentioning the actual bore diameter.

JMHO,

John

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
I will take his word for it, that his gun fired full half-pound lead/steel/powder projectiles through a 2-bore barrel.

Except he never says this of Baby or I think any other rifle. If you find a primary source saying otherwise I'll be eating crow but I don't think such a source exists.

JMHO,

John

Bakers " baby" being a more or less custom job, could have been in fact, say a, 2 1/2 bore and subject to being called either a 2 or 3 bore. Baker wrote articles for various English papers, and in "The great basin of the nile" 1866, he wrote "his 2 bore fireing a 1/2 pound shell with 10 drams of powder gave him a terrific headache for some time after the shot."
No matter what you want to call it, it seems it deffinatly is not a 4 bore as you claimed it had to be John. Should be good for you at least eating a blackbird isnt it.

Sorry, but nowhere in The Great Basin of the Nile does baker EVER use the phrase "two bore" or "2 bore".....Tha magic of computer searches of e-texts allows us to see this. He repeatedly does assert, in various forms, that "I had an extraordinary rifle that carried a half-pound percussion shell--this instrument of torture to the hunter was not sufficiently heavy for the weight of the projectile; it only weighed twenty pounds"....which basically leaves us where we were before. A half pound shell does not necessarily equal a two bore...in fact it almost certainly doesn't. Show me a citation that says the diameter was "two bore" and I may believe it...otherwise I'm going on the word of people who have seen the rifle and who know of the H&H records.

Best,

John

I was going by the quote of Truesdale, he supposedly got it from an article from a british paper.
Now, you say your going to go by people who've seen Hollands records .... Karl says 3 bore, Lott called it 2 bore, thats why I said maybe it was actually a 2 1/2 or some such. Now your backing off your claim that it was and only was a 4 bore? Thats what I thought should be worth you eating a b.bird.