Where in Cali are you?
Don't confuse popularity with performance. Read the Terminal Bullet Performance thread that is at the top of this big bore forum.

Read it, surprised that I'm not reading more about CEB in the past two years. Still hearing TSX and a-frame as african stalwarts.

Took a while for people to use automobiles over the trusted horse

The new game in town are the CEB Lazers: copper raptors with very high BC, but only in medium calibers.

My bullet choice depends on caliber. In 416 I like the 350 gn TTSX because of BC. In .510 I like the 350gn brass raptor with the tip installed and the GSC 450grain. Both are great bullets but I still havent brought my 500 to Africa. I prefer a heavy hitting caliber that has some ranging qualities for plains game.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Where in Cali are you?
Don't confuse popularity with performance. Read the Terminal Bullet Performance thread that is at the top of this big bore forum.

That's a great thread but almost exclusively focused towards solids at least it was when I quit following it about a year ago. I'd like to see the same focus on expanding bullets especially for big bores. A perfect expanding bullet every single time penetrates, expands and holds together (90 plus percentage retained weight) at extremely close range, and maintains much of it's shape. That same bullet should still expand every time out past 300 yards. If it doesn't in my opinion, it's not a premium bullet.

I'd love to see a detailed comparison with the same depth of discussion that's been had in the terminal bullet performance thread

From the list provided I selected the North Forks.

I also voted Northfork. I chose the northforks because they shot very well in my gun. The standard deviation was single digits for the northforks in the same loads as other bullets. The performance on game is outstanding and animals died fast.

Lots of good bullets out there, find one that shoots and go hunting.

Too bad y'all didn't plan ahead enough to store up a supply of Bitterroot Bonded Cores.

If you want picture perfect mushrooms, then two bullets stand out over the rest and are boreingly perfect...The North Fork soft point and the Swift Soft Point, recovered they both look exactly the same every time..

Neither of which are my favorites, as they tend to be smooth and don't have those jagged saw like blades as you see on Woodleighs and GS Customs..I suppose if I had to pick one,which I hope I never have to do because Im an old bullet digger, that's part of the fun..Id just pick a Nosler partition and do the best I can and actually Ive recover more WW powerpoints than any other and it always works.

I have been trying to pick the best bullet for 82 years now, I still don't know..You have to ask the boys that have shot one or two head of big game, they know the answer!

Keep in mind that polls mean very little, look at the last presidential election, too many voters and experts didn't know zilch, and they base opinion on whatever!

My African exploits pale compared to many (most) here, but have done Cape Buffalo and Lion, both .375 H&H. I used two very different bullets, 300gr TSX for Buff and 300gr Interocs, widely viewed as a junk bullet, for Lion. Took numberous plains game with 235gr Speer Hotcors, 270 and 300gr Interlocs, 270 and 300gr TSXs. My favourites at the time were the TSXs but I couldn't ignore more spectacular bang flops with the cheaper bullets, granted these pertain to species lighter than buffalo though many still not small (Zebra, Wildebeest, Gemsbok etc).

Now fast forward to home where I outfit and guide coastal Grizzly / Brown bears, Moose, and Mountain Goats in volumes to form opinions with some leg to stand on. This improved performance from slightly more lightly constructed bullets continued to be evident, however a particular recipe needs to be in place. The results I like occurred with fast loads, and a bullet that violently disrupts tissue, and doesn't exit. Exits are now in my view wasted energy your shoulder enjoyed Newton's law thereof for little reason- below big bovids, elephants, hippos and such. On those that excessive penetration is necessary in my view.

I've just recently been sponsored by CEB (full disclosure), and am considering loading my client loaner rifle with them, and my personal backup .375. I'm feeling pretty good about them academically but will have to wait on a formal opinion until after a couple seasons and testing them on black bear hunts. They seem to have both the tissue disruption I like, and the penetration, a rare combination. The Partition does an admirable job of this mix too it should be noted if moved fast enough, as does the Accubond. The quickest kill I've seen on a big bear was the .300 Ultra with a 180 Accubond, no heavy penetrator, but kills like lightning. I don't think you need that much speed but no denying it works, I like 2,500fps and up for big bears. Only taken one Lion but I liked that recipe there too.

