Are you saying that an average, typical, ordinary bullet won't fragment or partially fragment above a certain velocity? Or is your position that the same bullet won't expand and tend to hold together when the velocity is sufficiently reduced?

It depends on critter and velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Just on a point of order

Any bullet that by design sheds parts or the whole during penetration is called a frangible bullet and not a expanding bullet !

Lumping these designs under expanding bullets is wrong in that one is now comparing apples to oranges.

So bullets that by design lose the forebody as fragments / petals / or any other should be termed a semi frangible bullet ! The term used in German forensic literature is Splitter- geschosse


The mechanism of injury and injury effect well described and accounted for in wound ballistics science.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
One must get the terminology right.

No matter how often you call a crankshaft a camshaft, it will always be a crankshaft. No matter how much you call a tire a wheel, it will always be a tire.

Calling a grooved bullet a drive band bullet is not right. For the correct terminology and an explanation of how one arrives at it, see Drive Bands or Grooves.

Alf, I was wondering, what would you call a bullet that expands below a certain impact speed and expands and fragments above that speed?

Average.

Just lumping together traditional cup&core with the likes of a GSC HV as "average" is a lame response.
The cup&core expands nicely at low impact velocity, and totally sheds its core and fragments itself at higher impact velocity, sometimes in a pretty narrow velocity range of a couple or a few hundred fps.
I have certainly seen that with the old Hornady RNSP .458/500-grainer.

But the GSC HV begins expanding as low as 1500 fps and is still holding onto nose petals at 2500 fps.
That is a very useful 1000 fps velocity window for "expanding bullet" function,
but then it becomes a "semi-frangible" at higher velocities than that.
And at higher velocities still, the remaining penetrator-cylinder gets its nose expanded, in a secondary round of expansion.
The center of gravity shifts forward to stay on course, and the permanent wound channel widens again.


Interesting in my test that at 2700 fps the nose petals explode off the front of the bullet sooner than at lower velocity,
leaving a longer cylindrical shape at higher impact speed.
In the 2400 to 2500 fps impact, the petals adhere and open the bullet wider, and actually shorten the remaining cylindrical shaft.
Interesting.
The GSC HV expands to greater diameter at lower velocity than at higher velocity, comparing 2400 fps to 2700 fps impact, a "breakpoint" of approximately 2600 fps.
2. And if you drive them to even greater impact velocity than 2600 fps, they blow off the nose first and then expand after the hollowpoint is gone, if the penetration medium offers enough resistance.

And they are accurrate too, double interesting.
I think that is a killer app for a bullet.
GSC did this as a prototype for the .395/340-grain HV, and I think they got the EXPANGIBLE function just right on first try.
As to whether the drive bands match my rifling groove diameter, and the inter-band shaft diameter matches my rifling bore diameter ...
Well, certainly it is an improvement compared to "grooved" bullets.
I wonder if there have been a few instances where GSC did not get it "just right" on the first try,
and had to redesign the bullet in some way to perfect it?



X = Expanding Initial Phase Bullet
Y = Semi-Frangible Secondary Projectile Bullet
Z = Expanding FN Solid Terminal Phase Bullet

XYZ bullets, or
Initially Expanding, Secondarily Semi-Frangible, Terminally Solid Expanding Bullet: IESSFTSEB

Yep, that's what you call them, those GSC HV bullets.
Or just call them "superb."
Not "average" or "unacceptable."

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente

I'm not lumping anything in with anything. Im
just saying that just about any expanding bullet you can name
will fragment or Partially fragment above a certain velocity, and expand normally below that velocity. Obviously target density will play a part in what that velocity will be. The actual velocity wasn't even mentioned, never mind brand names.

Well since I'm not willing to entirely switch over to monolithic expanding bullets probably due to bias from being around when they first came out (they would occasionally fail to expand at all). I'm still looking for the perfect cup and core expanding bullet for dangerous game. Right now I and my boys are shooting A-Frames (300g in the 375, 400g in the 416 and 570g in my 500 Jeffery (I also shoot the 570g TSX), and they're really a good bullet. I wish the front half would expand a bit more easily and still hold together like the Woodleighs, and the base was entirely enclosed. But all in all, they're a great bullet, always expand, always hold together, though Saeed has posted pictures where the lead has started to squeeze out of the bottom on cape buffalo shoulder shots I believe?). I think at 500 Jeffery velocities with a 570g bullet that should be less of an issue. I do wish they made a .510 caliber 600g bullet (I have a 1 in 10" twist) though.

