Gents,

I'm getting a backup rifle made for my intended Ele hunt, and a general North American Big Bore. I have a 450NE double as my primary.Boom Boom. I was going to have it built in 375, but then the maker went and brought up the 400HH. I had never looked at the 400 until he suggested it, it got me looking. I really like this cart, it seems like a pretty neat. I'm not worried about availability or reloading. I have looked at the 416 rem but like the cool factor of the 400hh.

I guess I have a few questions I'm looking for opinions on for you experienced fellows:

1. does a 400 class better fill the gap to 458 for a lighter rifle

2. what is the long range versatility of the 400's compared to the 375, seems like the newer light mono metals even things out (GS customs makes a HV 317 grain that should do 2700 fps)

3. Reality check, am I on crack here. Is it overkill for North America, would I really use it.

As a backup rifle for elephant, the 400 makes more sense, but when you throw in general N.A. game, the 375 takes home the prize. If you are only going on one elephant hunt, but would be able to use the backup rifle frequently at home, I would only consider the 375 because it is just so damn useful as an all around caliber. IMO, You already have the best ele cartridge with the 450. The other alternative is to do both, who needs to rationalize wanting a new DGR!

I like the .400 H&H. I have yet to shoot any game with it but I have no doubts as to its lethality. I have been doing a lot of load development shooting with my .405 Grenadier wildcat. It shoots the same .411 bullets. It is to the .400 H&H what a .375 Whelen is to the .375 H&H. Nevertheless, the bullets have been reeking havoc on my shooting berm. The 400 grain bullets especially. They have uprooted small trees and plowed deep wide holes with chips and clay flying everywhere. This was not a problem when I was shooting .450 NE into it. I will soon be working up loads for the .400 H&H and I am considering going to a public range to do that because I don't want to destroy my home berm!

The sectional density of the 400gr .411 bullet is about the same as a 500gr .458 bullet, 0.338 vs. 0.341, but the 400gr bullet of the .411 is going significantly faster than you will be getting a 500gr bullet to shoot from a .458 Winchester Mag.

As to barrel length, I think 24", 25", or 26" are best for the .375 H&H. For the .400 H&H I would think 22", 23", or 24". My .400 H&H rifle has a 24" barrel but if I had it to do over I would have ordered a 22".

As to long range performance, just how far are you planning on shooting? Shooting the Woodleigh 400gr SN at a muzzle velocity of 2310 fps, not a max load even from a 22" barrel, and the rifle zeroed for 175 yards will send the bullet to a height of +2" at 100 yards and a low of only -2" at 200 yards.

Recoil of the .400 H&H is calculated/supposed to be more than that of the .375 H&H but I can't tell the difference. I think the lower velocity and a little bit more weight in the .400 are responsible for that.

I do not think the .400 has quite the versatility of the .375 but it definitely packs a bigger punch. I also think the .400 is much more versatile than the .458 Win Mag and, for all practical purposes, packs just as big a punch. For one rifle, the .400 is a great choice. For two rifles, I believe someone would be better suited with a .300 and a .400 than they would with a .375/.458 pair, a .300/.375 pair, or a .300/.458 pair. That's just my worthless opinion but rifle orders from one firm indicate I am far from alone in that opinion.

Last month's Sports Afield has a Boddington article on the 400. Dakota is making them now, and that's what he tested, synthetic and coated. Granted every writer loves every gun ever put in their hand, it seems to have a lot going for it. 400s in the 2300 range, 350 and 300s in the high 2000s. 41 mag bullets for plinking/ practice. Less recoil than the 416s, so a lighter rifle could be built. High SD, decent, not great, but decent selection of bullets. I'm pondering this same choice right now, with a magnum mauser on its way next week. I've got an extra 375 barrel....but.... that 400 just has a cool factor.

No dog in this fight. I'm ignorant about 400hh. On the other end, you could resell a 404 or 416 easier. And I just reread Kambaku, Manners cut a swath with the 375.

The 400HH is cool but might as well be a wildcat. I think the path of least resistance is the 400 Karamojo. What is the 400 Karamojo you say? It is simply the 375 HH necked up to .410". If you have a donor 375 HH to start with, you could rebore and use a .410 neck/throat pilot.

From the Karamojo thread...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Enabled by boom stick, good Lord deliver us, as the nightjar would say:







It can easily be a 7-shooter in a CZ 550 Magnum.

Take your pick for the poor man's DGR with bona fides,
either a 7-shooter .458 Lott or the more gentlemanly 7-shooter "400 Karamojo."