What puts a tense smile on my face admittedly is African dangerous game style loads for big bears- heavy for caliber, stiffly constructed bullets. It's a different mechanism of terminal effect I'm after on them than those loads provide. Did two Grizzly / Browns with 200gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claws from .300 Win in September, impacting the bears around 2,000-2,100fps at the range shot. With good hits they had time to spin and look at the hit, try and figure what was going on whilst two more good hits were made on one and one more on the other, and one ran the five yards back into the river and died, going downstream fast. No load can be counted on to kill like lightning, and both these bears discussed were dead on their feet. But you sure see a more impressive effect, more often, with more speed and a bullet that violently disrupts tissue.

If it does less meat damage, it delivers less shock, and bears are much more susceptible to shock than buffalo. I'm not trying to say the stiffer heavier bullets don't kill, they certainly do! They just aren't as likely to anchor soft dangerous game on their own shadow as something faster and more violently expanding. There are thresholds here, I don't profess varmint bullets, I like properly motivated Partitions, Accubonds, Hotcors, etc. Even the DGX does well and seems its too-soft-for-buffalo construction works alright on bears (.375, top bear pictured). Like I said big hopes the CEB Raptor proves to be perfection after a bunch of testing, no Grizzly / Browns dropped by them yet. I came across them because I was daydreaming my ultimate bear bullet, a mono that fragments petals reliably, and a friend said "You know a company called CEB makes that."

You look incredibly young to have all that experience,,Good for you, you had a dream and you took advantage of it..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
You look incredibly young to have all that experience,,Good for you, you had a dream and you took advantage of it..

Thanks Ray, I'm a mid thrirties father of three that just hasn't slowed down. Figure that keeps one young, maybe I'll have a rude awakening to the contrary down the road.

Like you said go after your dreams and seize them, hasn't been easy and still isn't, but long term worth it.

I dont know about how the smaller calibers work with big bears but in 416 and 458 carts. The tough expanding bullets work very good at close range. I think high speed definately helps but a friend has capsized several fleeing bears with 350 gr Speer HotCore 416 bullets , mv 2400 fps and 400 gr Woodliegh mv 2300 fps. I dumped several brown bear with 300 gr 416 TSX @ 2800 fps impact vel, 325 gr X @ 2575 fps impact. 350 gr X and TSX 416 bullets@ 2500 fps + impact vel. . 300 gr X bullet 458 @ 2650 fps impact vel, . 350 gr X, TSX and Speer Hot Core @ 2450-2500 fps . 400 gr Kodiak Bonded Core 458 @ 2350 fps impact vel . 450 gr Swift A-Frame @ 2100 fps and both 500 gr Hornady Rn Sp and 510 gr Winchester impact vel 1900-2150 fps.
All these resulted in instant on the ground stops with thoracic cavity hits . Some from behind as the bear fled . None of these bears were shot at further than maybe 35 yards max . Some at not more than 15 feet.
Guys I know have used 416 400 gr A-Frame , 458, 400 gr Trophy Bonded BearClaw ect. Resulting in instant on the ground die and drop simultaneously.
When I bear hunt with someone I have 2 rules . #1 no long shots #2 if the bear doesn't instantly drop at their shot. I dump it.
I don't do it for money, goods or services. I just love killin bears. And I've lived where there were lots of brown bear.
One of my guide friends says , Wider is Better.

Angus I did the same thing many years ago and your right it was hard, Most of the time I had a real job to keep me going, but about 20 of the 40 years was in the business full time. The last few years Ive quit going to shows, and mostly hunting old clientele. Doing some hunting and fishing on my own as well as team roping steers simi pro with my kids and grandkids...

At 82 its been the good life and still is. I feel I was blessed by health and opertunity. I wish you the same....

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Angus I did the same thing many years ago and your right it was hard, Most of the time I had a real job to keep me going, but about 20 of the 40 years was in the business full time. The last few years Ive quit going to shows, and mostly hunting old clientele. Doing some hunting and fishing on my own as well as team roping steers simi pro with my kids and grandkids...

At 82 its been the good life and still is. I feel I was blessed by health and opertunity. I wish you the same....

Thanks Ray, same situation here I fly helicopters in Northern Canada in the day job, and take the outfitting seasons off to run our operation. I fly through the short winter days and am in a remote camp 59 degrees north as we speak, tough life with little kids at home being here. Long term something has to give as I head to a show on my short days off as well. Busy is good but been too busy really, wife is the one who deserves all the credit for tolerating this life. Hope to cut out the helicopters in the near future and just fly my floatplane for outfitting. Likely too much info but got on a roll with a fellow who understands the life.

