Is the 458 B&M the best short action big bore ever?
If not, what is?

I will agree that the 458 B&M is the most versitile big bore out there for a short action.

BUT

The one that gets Me is the one that has a 100 pounds of fight in a 10 pound body. The 458 B&M Super Short.
It has no idea how small it is.

Cheers, John

Would a hot loaded .45 Colt in a Ruger Blackhawk contest this for short-action Big-Bore?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Is the 458 B&M the best short action big bore ever?
If not, what is?

The only contenders I can think of is the 50 B&M and the 475 B&M.

Defined by Short Action.

Now, the 458 B&M can pretty much equal the 458 Winchester and do it with 18-20 inch barrels. While I have not done much work with this, I do have a 24 inch 458 B&M--In a Winchester M1885. Some years ago I tested a load with a 500 gr bullet that gave something like 2140 fps in 20 inches, and in that 24 inch gun it was touching 2200 fps. So it has been my belief because of that, the 458 B&M at 24 inches would surpass the 458 Winchester.

Which 24 inches of barrel on a bolt gun is far from where I want to be with the 458 B&M as a DGR. I say 20 max, and my personal guns are 18. When you can top the 450 BBW#13 Solid out at over 2200 fps in the 18 inch guns, that does anything I want to do, and gives all the penetration ever needed for anything that walks. Combine the 450 BBW#13 Solid with it's matching 420 BBW#13 NonCon and there is nothing you fall short of in the hunting world.

Personally I am not aware of anything that can even come close to it in a short action, short barreled rifle, with the exception of the new 475 B&M and the parent of both, the 50 B&M.

Where the 458 B&M might top out the other two is the immense numbers of cheap bullets to shoot and play with. But the 50 B&M might rival that as well, lot's of .500s out there too. The 475 B&M has some really good cheap bullets that one can play with as well, but probably neither has the numbers of the various 458 bullets from 300 gr up.

Max, I don't think a hot 45 Colt is even in the same class as the 3 Super Shorts! Like Phats says, they have no idea of how small they really are!

But Boomy, I have to say, while the B&Ms are good cartridges, and have exceeded everything I first had in mind for them, they are at their very best as a package deal.

Platform

Cartridge

Bullet

Combine those three and now you have something serious!

The 458 B&M is the Favored cartridge of all the B&Ms being built right now. But the 50 B&M is close on it's heels. This I understand from SSK that is doing the building. This in the bolt guns and not including the flurry of activity with the 50 B&M Alaskan in the lever guns.

Michael

Yes a whole system.
Erasing all tradition and history, a 7.5 Lb 18-20" barreled 458 B&M short action with great bullets is one "Fighting" winning combo.

In my opinion, yes. Which is why I had SSK build a .458 B&M for me to use on my next Ele this coming August.

in the 2.8 class? heck yeah, its fantastic.. though, of course, *I* would favor the .475 --

MM has done fantastic work, well thought out, and it delivers the lead

jeffe

I know what I said to Michael by active and passive, I would love to own a rifle in the cartridge 500 MDM. I want something bigger than my 458 Lott, but I'm realistic and know that I can not. Well, dream on free.

Regards,

Oscar.

I regard Jeff's cartridges as "short action" too since they will work through a 30-06 action. That being the case, I say the 500 AccRel is the best.

"Best" I would lean towards the 475 B-M

458 would be most versatile---except maybe for the 416 B-M (which I shoot)

They are all good- and I am surprised at the difference the short action makes.

SSR

Gents,
there isn't really a co-oper-tition between MM's and mine. His fit in the 2.8 length, short ones. Mine fit in the 3.35 length, standard, and the hercing full sized inefficient MONSTERS fit in bigger, more expensive actions.

MM's cases are the equal of cases .55 longer, and mine are the equal of about the same.

got a 308 length action? drop in a BnM.. Got a 3.35 length action? drop in an AR.

either will be a one round KO for whatever critter you hit....

mine just hit a little harder, but ar (pun intended) a little longer

Jeff pretty well covered things. Only comment I might add is that Michael's B&M cartridges are optimized for the M70 WSM action length which truly has an intermediate length magazine - that being a 3.1" magazine.