I bet W.D.M. "Karamojo" Bell would prefer the 400 Karamojo.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
The .400 HH is cool but might as well be a wildcat.

Really? The .400 H&H is a standard CIP cartridge. There are well established European, British, and USA gun making firms that offer it as a chambering. It may be an esoteric cartridge but it is NOT a wildcat. And, FWIT, consider that the .375 H&H appeared in 1912 but didn't become popular until several years after Winchester started chambering rifles for it in 1925. It's been 14 years since Holland & Holland introduced the .400 H&H but it took about twenty years for the .375 H&H to really begin to take hold.

Boomstick, as great as it may be, it is your cartridge that is the wildcat.

I like the 400 HH and you are correct as always, it is SAAMI/CIP but it is not something you will find on many shelves was my point that was not well communicated. If someone wants the 400 HH I applaud them for taking the path less traveled. If you want to go even less traveled and make your own trails, there is an option in the 400 Karamojo

Midway doesn't have ammo.

375 hh -- i've literally never seen a box of 400hh brass anywhere -- if your mission is a backup rifle in Africa -- 375hh

And no animal would ever know the difference!

Pick the one you like best.

I've been shooting the 400H&H since 2011.
Brass can be found easily at Quality Cartridge or made from 375 brass for practice. Bullets are becoming more numerous, North Fork just offered 400gr Softs and Solids and have a 300gr and 360gr as well. Barnes has 300gr and 400gr TSXs and CEB has 400gr solids and 370gr Raptors, Hawk has numerous offerings in .411dia.
I have been using Varget to get the 400gr bullets comfortably down range at 2400fps and H4198 will send the 300gr down range at 2700fps.
I have shot a Buff in 2012 with a 370gr CEB Raptor a cow elk and numerous piggies with the 300TSX and my favorite varmit load is a 300gr Hornady built for 405 win velocities at 2700fps turns everything into a grey mist...
On the same hunting trip in which I shot my Buff I also shot a Cow Ele with my 450 NE, the 400H&H was my intended backup using 400gr CEB solids for my Ele.
I will be in Zim this August for a Buff and Eland hunt hoping to shoot my Buff with my Double and bringing the 400 for the Eland and as a scoped backup for Buff. I am just know working up loads for the 400 using NorthFork 400 softs and Solids.
My only problem with a .410 dia cartridge is that the majority of the bullets made for that caliber seems to be for the 450-400 and the are not constructed stout enough for higher velocities.
As Boddington asks Does the industry need another 400 caliber cartridge?
Since when has that ever stopped any of us?

I was just in the Tanganyika Arms store in Arusha and noticed a box of 416 Remington ammo in the display case. If you are thinking 'long action', .532" casehead, then the 416 Remington is the practical cartridge of choice.

If you want a standard-length action, then the 416 Ruger awaits you. (I'm going to talk myself into one of these, one of these years.)

If you would accept a .590" casehead and you handload, then the 416 Rigby is your screaming meanie of choice.

For Africa the .416"s pack a bit more punch than the .375". They work in North America, too, although the .375" would allow for very slightly flatter trajectories than the factory 416s. However, the hand-loaded 416 Rigby, shooting 350 grain TTSX at 2800-2825fps shoots as flat as a 338 WinMag.
The 350gnTTSX (BC .444) sighted in 2.1" high at 100 yards is only down -6.7" at 300 yards and -20.4" at 400 yards. That would be one powerful elk load, at any range, not to mention Kodiak. It delivers 3570 foot-pounds at 400 yards, behind its expanding .416" diameter bullet. That is a lot of smack. Boom!

Thank you for the comments guys. I can't seem to shake the want for this caliber. It seems to have allot going for it. It's a caliber you can grow old with, nice trim light rifle, as recoil becomes an issue it can be loaded down to 2150fps (450-400 velocity). Pussycat.

I actually like the limited selection of bullets, fewer things to think about. It fits a standard magnum action well and a better case design than the 416 Rem

That 317grn GSC has a ballistic coefficient of .428 not bad considering it would launch at 2700 + fps, should be an honest 300 + yard rig. Being honest with myself i have no business shooting at game past that.

First world problems...

I own a .375 H&H for general hunting purposes. But for Africa and really big stuff, I think the .400 H&H is an outstanding bolt rifle cartridge, and has better longer range capabilities.

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
I own a .375 H&H for general hunting purposes. But for Africa and really big stuff, I think the .400 H&H is an outstanding bolt rifle cartridge, and has better longer range capabilities.

Can you explain it's better long range capabilities?

I'd like that answer also. The 375 H&H with the 270 TSX or 250 TTSX is going to be hard to beat for a big boomer NA cartridge and with 300 gr solids it certainly will kill any elephant you'll encounter.