Angus and Ray,

Always love to hear the stories from guys that get to spend a lot more time in the wild than I do.

Lets all be honest with ourselves, today we have so many bullets out there that work like a charm its incredible, and Kudos to the bullet makers..Few of you have only heard of bullet failure, but I can remember when most failed one way or another, and I became an avid bullet digger, rolled up my sleeves and jumped headfirst into the blood and gore to see how my bullet performed..Only two bullets seemed to work everytime back then and that was the 30-06 180 gr. REm. RN Corelokt, and the 180 gr. WW Power Point, and amazingly those two work today just like they did bach when they both mushroom like toadstools from 1400 FPS to 3100 FPS, and that's a miracle..Test them if you must.

Bottom line is lots of good bullets today. Be hard to pick one over the other.

Partition is winning

The Swift A-Frame and Barnse TSX are tied at 22% each. The Nosler Partition, still has a respectable vote though.

Whether in camp or at a show, I always take the opportunity to ask a PH who hunts dangerous game what their favorite/ recommended bullet choice is. To the man they have all said A-Frames or TSX, your choice. Kind of funny that this poll really reflects that sentiment.

quote:

Took a while for people to use automobiles over the trusted horse horse Big Grin

CEB's = TSX that blows it's petals. Nothing new here, just a horse (or car) of a different color.

Justin,
You ain't wrong, the partition is the one bullet by which all others are compared..If a new bullet guy is pimping his bullet, the first thing he does is say his bullet is better than a Nosler..

Like Phil, schools still out on the CEB, until I know better...The claims are somewhat off the wall and turn me off...A bullet that works perfect on the smallest animals and and large African game sounds like a sales pitch to me.. I might give them a try, but only after some of my clients tell me about them and show me pics, however Ive seen a million pictures of perfect bullets in all brands, I have shoe boxes full of bullets Ive dug out of animals over the last 65 or so years, even the best don't always work, especially on big animal spine shots..I have my favorites that have worked well enough to impress me, Woodliegh, Nosler, GS Customs are among my favorite of todays bullets..I still like WW powerpoints and Rem. corelokts..

The real problem is these brands are used in all calibers and The WW Powerpoint works its wonders in the 180 gr at 2700 FPS 30-06...or the RN 180 Corelokt, but not the spitser corelokt..They don't work as well in the 7mms or other calibers..Therein is where this age old argument get hot and hollow.

Furthermore I doubt that anyone claiming a fast 300 gr. bullet in a 45 caliber rifle because of its velocity is deadlier than a 500 gr. bullet at 2100 FPS...I don't care what folks think about that I will maintain my opinion that the 500 gr. will always carry the mail best. High velocity is for small PG and deer if you don't mind eating blood shot meat..I have seen very fast light monolithics do tremendous to Buffalo shoulders and hide as they stopped penetration..To each his own and one can quote me all manor of circumstances on how his light fast bullet brought down a might Bear or Buffalo, as they do have their moments, but it and backfire in a heartbeat, not so the big heavy 550 gr Woodleigh or a heavy A frame or North Fork.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Angus Morrison:


If it does less meat damage, it delivers less shock, and bears are much more susceptible to shock than buffalo. I'm not trying to say the stiffer heavier bullets don't kill, they certainly do! They just aren't as likely to anchor soft dangerous game on their own shadow as something faster and more violently expanding. There are thresholds here, I don't profess varmint bullets, I like properly motivated Partitions, Accubonds, Hotcors, etc. Even the DGX does well and seems its too-soft-for-buffalo construction works alright on bears (.375, top bear pictured). Like I said big hopes the CEB Raptor proves to be perfection after a bunch of testing, no Grizzly / Browns dropped by them yet. I came across them because I was daydreaming my ultimate bear bullet, a mono that fragments petals reliably, and a friend said "You know a company called CEB makes that."