So if you have a M77 SA Ruger, a M7 SA Remington, or something similar - true <2.9" COAL - then I'd say the optimum B&M cartridge is the .458, .475, or .50 B&M SA cartridge!

So there Boomy...the best true SA cartridge is likely the .458 B&M SA cartridge!!!

Yes, yes it is!

Love to have me a 475 B&M!

The 475 was fun to shoot, the fire-forming loads as well as the full house loads. It was a hoot to think of how much power was in that little package...

This is like asking if Calvin Murphy was the best short NBA player.

The B&M is a great short-action 458 cartridge. The only thing close would be the 458 Alpine, sort of the same thing, though kept down to the case length of the .308 family (2.1" instead of 2.29") However, the Alpine equals the B&M balistically by having a neck that is too short. So I would vote B&M over Alpine.

But I still think in terms of 'standard actions'.

Anyone know what names are on a Rigby case shortened to AccR length and .458"?

Sort of a 460 vanHorn without the belt. Surely there are several wildcats like that.

I'm guessing about 112-114 grain water capacity if allowed 2.6" case length. Think
of it as a 500AccR necked down to 458.

Tan,

It's not a .458 caliber...but I have a .423 caliber on a 2.65" case length - also known as 10.74x68mm. Of course we also have the 12.7x68mm (aka: 49-10). I would think a standard length .416 and .458 would be just as neat.

The 458 B&M has one major problem that is shared with all of the rest of the wildcat cartridges mentioned here. If your ammo doesn't make the flight, you are screwed. Try to find some 458 B&M ammo in any African country. You can always find some 458 Win. ammo to get you through the hunt. Considering that the 458 B&M, as fine and as well designed as it is, has little if any ballistic advantage over the 458 Win. Mag, why take the chance?

465H&H

quote:

why take the chance?

Because I like to shoot my own ammo anyway. To me, borrowing ammo is like borrowing a gun. I've done it, sometimes for fun, sometimes because I've had to (e.g. busted scope).

We only feed our 416 Rigbys home-grown, fodder. I would feel pretty bad stuffing some factory loads into the things. For one, factory loads tend to use 400 grains and run about 400 fps slower than my 350 grain TSX's.

But I'll take a 500 AccRel over as soon as it's finished and I've got the ammo tested and loaded.

And because my hunting partner also ordered a .458 B&M - yes we planned it that way - we will both have the correct ammo and the odds of BOTH ammo boxes going missing is almost beyond the bounds of probability.

Hi 465HH, long time no hear? Now let's see here, I reckon you could find a lot of 465 H&H laying around when you were carrying that across the pond?

No, you are correct in a small way, ammo can be lost. But so can rifles? If your ammo is lost, so is your other bag with all that gear, and your clothes as well. I suppose one might find some old 458 Winchester ammo around somewhere, maybe something someone loaded for the PH 10 years earlier, and yes, I suppose one could obtain that, and hunt in the nude as well, neither really being much of a choice.

I quit counting the number of times I have been across the pond. Well in access of 25++. I just don't keep up with that anymore. In addition to that count in other parts of the world, I have only had my ammo lost 1 time, and that was going to the Arctic, not to Africa in 2009. Had my rifle, no ammo, but that is as much my fault as anything, I knew better, and did not split ammo because I only took 20 rounds.

Once I made the mistake of booking straight through to Zimbabwe, no stop overs in RSA. My rifles, ammo, clothes, everything got stuck in J'burg. Clothes and ammo made it the next day. No Rifles however. 3rd day, rifles finally came in after many phone calls and what have you. From that time on I made sure I had a day or two in RSA before going to Zim or any other part of Africa, collected all my things, never had an issue from then on, other than a day delay a couple of times, which ammo and rifles, clothes and all arrived the following day.

If you plan proper, this is just a non issue--one of those "What If This Happens", which of course it can, but it can with any cartridge/rifle.

Speaking of moving to this point--A Dangerous Game Rifle is a system, it's not the cartridge standing alone, it's not the rifle standing alone, it's not the bullet standing alone, but a combination of the 3---Rifle/Cartridge/Bullet. So what, if your rifles arrive, no ammo, and it's a common cartridge, maybe you find some in Africa on the shelves somewhere--What bullet? What Load? Will it really be as good as what you had brought for the mission? No, it won't, not if you are a student of Terminal Performance, not if you had taken the pains to study your mission, you cannot find ammo that will give you the opportunity to succeed as well as the ammo you had taken to begin with. What if the only ammo you can find is something that has been hanging around camp for 10 yrs that some chap loaded and left for your PH? Do you trust that? Hmmmmmm? I think not! I would just as soon spend my time trying to retrieve my ammo as to have to work with that.

