The thought of using cheap once fired military brass makes me thinkig;

What are the performance pro/cons to put one of these together as an everyday throw around rifle.

Lately the cost of the .460"Wea brass is a joke. Just the $$$ saved on 100 cases would pay for all the dies/reamers etc.

Any input and experience is always welcome

Thanks
Pyzda

338 necked up would be similar to a 450 rigby, only it would have slightly less case capacity, I think. 416 Rigby brass is not that much more expensive and it is a whole lot easier to neck up. An added bonus is that dies and reamers already exist for the 450 and are about 150.00

I consider the earlier developed 450 Dakota a better cartridge than the late-to-the-dance 450 Rigby.
For show I have a fancy Magnum Mauser 450 Dakota of shiny blue and walnut, and faultless function.
But I do love the 45/.338 Lapua Magnum wildcat best:

Been there and done that.
It is a very good cartridge.
I have one cobbled together on the cheap with a CZ action, 1:12" twist McGowen stainless barrel,
and the factory CZ wood stock with extra cross bolts, pillars, and glass bedding.
The barrel is 23" long, and has some muzzle porting drilled right through the NECG Masterpiece barrel-band front sight base.
I blame misguided youthful ignorance for the muzzle porting.

That was my my first .338LM wildcat and it is a good one for 500-grainers at 2500 fps, or something else to your liking.

I made homemade reloading dies by using .338 Lapua Mag dies cut off and ground down at the top (shoulder angle preserved), for case body and shoulder sizing,
and 460 Wby dies cut off and ground short at the base to use for neck sizing, seating and crimping.

They don't call me a riflecrank for nuthin'.

The .458/.338 Lapua Magnum is an excellent cartridge.

Others did it before me. Mine is slightly shy of 2.7" long in the brass.
There was a South African fellow who did a 2.5"-in-the-brass wildcat based on .416 Rigby called the ".450 Majoor."
Rather short-necked too.

I called mine the 45/.338 Lapua Magnum, or the "457 Faultless Express."

From .338 Lapua max brass length of 2.724", necking up shortens the overall length of the brass,
but any length lost in distance from base to Neck-2 is more than made up
by greater decrease in distance from base to Neck-1,
as the overall effect with a 20-degree shoulder,
or any shoulder of less than 45 degrees,
is to lengthen neck with necking up the case to take a larger caliber bullet.
This makes for a nice DGR neck on the 45/.338LM, a straight-forward neck-up of the .338 Lapua Magnum.


Ream the chamber with properly piloted .338 Lapua Magnum reamer and a .458 Lott reamer for neck and throat of chamber.

Have you ever tried the search function?
I have some load data too.

In 2004 this rifle crank wrote:

"... have so far necked up 150 cases without a single problem. The neck thickness is the same as just about any factory cartridge. No splits, no runout, no mishaps at all.
The new .338 Lapua Magnum brass has the hues of annealing of the shoulder and neck area visible on the shiny new brass. Well executed.
As Ross Seyfried said, anneal after necking down and before necking up.
Lapua has annealed the stuff for me, apparently after they neck their basic down to .338.
I use two off-the-shelf RCBS neck expander dies for a two step neck-up. The first die is .30 to .375. The second step is .375 to ".45" and I am done.
The original 20 degree semi-angle Lapua shoulder is still there. No fire-forming is necessary, but the shoulder becomes sharper after firing. It is a very adequate shoulder.
The body taper is the same as the .338 Lapua, which is the same as the original .416 Rigby from which it was derived.
The neck does shorten as it necks up, but it does not thin much at all, and there have been no problems whatsoever. .338 Lapua Magnum brass is 2.724" max.
45 Lapua is 2.667" as necked up.
I can stamp or engrave a "45" in the blank spot on either side of the Lapua shield on the factory headstamp and I have brass that matches my barrel: 45/.338 Lapua.
That .338 Lapua Magnum brass is the best there is on the planet, and the 45 Lapua is one of the best wildcats possible. No problems.
Modifying a set of .338 Lapua dies, and a set of 460 Wby dies, I have made up my own 45 Lapua reloading dies:
A 460 Wby sizing die shortened just over a quarter inch provides the neck sizing. You basically cut off the belt area of the die. The Lapua base is bigger than the 460 Wby base (above the belt), but the Lapua body tapers a little quicker than the Weatherby.
Then cut off a .338 Lapua sizing die precisely in the shoulder area, just below the neck-shoulder juncture, so that the 45 Lapua neck sticks through the top, free and clear, but the remaining shoulder of the die sets the headspace.
Then cut off a 460 Wby seating die at the bottom, to shorten it and get rid of the belt area. Fortuitously, it allows even a crimp of the 45 Lapua case mouth without problem, since the 45 Lapua neck is long enough to be perfect for this.
An RCBS universal de-priming die or a cutoff 460 Weatherby de-capper/sizer is used.
It's perfect, and it has some advantages over the 450 Rigby and 450 Dakota, especially in the brass department."