Mark

The trajectories are nearly identical out to 300 yards at which distance the .400 gives up nothing to the .375 and still makes a bigger hole.

Zero both the .375 H&H with Woodleigh 300gr SN and the .400 H&H with Woodleigh 400gr SN at 175 yards and they have nearly the same trajectoriy, so close that they are only 3" apart at 300 yards.

Zero both the .375 H&H with Speer 235gr SP and the .400 H&H with Hornady 300gr SP at 200 yards and they have virtually the same trajectory, so close that they are only 2" apart at 300 yards.

At 300 yards the above loads still carry the following energies:

.375 H&H 300gr Woodleigh @2645 fps from the muzzle - 2099 ftLbs @ 300 yard

.400 H&H 400gr Woodleigh @2375 fps from the muzzle - 2373 ftLbs @ 300 yards

.375 H&H 235gr Speer @2850 fps from the muzzle - 2095 ftLbs @ 300 yards

.400 H&H 300gr Hornady @2700 fps from the muzzle - 2007 ftLbs @ 300 yards

Chart and tables are here:
http://www.shooterscalculator....chart.php?t=bf0bd142

.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
http://www.shooterscalculator....chart.php?t=bf0bd142

Thanks! nice chart option on that calculator. Nice calculator!

I forgot to mention that the .400 H&H 400gr and 300gr bullets have higher sectional densities than the .375 H&H 300gr and 235gr bullets respectively. It DOES make a difference.

.411 400gr SD = 0.338

.375 300gr SD = 0.305

.411 300gr SD = 0.254

.375 235gr SD = 0.239

.

For those here who have a 400 H&H, I would be interested in hearing more specifics about the barrel you used - manufacturer, caliber (i.e. .410, .411, etc), twist rate, contour, length.

Mine is a Whitworth Express that was re-barreled by one of the gunsmiths who regularly posts in AR. I asked him to re-barrel the rifle to .400 H&H and he did. I didn't ask for the specs. I do not know who made the barrel.

Holland & Holland, other UK gun makers, and European gun makers build .400 H&H rifles to CIP specifications (http://www.cip-bobp.org/homolo...iiical-en-page30.pdf).

CIP specifies:

Bore diameter = 10.24 mm (.403")

Groove diameter = 10.44 mm (.411")

Cross Sectional Bore Area = 84.39 sq mm (.130805 sq in)

Projectile (bullet) diameter = 10.44 mm (.411")

Barrel twist = 1 turn in 305 mm (1 in 12")

Number of grooves - 6

Unless the customer requests otherwise, that is what US gunsmiths should be doing as well. Unfortunately, most US barrel makers only offer .410" barrels and/or .412" barrels and a 1:14" twist. McGowen .412" barrels for my .405 Grenadier wildcat, for instance, are .402"/.412" with 1:14" twist. They have a cross sectional bore area of .131316 sq in. That's close to the CIP standard above and will make a .400 H&H rifle but the specs are not where they really should be.

Chamber reamers made to CIP specifications are already available in the US. If I was having a custom .400 H&H rifle made I would insist it be barreled and chambered to the CIP specs.

.

Don't forget you can run the North Fork 360gr with more velocity, less recoil than the 400gr and still have a .304 SD to comparable to the 300gr .375

quote:

At 300 yards the above loads still carry the following energies:

.375 H&H 300gr Woodleigh @2645 fps from the muzzle - 2099 ftLbs @ 300 yard
.400 H&H 400gr Woodleigh @2375 fps from the muzzle - 2373 ftLbs @ 300 yards

.375 H&H 235gr Speer @2850 fps from the muzzle - 2095 ftLbs @ 300 yards
.400 H&H 300gr Hornady @2700 fps from the muzzle - 2007 ftLbs @ 300 yards

Might as well add the 300 yard statistics for the 416Rigby, hand loaded with 350gnTTSX:

.416 Rig 350gr TTSX @2820 fps from the muzzle - 4126 ftLbs @ 300 yard

(and only -6.7" at 300 yards, sighted in +2.0"@100yards [+2.1" max at 122 yards, still +0.5" at 200], 3500ft elevation)

That 300-yard remaining energy of 4126ft# is almost the level of the 375H&H at the muzzle. Of course, the lower energies of the tables for the 375 and 400 are hurt by poor BC's in the comparison bullets. Better bullets would help in the comparison with the 416Rigby, but they can never be started at the 6200-ftlbs. of the Rigby.