Do you really think that you want to just find a box of ammo of some type and go on such an important mission?

This is where planning ahead saves your bacon. Split ammo is the most important thing you can do and the easiest. Normally you are not traveling alone. Split ammo with your hunting partner. He gets some of yours, you get some of his. Very much like Mike and Carl are doing with their 458 B&Ms, both have the same ammo! If like me traveling with Wife, split ammo with her. I normally have Mercedes along as well, she even gets ammo in her bags too! Split 3 ways!

I have traveled to several African countries, many times, I have been to Mongolia, Australia, Alaska, throughout our own Western states, New Zealand, Russia and of course Canada and the Arctic. Off all these times, 1 time no ammo, and just as much my fault as anyones--Had I split that 20 rounds like I always split, there would have been ZERO ISSUES, but I did not, I was stupid!

Moving to the comparison between 458 B&M and 458 Winchester--Yep, ballistic twins, so why on earth would anyone want a 458 B&M? Of course, if one can only think "Inside the Box" and that a cartridge is a stand alone issue, then of course there is no advantage compared that way. The 458 B&M is the Ballistic Twin of the 458 Winchester. That is a fact.

However, and here is the kick--The 458 B&M does it's thing in a rifle that is a full 6+ inches shorter, and 2 lbs lighter. It is the equal to 458 Winchester on a much shorter and lighter platform, and no, the 458 Winchester cannot match that platform and length and hold it's ballistic equivalent. You can't cut a 458 Win down and equal, don't work that way. You can't even do it in 22 inches of 458 Win. So, what is the big difference in 458 B&M and 458 WInchester--The platform!

Now, most don't understand this concept, until you lay hands on both at the same time. Folks very quickly put the 24 inch 458 Win down and it's a no brainer from there. There is a tremendous amount of difference in 6+ inches and 2 lbs weight. There is no comparison in how the two guns handle, feel, and come up. In a very very short time one begins to wonder why would I ever even consider carrying a 24 inch 10 lb rifle when I don't have to do so. I swear to you, even today when I just walk to the range with one of the 24 inch guns, 458, 458 lott, 416 remington, any of those, I wonder to myself how did I ever do this all those years and why? Never, Never, Never again will you catch me with something like that in the field. You may catch me with a 20 inch 9.3 B&M, but more likely a 19 inch gun, you might catch me with a 21 inch 500 MDM, but those days are limited as well, I just sent that Gunkote 500 To Brian to have it whacked down to 19 inches, I have plenty of power to spare in that. But more than likely what you will see me carry is a 458, 475, 50 B&M with their 18 inch barrels and 7.5-8 lb carry weights in wood stocks, drop that to 6.5 lbs for the Ultimate stock. My favorite Alaskan rifles are a pair of Win M70s 458 B&M and 416 B&M, both 18 inch barrels, Ultimate stocks, 6.5 lbs dry--F#####G MAGIC!

So why take the chance? That's why!

Michael

I do wish to add one note to the above statements.

If you are a "Common" hunter, not a shooter, student of Terminals, or very knowledgeable of shooting, bullets, ballistics or rifles, then the best thing you can do is stick with a "Common" cartridge. Since you are going to just be carrying factory ammo anyway, it's of little consequence anyway. And you should only carry a common cartridge.

Whether 458 B&M, or 458 AR, or any of the superior platforms and cartridge combinations, these are not for "Common" hunters to begin with. These are specialized platforms for experts in gun handling, shooting, terminals, and so forth. Experts and professionals will be smart enough to split ammo, and deal with the issues that arise from carrying such equipment, at least most of the time (yours truly included). There are pitfalls to consider, and none of which would be of value to "commoners" to begin with, as their lack of understanding is beyond the value they could gain, and the lack of skill with a superior platform would gain them no advantage to begin with.

To this point I would also recommend to those sort that they need a common cartridge, same as I always tell common hand gunners or beginners, get a Glock, not a proper platform like a 1911.