I'd like to find the perfect DG bullet too, and it hasn't been for lack of trying at least for buffalo. So far nothing has made a better showing than the A-Frames across the board. That's not to say that there aren't plenty of good ones out there. A couple of noticable downsides on popular bullets are the CEBs flying apart on contact with brush and the TSX's expansion going downhill fast as range increases. Its a little hard to stay enthusiastic about a bullet that breaks into 7 pieces before it gets there.

A way to get the A-Frame opening a little wider is to drop a weight. Try 270s in your .375, or 450s in the .458s. 350s in a .416 I suppose, though I never did it. Penetration won't be a problem. Bucking tradition is hard though.

From the SAAMI website at: http://www.saami.org/glossary/display.cfm?letter=B

BULLET, EXPANDING
A hunting bullet design that provides for controlled expansion upon impact.

BULLET, FRANGIBLE
A projectile designed to readily break up upon impact on a hard surface in order to minimize ricochet or spatter.

Bullet, semi-frangible I cannot find and I would be grateful to have a link to Splittergeschosse because my understanding of the term is different to Alf's. It seems that a bullet is either frangible or it is not. There seems to be no 'semi'.

Ag tog Gerard ! You read way to much into what I posted. There is no "definition" that states that its frangible and will break up completely or partially or how many parts or what the size of the parts have to be.

From a on the ground, in your face practical wound ballistics perspective the bullet either deforms , does not deform or it loses parts !

There is nothing more it can do !

So if we were to model wounding it can be due to 3 behaviours only ! Non deforming, Deforming and
breaking up !

If it loses parts it's frangible period !
Some blow up completely, some blow parts only fact is they lose parts so that the end result is a multiple of projectile each with their own SD, velocity and energy end of story ! and what is more the behaviour of the parts or whats left behind has specific characteristics and behaviours no more no less.

For super fast light bullet chamberings I say it is a TSX.For slow big bore chamberings I say it is the Woodleigh.Best is when a hunter gains the experience through trial and then decides for himself.

Swift A-Frames, Trophy Bondeds, or the old A-Square Dead Toughs.

quote:

If it loses parts it's frangible period ! Some blow up completely, some blow parts only fact is they lose parts so that the end result is a multiple of projectile each with their own SD, velocity and energy end of story ! and what is more the behaviour of the parts or whats left behind has specific characteristics and behaviours no more no less.

Interesting...

So a common C&C bullet is both an expanding bullet and a frangible bullet.
- Expanding when all variables are optimum, core and jacket remain attached, nose simply mushrooms.
- Frangible when all variables are not optimum, core and jacket separate or parts of core and jacket separate from bulk of the bullet.

Edit Added: Would "frangible" also cover:
- the Nosler Partition which is know for shedding everything in front of the partition under a select set of circumstances?
- or any bullet that sheds bullet weight post impact?

And all this time I believed a frangible bullet by definition "was a bullet designed to completely obliterated upon impact to minimize or eliminate penetration capability".

Why don't bench rest shooters use monometal bullets?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Why don't bench rest shooters use monometal bullets?

Too expensive with no benefit?

As a general rule . Mono's are more/too expensive. Course plenty of competition benchresters got much more money than sense.

They are just not as accurate as lead jacketed bullets-plain and simple.

The term "semi-frangible": I made that one up.
How about "hemi-frangible" or "pseudo-frangible" or ... no, enough!
It is sure better than calling a GSC HV, Nosler Partition, or CEB Raptor "frangible."

quote:

Originally posted by rodell:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Why don't bench rest shooters use monometal bullets?

Too expensive with no benefit?

I agree with that.
The best cup&core match bullet upsets easier than a monometal and fills the rifling grooves better,
maybe, without that expensive, precise CNC machining.
But could it possibly be any better than the best monometal for concentricity?

They can both be so good that difference in accuracy might not be measurable.

But the C&C does not have to serve as a big game bullet, can be truly and fully frangible, makes sense only for hunting tiny varmints.
And they are less expensive per bullet if a lot of shooting is done, i.e. match or dogtown, etc.
Good match and varmint bullet.

I would add that based on my experience with them,they do not remain accurate for long.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I would add that based on my experience with them,they do not remain accurate for long.