If a person already has a 400 H&H in an appropriate long/magnum action, then there is little practical reason for upgrading to the Rigby and I would be more than happy to hunt with it. (I might pick up a similar-capacity 416 Ruger someday.) However, when considering a rebarrel or rifle build to 40 caliber, then a 416 Rigby should be considered as having a more-fitting relative capacity for 40-41 caliber in a long action. I would recommend a barrel twist of 12" or 14" rather than the traditional 16.5" in order to stabilize any of the long range bullets offered by CEB and to better guarantee straight-line penetration by heavy solids.

416Tanzan - I was trying to use comparable light and heavy bullets and not cherry pick for exceptions. But exceptions can be found for both calibers. For example, in .375 there is the 300 grain Sierra Spitzer Boattail and the dandy Hornady 250 grain GMX Boat Tail. For the .400 there's the Barnes 300 grain TSX and from Swift are the 350 and 400 grain A-Frame bullets with B.C.s of .321 and .367 respectively.

Looking at all the possibilities is fun but if one is to use one special bullet for one caliber one must use a similar bullet in the other caliber to make a valid comparison.

Shilen makes a nice .404-bored/.411-grooved barrel, alas of 1:14" TWIST.

Any .416-caliber or .411-caliber bullet can be easily sized for a .410-grooved barrel.
In the case of the Barnes bullets, that will undoubtedly improve their accuracy.

MY BLAST FROM ANOTHER THREAD:

Whatever floats your boat.
I know what floats mine, and the 400 H&H is more like a hole in my boat hull,
while the .410/404 JRNE is the rising tide.

Look at the oddball C.I.P. certified barrel specs for the 400 H&H
compared to the R.I.P. certified barrel specs for the .410/404 JRNE:



If both are loaded to same C.Oa.L., the .410/404 JRNE has a 10% greater case capacity.
If loaded to 3.750" C.Oa.L., the .410/404 JRNE will have 20% greater Case capacity than the 400 H&H at C.I.P. spec.

Lower pressure or higher velocity or both, with the .410/404 JRNE.

And think about the cost of brass for headstamp match.
Not a problem if using "404 Jeffery" brass for the ".410/404 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express."

The 400 H&H brass is also subtly different from the standard H&H head, belt, and rim specs.
My source is Piere van der Walt.

Higher priced, harder to find reloading dies for the exotic and rare proprietary 400 H&H?
Use the common 404 Jeffery and 450/400 NE 3" dies from multiple makers, plus a Lee factory crimp die, for the .410/404 JRNE.
RCBS and Hornady dies galore.
I already have them, before the rifle is built.

What bullets do you use in the 400 H&H? .410-caliber or .411-caliber of course.

What bullets do I use in the .410/404 JRNE?
Anything I can size down or bump up to .410-caliber, if they are not .410-caliber to start with.
.410-caliber is more common than .411.
And from excellent results with .423-caliber bullets in my .425-grooved 404 Jeffery rifles,
I predict that any of the .408 bullets will work in the .410-grooved barrel,
as long as they are not too long for the 1:14" twist.

The 400 H&H would be easier to make a seven-shooter (6 + 1),
but that can also be done with the .410/404 JRNE bolt-action.

The only truly admirable aspect of the 400 H&H is the 1:12" twist by C.I.P.
At least with that twist, the bullet revolutions per second are the same as the number of feet per second of the muzzle velocity.

A 1:10" twist on the .410/404 JRNE might be mo'better at turning pistol bullets into 3400 fps puffs of smoke.

The .410/404 JRNE is a prettier cartridge than the peculiar 400 H&H.

Finally, I get to specify the throat, on the .410/404 JRNE (Cosmic Squirrel Secret),
and it is not a tight, short, leade-only throat that limits the C.Oa.L., the way I suspect the 400 H&H throat does.

There is more than one way to skin a wildcat.
Riflecrank Incurable Permanente

RIP, as always you make a good case for the .410.

But when all is said and done and the smoke settles, I'll be hand loading the 416 Rigby for even better stats. At least until I get old and downsize to the 416 Ruger.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
416Tanzan - I was trying to use comparable light and heavy bullets and not cherry pick for exceptions. But exceptions can be found for both calibers. For example, in .375 there is the 300 grain Sierra Spitzer Boattail and the dandy Hornady 250 grain GMX Boat Tail. For the .400 there's the Barnes 300 grain TSX and from Swift are the 350 and 400 grain A-Frame bullets with B.C.s of .321 and .367 respectively.

Looking at all the possibilities is fun but if one is to use one special bullet for one caliber one must use a similar bullet in the other caliber to make a valid comparison.