Very few "Common" hunters/shooters that are here on this forum. So sometimes I forget about the poor chap that is not as skilled as the rest of us nor has any inclination of gaining that skill.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Is the 458 B&M the best short action big bore ever?
If not, what is?

WRONG, Boomie

Everyone who knows and rounds with me will tell you that I AM the best short action big bore ... with emphasis on the "short" and "bore" depending on exactly who you might ask ...

Sorry, it's been one of those nights ...

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Is the 458 B&M the best short action big bore ever?
If not, what is?

WRONG, Boomie

Everyone who knows and rounds with me will tell you that I AM the best short action big bore ... with emphasis on the "short" and "bore" depending on exactly who you might ask ...

Sorry, it's been one of those nights ...

I hope your wife does not go around stating the same?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Is the 458 B&M the best short action big bore ever?
If not, what is?

WRONG, Boomie

Everyone who knows and rounds with me will tell you that I AM the best short action big bore ... with emphasis on the "short" and "bore" depending on exactly who you might ask ...

Sorry, it's been one of those nights ...

I hope your wife does not go around stating the same?

After 30 years, what do you think ...

Howdy Michael!

I'm still around except for trips pheasant hunting and breeding my dog. Just haven't had anything worthwhile to contribute.

The original question was which 45 caliber cartridge is the best in a short action rifle, not which platform is the best. You may prefer a 18" barrel rifle but I would bet that most 45 caliber rifle users would prefer a 22 or 24' barreled rifle. I also think that saying if you don't agree with me you are a commoner and I am more knowledgeable than you is a bit of an elitist attitude. I prefer a 22' 458 Win over any wildcat 458 caliber. I guess that I am a commoner with little actual experience.

I do carry a 1911 45 ACP though.

By the way, my Browning safari in 458 Win weighs 7.5 lbs with 24" barrel.

465H&H

465HH

Yes, I got an email about the doggies, thank you, but no thanks, I have enough issues without more doggies! HEH............. Hope the pheasants have been good to ya!

Well, Short Action/Platform hand in hand, same story. I will take the 18 inch bet with you on the 45 caliber cartridges! I have had way too many people lay hands on, experienced folks, and choose the short handy gun over the long gangly gun, every single time, to a man.

But you can't just compare over the internet, or the phone, or photos--It is a hands on sort of thing. You don't really get it until you lay hands on. I have both here, so it's easy for folks to pick both up and make a quick choice, and it is quick.

I did not say YOU were "Common". You may have taken it that way, but that was not the intention of. "Common" is folks who barely even shoot a rifle before going on a trip. Know nothing about what they are doing other than going on a hunting trip. Sometimes dont even shoot their rifle before arriving on their trip. Know little or nothing about ammo, not shooters, buy their main supply of ammo at Wally World, what have you. Hell no, my boy 465HH is not "Common" at all. As for my elitist attitude, well in many cases I won't entirely deny that, and it gets especially interesting when I decide a real "Common" individual has said just about enough of how knowledgeable he might be, just because he is on this elephant hunt, or what have you. I can only tolerate just so much stupidity you know! HEH...... I have been known to put folks in their place from time to time. Most of the time I am a rather humble individual.

quote:

I do carry a 1911 45 ACP though. Smiler

Well of course you do--Is there anything else? I think Not! I see what I mean!

As for your Browning, well you got the weight right, now you just need to drop some of that long cumbersome length! Then we are on the same page! HEH.............

Cheers old Buddy!

M

In a 3" Winchester mag you could do the 458 win mag but you would have to use 45-70 bullets
Maybe you would prefer that. Cut the 458 win mag back to 2.25" and use normal rifle bullets.
I still would pick the 458 B&M in a short action

465H&H:

Boy, am I ever glad that you are back!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
465H&H:

Boy, am I ever glad that you are back!

Thanks Dave!

465H&H

For me a short action is the M-16 magazine length.
So far none of the cartridges named above will fit into the 2.25 inch length test needed for the MIL SPEC.
Sincerely,

Title says 'BIG' bore, so when B&M gets
around to building one on my 577SHE,
which I sent some cases to check,
then they'll know what is the best
of the short big bores.There are 5
out there and guys says they're the most
fun gun they've ever shot.Ed

Yes Ed, Still have those, was not going to be an easy fit in any current M70. Oh, with lot's of work I imagine, but was no promises of a real working DGR. I would have been fine with two down, but it was going to be a mission.