RIP: Riflecrank Internationale Permanente

click on my signature on the 458 accurate reloading - no bad habits, NO FAT CART FEEDING ISSUES -save resolving that for real big bores, okay.. .500 or bigger - can get 500gr at 2400 if you MUST, and 2300 is easy ...

375 rum brass, common.. can fire form 300 rum, common, and can order headstamped brass from qual cart and/or midway...

dies from hornady

take a 7rem/300win/338win and rebarrel, reinforce stock, go hunting..

Picture from 2006,
here is a lineup left to right:
45/.338LM loaded long for 3.8" box
45/.338LM loaded intermediate length: 500-grainer at 2500 fps
45/.338LM with neck trimmed down to brass length of 2.5", this version is called the .458 Boom Stick.
45-70 Govt.

That where I left my framing square lol
The 458 BS would be sweet on a single stack M98

The .458 Boom Stick looks like a scaled-down 500 Jeffery with no rebate.

Anneal the milsurp .338 Lapua Magnum cases and go to town.
The 45/.338 Lapua Magnum is one of the best wildcats out there,
Certified by RIP.

`Rip and other gentleman


Thanks for the info

the whole rationale behind this, is to take the advantage of the cost of the once fired military brass.

All in all I'm not a wildcater, As I never could be bothered with preparing/annealing/fireforming/load developing/bullet testing/powder selecting etc.

In 31 years of hunting with only few exceptions all I ever used was .460Wea. and .375H&H.

Both loaded to approximately the same velocity of 2600 fps. So pretty boring.

The loads were developed once and they never changed since.

IMR 4350 powder, Fed 215 primers, 500gr. Hornady, .375" 300 Sierra GK BT bullets. That's it and I never missed/wished or needed more.

UNTIL NOW!

However this difference in the cost of the brass is something that starts to de-rail my World of simple things.

I can see it as it to replace the .460Wea with some loss in performance, but have stronger longer lasting brass.

Pyzda

Pyzda,
If you use the once-fired milsurp .338LM brass,
I think you better anneal one time before necking up, then you can forget about it.
Then it will be the best possible brass, will last a long time.

If your barrel is stamped or engraved "45/.338 Lapua Magnum" and your brass headstamp is ".338 lapua Magnum"

The 45/338LM is the best thing since sliced bread for you to build from off the shelf reamers and dies.
No custom parts needed.

If you want 500-grainers at 2600 fps, just use a CZ 550 Magnum with +3.8"-length box.
No problems.
I have one of those,
built by none other than Rusty McGee, Gunsmith.

Rip

For the brass to last IT IS AN ABSOLUTE MUST TO ANNEAL, if not the brass "work hardens".

Even if the brass doesn't show any splitting immediately, it will develop microscopic cracks much sooner than annealed brass will.

Once these cracks start to develop the proccess is unstopable.

2600fps. would be about the aim of the whole excersise, the only thing is; in what barrel length?.

Pyzda

quote:

Originally posted by Pyzda:
... I never could be bothered with preparing/annealing/fireforming/load developing/bullet testing/powder selecting etc. ...

Pyzda

I am glad you have seen the light and agree that annealing occasionally can be important.
Me too.

I had a 25"-barreled 45/.338 LM also, still have the take-off barrel that could be screwed back onto the CZ.
It was simply a rechambered .458WinMag CZ 550Mag with bolt face opened up.
It went on to rebarrel to another wildcat.
It got riflecranked.

I have both 22" McGowen and 25" CZ barrel load data to look for.
I kept the 22"-barreled rifle ...





I am afraid you might be stuck with something longer than 22" barrel if you want 2600 fps with 500-grainer ...
but with Lapua brass, pressures higher than I ever wanted might be used.

What is more dangerous on a DGR?
A barrel longer than 18" or pressures of 68,000 psi?

RIP

Just run the "data" on the Powley Computer and even it is not as good as the Quick Load is, the barrel still would have to be about 26"+ long.

I think the 22" barrel would be capable of 2400-2450fps. That would be about 100fps. slower than the same 22" in .460Wea.

I think, that the 100fps. loss in velocity in a brass that is about 6 X cheaper, would be a good trade off.

Pyzda

How about 2600 fps with 450-grainer in a 22" barrel?
I have done marginally better than that:

Correction on my barrel length, it is effectively only 21.5":
Above pictured rifle has 23" barrel from boltface/breech to muzzle crown.
It is back-bored at the muzzle for 1.5" and has porting to create an integral muzzle brake.
Thus the effective barrel length ballistically is only 21.5".



The load I favored for it was .458-cal/450-grain North Fork SP/FP/CP.