I'm fortunate to live and hunt in AK since my mid teens. (Other than a stint for Uncle Sam) I came to the same conclusion several years ago about partitions/accubonds at high speed. I know 3 other guides besides you who also agree on bears and moose. I've had great success with the 300 RUM since right after it came out. Don't normally use the bigger bores 338, 375, 416 etcetera anymore. Originally got the RUM for hunting trips on the north slope, very hard to accurately judge range. I've found that on chest cavity shots the RUM, With Premium Bullets, drops critters quicker than my 338 and comes very close to my 375AI when all three are using premium bullets. Another bullet I've been testing then using some is the 180 Nosler ETip at 3360. 3 bullets recovered from moose so far. All 3 weighed 178.1 or.2 grains. Only mono metal bullet I've tried that didn't shed the petals at RUM velocity and thus made a decent wound channel. I'm still believe the accubond/partition kills quicker on chest cavity hits. I also love the 180 partition gold, maybe my favorite. Hoarding the few boxes I've got.


After saying all that I recently fell into a deal I couldn't pass on for another new 416 Rigby. Love shooting the big bores. I will probably use it for spring bear this year. 400 nosler at 2550 shoots fantastic.

This rifle deserves to go on at least 1 hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Akhutr:
After saying all that I recently fell into a deal I couldn't pass on for another new 416 Rigby.

We shall never talk someone out of adding another rifle Probably the reason why each time I am on this forum I am on the look out for something new or different.

I can't figure out how a 300 RUM can kill faster than a 338 RUM. ???????
With your 416 Rigby. You could push a light weight GS Custom at well over 3,000 fps. That would be interesting . I know the 300 gr TSX. 416 bullet @ 2850 fps flattens bear. Over 3,000 fps should be quite spectacular.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I can't figure out how a 300 RUM can kill faster than a 338 RUM. ???????
With your 416 Rigby. You could push a light weight GS Custom at well over 3,000 fps. That would be interesting . I know the 300 gr TSX. 416 bullet @ 2850 fps flattens bear. Over 3,000 fps should be quite spectacular.

Just to clarify, 338 Win Mag. I don't think I specified.

Just on a point of order

Any bullet that by design sheds parts or the whole during penetration is called a frangible bullet and not a expanding bullet !

Lumping these designs under expanding bullets is wrong in that one is now comparing apples to oranges.

So bullets that by design lose the forebody as fragments / petals / or any other should be termed a semi frangible bullet ! The term used in German forensic literature is Splitter- geschosse


The mechanism of injury and injury effect well described and accounted for in wound ballistics science.

I would like to see the Swift A Frame with anti fouling bands like what Barnes did to their bullets.I had issues with accuracy in my 458's with their A-frames.I was hoping to ask someone at the Swift booth about this but it seemed their booth was always empty with no representative and the owner when there was to into the socializing scene.

The North Fork Soft Points have both driving bands as well as a solid base, both in my opinions advantages over the A-Frames. I do think the A-Frames are ane exceptional bullet as well, but the North Forks do have significant advantages. That being said the A-Frames are very accurate in my 500 Jeffery.

From a killing standpoint both the Swifts and North Forks work 99.9% of the time..

I prefer the North Forks for accuracy, but find no fault with either..In most cases it depends on the barrel when it comes to fouling..If I shoot Swifts in my .338 Custom Mauser they do not foul at all, but it has a Lothar Walthar barrel with their patented polish system...The same bullets in my Win. and several factory arms seem to coat the bore..

Ah, ok. Yup.

I know of several trophy size brown vear that have been taken with the 300 RUM and 30/378 . They seem to kill very fast if the bullet doesn't have to go thru alot of meat and bone before entering the thoraxic cavity. The rifles weight, length, recoil and blast combined with decreased performance on certain shots make them not a cart I would pick.
I think they are a prime example of ft lbs of energy doing its job.
A 180 gr bullet @ 3350 fps has similar ft lbs energy as a 300 gr bullet @ 2600 fps .
I would vastly prefer a 300 gr TSX. 416 bullet at 2600 fps from a nice little 18" barreled 416 Taylor . To a 26" barreled 300 ect.

Art Alphin worked hard and got it right with his Lion Load, Dead Tough and Monolithic Solid......and everyone else copied the concepts. I vote the Dead Tough for tough DG and the Lion Load for thin skinned game...and the MS for superior penetration on large DG such as Elephant/Buffalo/Hippo etc.

A-Square got it all started, regarding the super premiums. Nuff said.