I doubt it will ever come, but a year or so ago there was a small rumor that Win Might make a larger action that would handle the 585. Probably only a rumor, but I am still waiting on that one.

I am still with you however!

Michael

quote:

I doubt it will ever come, but a year or so ago there was a small rumor that Win Might make a larger action that would handle the 585. Probably only a rumor, but I am still waiting on that one.

That would rival the market for the CZ550. Is there enough market, considering the wandering that Wincester has done over the past three decades? It would be nice for the DGR crowd.

If Win brings out such an action for doing 585's, it could do Rigbys, Mbogos, and Gibbs'es.

An Honerable mention could go to the 12/20GFH shot from a Savage 210 or 220. The 50 BMG brass is thick enough at 2.25" to work as a nominal brass 12 gauge shell. The
12GFH short should be dandy.

Me, I still like the 50 B&M as the best short action big bore. Well, I too am really liking the new 475 B&M too. But then the 458 has a lot to offer? The 416 is very versatile! New Raptors coming, they will all be very versatile! Hmmmmmmm?, I am confused now?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Me, I still like the 50 B&M as the best short action big bore. Well, I too am really liking the new 475 B&M too. But then the 458 has a lot to offer? The 416 is very versatile! New Raptors coming, they will all be very versatile! Hmmmmmmm?, I am confused now?

Me, I would be partial to your 500 MDM for running a little more horsepower.

A question:
On AmmoGuide you have the following:
500 Cutting Edg… 102.0M Alliant/Herc Reloder-10x 2617 fps 7607 ftlb barrel 21.0"

That's a lot of energy. What do you really think the cartridge is good for?
Looking at the case capacity I would have thought that 6500, maybe stretching to 7000 ftlbs would be tops for hunting in Africa. Maybe 2400-2500 fps with the 500 grainers? (But we'll be using 425 Raptors, when the ship docks.)

Tanz

quote:

On AmmoGuide you have the following:
500 Cutting Edg… 102.0M Alliant/Herc Reloder-10x 2617 fps 7607 ftlb barrel 21.0"

That data is Out Dated. It was true, valid, however ONLY WITH THAT 1 KEG Of RL 10X. The second keg I had to drop down 3 grs to equal the 102. Now I am on the 4th Keg, and it's dangerous. I have removed all RL 10X data from the B&M site and the 500 MDM data. I need to remove it from Ammo Guide as well. It is NO LONGER VALID---

These 4 kegs of RL 10X have all been vastly different, less and less. I can no longer achieve that velocity with that powder.

I have been working on the data now for about 2 weeks +, using several different powders and about the best I can do is in or around 2400 fps with the 500 BBW#13 and stay at Safe Max pressures.

quote:

That's a lot of energy. What do you really think the cartridge is good for?

I don't pay much attention to energy figures. Well it was good enough to knock the shit out of elephant and buffalo last June?

500 MDM is a finicky thing, definitely for the professional hand loader. There are two now in the hands of Professional Hunters, but I am keeping a close eye on their loads and providing assistance. Still a big gun, compared to the B&Ms. I have one at SSK now having the barrel chopped down to 19 inches, that will help some. It will come in at an even 8 lbs with the english stock that it sports.

Last year I used loads running the 500 BBW#13 Solid at 2300 fps and the 460 NonCon at 2400 fps, and it knocked the holy crap out of everything, and was easy to handle, that was a 21 inch gun.

Still, I think I prefer the little 50 B&M, same 500 BBW#13 at 2150 fps, and the 460 NonCon at 2250 fps, and 450 North Forks at 2350 fps, all in 18 inches of 8 lbs and 38 inches overall length. More than enough, and it's proven on elephant, buffalo, hippo, and a bunch of other assorted critters. It's smaller! Easy to load, easy to shoot. Faster and handier too.

M

quote:

Dave Bush: I regard Jeff's cartridges as "short action" too since they will work through a 30-06 action. That being the case, I say the 500 AccRel is the best.

These are superb designs. Don't own any, but the 458AR seems like a winner.