102 grains of RL-15 gave over 2600 fps at the muzzle with 450-grainer. Good accuracy.
98 grains of RL-15 gave over 2550 fps MV and 0.320" 3-shot group at 50 yards with Leupold 2.5X scope.

I have note cards and targets from 6/26/2004 to prove it.
I am a riflecrank.

RIP

I think with with little bit of pondering around, this .450/.338LAPUA can be made quiet "spectacular".

The .460Wea. performance IS NOT THAT SPECIAL until you use IMR 4350 powder.

The same could be also true with the .450/338Lap. Just to find the correct 500gr./powder combination.

Maybe someone has some usefull experience with it

Pyzda

Pyzda,
The magic is in realizing that a monometal copper or brass .458/450-grain premium soft or solid, will far outdo the antique stuff.
And the classic Nitro Express effectiveness was with .458/480-grain standard cup and core soft and RN solid.
So the "magic " is in the 450-grainer at 2600 fps, not 500-grains at 2600 fps.

The 45/.338 Lapua Magnum will do this in a 21.5" barrel.
RL-15 is the magic powder for this.
No further searching needed.
I am a rifle crank who has already played with two of these.
That is all the magic I needed.

I need to dust off the 25" CZ barrel and cut it down to 22" with no integral muzzle brake.
But a screw-on one for the benchrest work would be nice.
Put it in a CZ Kevlar stock, Ed LaPour safety and Timney trigger, and go bashing about in the bush with it.

Rip

It's bit hard for an old dog to learn and accept new way of thinking, however I'll take on your advice.

If you think that RL-15 is the powder of choice, I'll go with it. I have no reason to think otherwise.

I just will have to forget what components are loaded in the case and just concentrate on what it does in the field.

Pyzda

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
That where I left my framing square lol
The 458 BS would be sweet on a single stack M98

Boomie,

A pretty cheap way to have a 45/338 LM on a M98 is to purchase a new Zastava M85 in .375 H&H. Pull barrel, sell barrel, bottom-metal, and stock. Buy the .458 caliber barrel of choice, one of Duane Wiebe's 4MJ bottom-metals, and a B&C Medalist synthetic stock (full aluminum bedding block) - send all to Rusty since he has Ron's reamers and shortly thereafter you'll have a M98 that'll hold 3-down and feed very slickly. Also have Rusty smooth up the Zastava M85 action while he has it and Cerakote the metal.

As an FYI. My gunsmith had a commercial FN M98 Mauser full action with the 4MJ bottom-metal, and a stub-chambered barrel (barrel he uses for feeding work) that he'd just finished the metalwork on for a 404 Jeffery chambering in his vice while we were taking one day on the phone. This action was originally chambered in .375 H&H. Anyway he did not have to widen the ramp, only had to gently smooth it to assure zero burrs or sharpe surface to impede feeding and reworked raises to assure smooth unfettered feeding from both rails. Now I'll drop to a new paragraph to address what I perceived to be most important...
......
While on the phone (cordless) he walked over to my parts box, removed the dummy rounds that I'd sent him in .423/338 LM and .500/338 LM, and returned to the action in his vice. 1st pulled out the .423 caliber dummies, feed 3-down into the magazine, and the fourth which went down not fully but sufficiently deep to easily slip under the extractor when moving the bolt forward. Then proceeded to feed the entire magazine full of cartridges into the stubb-chambered barrel...reloaded multiple times and cycled the bolt slowly and as fast as he could. Zero feeding issues from the magazine. Then he repeated the entire process with the .500 caliber dummies. Again zero feeding issues with multiple reloadings while cycling the bolt slowly and as fast as he could cycle the bolt.
......
Understand, he did this while talking on the phone and I was unaware he was doing it until he'd finished with both sets of dummies and exclaimed, "they feed slickern the 404s." At that point - after my "huh?" He proceeded to tell me what he'd done. And at that point my two commercial FN M98 Maiser actions originally chambered in 30-06 that were originally only going to be opened up to a 3.5" internal magazine length are both now opened up to 3.6" internal length because the the front ramp (lower lug recess area) only has to be shortened and widened sufficiently to accomodate the 375 H&H which as been done for 100yrs with zero safety issues. Plus when the action work is done properly only a percentage of the extra length is taken from the front ramp, the balance is taken at the rear of the magazine box.
......
And to make things clear - my dummies in each caliber were loaded to two lengths for each - short length was 3.47" COAL and 3.57" COAL.... Both length in both calibers feed flawlessly from the M98 with ramp alteration for .375 H&H, rails altered for Norma mfg factory 404 Jeffery ammunition, and a Wiebe magazine box designed to hold 4-down in 404 Jeffery in a standard depth box.
......
So there you go - zero reason to use the short neck LM version just to fit in a M98 action... Just say'n...

Oops almost forgot. on the use of 338 LM once fired military brass - especially if it is Lapua manufacture...