So I'm switching from my 570g TSX at 2300 fps for my 500 Jeffery to either 570g A-Frames or 570g North Fork Soft Points (not really interested in the North Fork cup point). I plan to use them as my everything hunting bullet ranging from elk, to brown bear and cape buffalo if I ever get to Africa (two kids still in college). I know the A-Frames will work on all three animals (expand and still hold together). Has anyone used both, if so which did you like better?

There are velocity addicts and big bore addicts, Ive been both at one time or another as have most who have hunted a lot...

What I decided long ago it depends on what Im hunting..On buffalo I want a big stout 40 caliber 450 gr. Woodleigh soft or solid, don't care which...On bear I would prefer a fast heavy bullet like my .338 or 375. with 300 gr. bullets, but push come to shove I know a 30-06 with a 200 or 220 gr. Nosler partition will do the deed on both, but I always wonder if its going to take longer!!

I don't get the whole CEB Raptor thing.... solids, yeah got it, but their expanding bullets are VERY light for caliber.

Give me a good expanding Aframe, TSX, or NorthFork that is .300 SD or greater any day.

I've been a big bore, high velocity addict. 300 , 325 and 350 gr X, now TSX. As fast as they can be pushed from my 458 and 416s .
They are great killers. Would like to try some GS Custom HVs in both on bear. I dont know if they will work better. But probably at least as good. I'm not too crazy about the Raptor shape either.

One must get the terminology right.

No matter how often you call a crankshaft a camshaft, it will always be a crankshaft. No matter how much you call a tire a wheel, it will always be a tire.

Calling a grooved bullet a drive band bullet is not right. For the correct terminology and an explanation of how one arrives at it, see Drive Bands or Grooves.

Alf, I was wondering, what would you call a bullet that expands below a certain impact speed and expands and fragments above that speed?

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
One must get the terminology right.

No matter how often you call a crankshaft a camshaft, it will always be a crankshaft. No matter how much you call a tire a wheel, it will always be a tire.

Calling a grooved bullet a drive band bullet is not right. For the correct terminology and an explanation of how one arrives at it, see Drive Bands or Grooves.

Alf, I was wondering, what would you call a bullet that expands below a certain impact speed and expands and fragments above that speed?

Average.

I can vouch that the 380 gr. GS Customs is a great cape buffalo round, and I back them up with GS Custom FN solids...If I had to go with one bullets for everything in a 416 or 404 its would be the Cup Point, it expands a little and penetrates a lot, Id use that bullet on duiker or elephant..

Since NOsler moved the partition forward on the 400 gr. 416 bullet, its also one of my favorite bullets on any animal..

All is based on proper bullet placement, regardless of bullet, velocity, energy or any other method of whos who in gundome City.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
One must get the terminology right.

No matter how often you call a crankshaft a camshaft, it will always be a crankshaft. No matter how much you call a tire a wheel, it will always be a tire.

Calling a grooved bullet a drive band bullet is not right. For the correct terminology and an explanation of how one arrives at it, see Drive Bands or Grooves.

Alf, I was wondering, what would you call a bullet that expands below a certain impact speed and expands and fragments above that speed?

Average.

I guess I'd call it unacceptable. I would also call an expanding bullet that holds together at high velocity but doesn't expand at lower velocities that are within the reasonable range of the cartridge and game it is intended for just average.

One "expanding-frangible" bullet I have experience with has several useful attributes:

1. It expands into a 3-bladed propeller with attached drive shaft at impact velocities of 1600 to 2600 fps.


2. Upon impact at 2600 fps it jettisons 3 daisycutters and transforms into a bunkerbuster solid:


3. It is a drive-banded bullet that ALWAYS (repeatedly, ad infinitum) cuts my group size in half compared to what I can do with the "grooved" competitors.
The only interesting bullet is an accurate bullet, to borrow from Townie.



What do we call such a bullet?

How about "GSC HV" or "Walterhog?"

More generically, based on no. 2 attribute above, call it a TRANSFORMER!

Oh, copyright issues with the movie and toy franchise?

Then call it

"Expangible" or

"Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious."

Yep, that's it, just gotta license the word from Disney.

Certainly not "average" or "unacceptable." That is just not true. Fake news.

Here is one of my little checks on a Big Bore GSC bullet showing behavior with three different impact velocities: EXPANGIBLE



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