Grenadier--
I agree with you 100%.
I would certainly prefer comparing good BC bullets.

And when that is done the 416 Rigby will still stand out as awesome. As for special bullets, other bullets than the .416" 350gnTTSX .444BC are available, like several CEB and GSC offerings, not to mention Nosler Partion 400gn and a couple of Swift A-Frames. I chose the TTSX as a readily available all-around hunting bullet with which I happen to have a bit of experience.

And you have to admit that a .416" sighted in 2" high at 100 and only dropping -6.7" at 300yards with 4100 ft# way out there would be an awesome elk rig.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
RIP, as always you make a good case for the .410.

But when all is said and done and the smoke settles, I'll be hand loading the 416 Rigby for even better stats. At least until I get old and downsize to the 416 Ruger.

And regarding my .416 Rigby, "From my cold, dead hands ..." also.

Then there is a 400AR (10x43mm) wildcat:

https://400ar.wordpress.com






THE FEW THE PROUD THE 395 FAMILY
Rip

I feel sorry for the OP. He started a thread asking for information and opinion as to which cartridge, .375 H&H or .400 H&H, to use for a specific purpose. But the thread has once again morphed into an opportunity for people to extol and promote their favorite .41 caliber, along with the inclusion of page filling pictures that have nothing to do with the original question. It has even degraded to the point that we are now discussing short .40 caliber cartridges for the AR15!

Since we have strayed so far from the OP I will take the opportunity to say that the one and only .41 caliber cartridge to own and use is the 10mm Auto. None of the other cartridges mentioned above are available in weapons with high capacity magazines. None that is except the .400 AR but the .400 AR cannot be used in a firearm suitable for concealed carry like the 10mm can.

So, the simple answer to the original post is this, neither the 375 H&H nor the 400 H&H are suitable as a backup weapon. Neither one.

Take a concealed 10mm auto instead.


Sorry, Double BC, at least some of us tried to stay on topic. If you provide your address perhaps the others can simply send you a copy of Cartridges Of The World.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
I feel sorry for the OP. He started a thread asking for information and opinion as to which cartridge, .375 H&H or .400 H&H, to use for a specific purpose. But the thread has once again morphed into an opportunity for people to extol and promote their favorite .41 caliber, along with the inclusion of page filling pictures that have nothing to do with the original question. It has even degraded to the point that we are now discussing short .40 caliber cartridges for the AR15!

Since we have strayed so far from the OP I will take the opportunity to say that the one and only .41 caliber cartridge to own and use is the 10mm Auto. None of the other cartridges mentioned above are available in weapons with high capacity magazines. None that is except the .400 AR but the .400 AR cannot be used in a firearm suitable for concealed carry like the 10mm can.

So, the simple answer to the original post is this, neither the 375 H&H nor the 400 H&H are suitable as a backup weapon. Neither one.

Take a concealed 10mm auto instead.



Sorry, Double BC, at least some of us tried to stay on topic. If you provide your address perhaps the others can simply send you a copy of Cartridges Of The World.

Ha, this is half the fun of AR. We did get some good info out about the 375 vs 400

One thing I can say about the 400 bores, is that they would be allot more popular if they were standardized. 408,410,411 jeesh just pick one already.

Although presumably the 411 could safely shoot them all.

And, I dare say, .412" .405 Win bullets as well.

Just for fun I was shooting some 430 grain paper patched lead bullets. I ordered them sized to .410" and that brought them to about .412" with fine paper. I shot them at low velocity and they seemed okay. But the bits of paper spit out of the muzzle looked like confetti. It was too distracting so I stopped pursuing a good load.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
And, I dare say, .412" .405 Win bullets as well.

Yup forgot those ones.

DoubleBC,

Aren't you glad you asked? It's like Google images, no matter what topic you started with, if you scroll down far enough there will eventually be a picture of a naked person.:-)

quote:

Originally posted by Bitterroot:
DoubleBC,

Aren't you glad you asked? It's like Google images, no matter what topic you started with, if you scroll down far enough there will eventually be a picture of a naked person.:-)

Ha, true but fortunately i think we got enough information to decide!

Gentlemen,

I resemble those remarks!

But I have not found any google images of a "naked person" related to the 400 H&H ... yet.
Will post if I do.

THE FEW THE PROUD THE 395 fAMILY

There are a few tarts in the 577 T-Rex Google images though. Guess the 400 H&H isn't racy enough.

Tarts? I didn't see any. Not that I was looking or anything.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Pick the one you like best.

That is probably the best answer for just about every "which calibre" question and especially for a guns and ammo enthusiast.