Because unlike true drive-banded monometals that fit the barrel properly, GROOVED monometals foul more?
Might be true.
Another reason why monometals might not be used for match shooting, even though they might be as accurate or better until fouling builds up.
Go easy with your abrasive paste bore cleaning and quit using those stainless steel brushes, shootaway: WIPEOUT

I find the below to be true. Someone needs to introduce a new word into the the conversation to deal with petal type expansion. Plus overexpansion happens; I think it is better than failing to expand. Just my 2 cents to the story. Well let me add that I am a Nosler Partition man. My PH in Africa is a huge fan of Hornady DGX. I have used DGX and DGS but not in Africa. I really used to like the old Hornady RN in my 375 H&H. I used to have a 416 Rem and a 338 Win Mag, all in M70's.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
From the SAAMI website at: http://www.saami.org/glossary/display.cfm?letter=B

BULLET, EXPANDING
A hunting bullet design that provides for controlled expansion upon impact.

BULLET, FRANGIBLE
A projectile designed to readily break up upon impact on a hard surface in order to minimize ricochet or spatter.

Bullet, semi-frangible I cannot find and I would be grateful to have a link to Splittergeschosse because my understanding of the term is different to Alf's. It seems that a bullet is either frangible or it is not. There seems to be no 'semi'.

Its not that complicated the more a bullet expands the less it penetrates. A perfectly expanded Barnes X for instance has very little if anymore expansion than a premium bullet such as a Nosler or Swift, whatever....It will however penetrate like the devil when it lays the the petals back or blows them off..

At any rate their is no best, there is only circumstance these days as we have so many "great" bullets out there...

Never judge a bullet by two or three kills, I see to much of that and its meaningless..Great bullets earn a reputation with hundreds of kills, such as the Rem Corelokt RN 30 caliber or the Nosler partitions..

quote:

Originally posted by airgun1:
I find the below to be true. Someone needs to introduce a new word into the the conversation to deal with petal type expansion. Plus overexpansion happens; I think it is better than failing to expand. Just my 2 cents to the story. Well let me add that I am a Nosler Partition man. My PH in Africa is a huge fan of Hornady DGX. I have used DGX and DGS but not in Africa. I really used to like the old Hornady RN in my 375 H&H. I used to have a 416 Rem and a 338 Win Mag, all in M70's.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
From the SAAMI website at: http://www.saami.org/glossary/display.cfm?letter=B

BULLET, EXPANDING
A hunting bullet design that provides for controlled expansion upon impact.

BULLET, FRANGIBLE
A projectile designed to readily break up upon impact on a hard surface in order to minimize ricochet or spatter.

Bullet, semi-frangible I cannot find and I would be grateful to have a link to Splittergeschosse because my understanding of the term is different to Alf's. It seems that a bullet is either frangible or it is not. There seems to be no 'semi'.

I agree mostly...

However, the Nosler Partition and common C&C bullets are covered by the "Bullet, Expanding" and both types of bullets are readily identified as separating (lead from jacket)under certain circumstances or fragmenting (nose, both lead and jacket together or separately fragmenting during penetration) under certain circumstances AND both types of bullets are known for shedding bullet weight during penetration.

So perhaps monometal bullets whose either nose mushroom or shred off as penetration circumstances dictate are properly covered by "Bullets, Expanding".

I think the CEBs are a great bullet on tough game like buffalo. I have shot a giant eland and buffalo myself and also seen 5-6 buff shot so far with these in 375 H&H and also 416 and they are very good. For medium to smaller plains game I think premium bullets are really not needed!

How do we classify bullets that are supposed to expand but don't reliably?

I never classify bullets other than making conversation..All that counts is results, and we have reached the ultimate with many good bullets..I have not had a failure in the last 10 years I guess..The last failures I had were with the early Nosler Bal. tips and the Barnes Xs..I think both problems have been fixed..

One thing Im sure of is you can't go wrong with a GS Customs, Woodleigh PP or RN, or Nosler partition or Accubond, or Northfork, and Ive left out a couple of others cuz mamas hollering come to supper!

As long as the bullet is properly weighted to the cartridge being used is placed in the CNR they will all kill just fine!
I like 300 gr Nosler Partitions and North Fork softs in a 375 H&H, and a 500 gr Swift A-frame in a 470NE, but all the bullets mentioned are good placed properly!

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