.416 no2 for break action rifles.

https://www.johnrigbyandco.com...ibre-416-rigby-no-2/

Are they just adding a rim, and leaving everything the same??

“but this one goes to 11...”

More info here.
http://forums.accuratereloadin...0101804/m/6611021252

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
“but this one goes to 11...”

"and that's one more...innit?"

Mark

As I thought I posted on this subject, failure to lengthen and enlarge the case makes a joke of the 'No. 2' label and its usual connotation.

But I guess that's Rigby for you, a name that has itself been through the ringer this century.

I’m just going to give Rigby a mulligan and pretend this never happened.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I find it rather ironic if not outright hypocritical that people would slate Rigby in their decision when participants here regularly pontificate, propose and swoon over concoctions, renditions , duplications in the realm of wildcatting with absolutely no merit at all ! Not to speak of some of the names that have been attached to some of these creations !

I applaud Rigby for their courage and their audacity in the face of an overwhelming assault on the future of wild sports in the UK ! They deserve a medal and the support of each and every one who hold shooting dear !

HEAR HEAR

John Rigby has finally one-upped W. Jackman Jeffery.
Jeffery's .400 S. Jeffery (.450/400 NE 3-Inch) may have been shooting a few months before Rigby's .450 S. Rigby (.450 NE 3-1/4-Inch) circa 1897-1898.
How ironic that after over a century, the Rigby rimless cartridge becomes flanged,
and more directly and truly than the flanged .400 S. Jeffery became the .404 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express.

The ".416 Rigby Flanged" would indeed be a much better name for it.
I hope it is given a rim at least as thick as that of the .450/.400 NE 3-Inch,
and proportionally greater in diameter.
The .416 Rigby No. 2 will be about 10% bigger in case capacity and only about 3% bigger in bore area than the .450/.400 NE 3".
Nothing wrong with that!
All else is good for the benefit of using the same reloading dies as the .416 Rigby Rimless.
Any existing .416 Rigby Rimless single shots and double rifles could be rechambered with a rim reamer and a little extractor work.

Rip ...

I can see calling it a flanged and not No2.
If It is going to be identical to the 416 Rigby then why not just make a double rifle for 416 Rigby rimless? if Rigby wanted to have a cartridge that duplicates to 416 Rigby then why not a larger case at lower pressures with a 416 diameter bullet? Why would anyone chose a flanged 416 Rigby over a 450/400?

350 Rigby, rimless. 350 Rigby no. 2, flanged. The 416 is following Rigby tradition.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I can see calling it a flanged and not No2.
If It is going to be identical to the 416 Rigby then why not just make a double rifle for 416 Rigby rimless?

A flanged cartridge is better in doubles and single shots, according to the "Extraction Puritans."

if Rigby wanted to have a cartridge that duplicates to 416 Rigby then why not a larger case at lower pressures with a 416 diameter bullet? Why would anyone chose a flanged 416 Rigby over a 450/400?

It does beat the .450/.400 NE 3-Inch for same pressure. Bigger case, bigger bore, physics wins.
Assume same sort of throating for each.
Inconsequential sectional density difference when comparing a .410/400-grainer to a .416/400-410grainer.

There have been several other bigger-cased, flanged, .416-caliber cartridges.
This trick might take.
Like nopride2 says, a family tradition for Rigby on the nomenclature, the name might stick too, No. 2.

Rip ...

Is there a reason Righy can’t make a double with the rimless case? Are there not rimless doubles? Is Rigby going to put scopes on these? If Rigby wants to get me excited, make a 450 No2!

When we start caliber comparison, all thought and intelligence becomes void for the most part. This new cartridge is what it is, it will work, of that I have no doubt and some will like it and others will not, its a guess and by gosh game..It will not replace anything but it will add to choice, and that's always a good thing, will it sell? we will see.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

If It is going to be identical to the 416 Rigby then why not just make a double rifle for 416 Rigby rimless ?

HERESAY!!!

While we are at it, let’s have a 505 Gibbs flanged! Why not? 404 Jeffery flanged? where does the madness end? Next we will have people marrying their livestock and call it progress. one was designed for a bolt action and the other not so much. Just off putting for well bred Lord like myself. I’ll let the serfs and plebs play with their toys and pretend to have class.

Boom Stick-

The 450-400 is essentially the 404 rimmed

There are a number of makers that have built 416 Rigby DR's- I have fired a couple.

I have even fired a 378 Weatherby and 460 Weatherby doubles etcetc

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
While we are at it, let’s have a 505 Gibbs flanged! Why not? 404 Jeffery flanged? where does the madness end? Next we will have people marrying their livestock and call it progress. one was designed for a bolt action and the other not so much. Just off putting for well bred Lord like myself. I’ll let the serfs and plebs play with their toys and pretend to have class.

I got a .505 Gibbs Flanged case, so that is already done. Some say that .505 Gibbs started as a Flanged cartridge...

quote:

Originally posted by husky:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
While we are at it, let’s have a 505 Gibbs flanged! Why not? 404 Jeffery flanged? where does the madness end? Next we will have people marrying their livestock and call it progress. one was designed for a bolt action and the other not so much. Just off putting for well bred Lord like myself. I’ll let the serfs and plebs play with their toys and pretend to have class.

I got a .505 Gibbs Flanged case, so that is already done. Some say that .505 Gibbs started as a Flanged cartridge...

Th 505 Gibbs started out as a flanged case for double rifles and single shots. The historical rumor is Gibbs got wind of the 416 Rigby and flipped to a rimless case to out do the Rigby.

quote:

Originally posted by husky:

I got a .505 Gibbs Flanged case, so that is already done. Some say that .505 Gibbs started as a Flanged cartridge...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
While we are at it, let’s have a 505 Gibbs flanged!

one might take calipers to a 577/500 and begin to nod and wink about the 505 gibbs .... and, as case makers know, you can make both from the same starting point ....

quote:

I got a .505 Gibbs Flanged case, so that is already done. Some say that .505 Gibbs started as a Flanged cartridge...


Th 505 Gibbs started out as a flanged case for double rifles and single shots. The historical rumor is Gibbs got wind of the 416 Rigby and flipped to a rimless case to out do the Rigby.

I guess the 505 was similar to the 577/500 Magnum 3-1/8”

Gibbs couldn’t have tried to beat Rigby to the punch because at the time only Rigby had availability of magnum length Mauser actions.
They say the 505 was designed in 1911 and the contract between Rigby and Mauser expired in 1912 from what I understand.
I could see that if Gibbs knew of the contract ending and that Rigby was planning a medium bore rimless magnum, the 505 would be just the thing to take the bolt gun power crown.

The exclusive agreement was expiring. African Big Bore Cartridges by Van Der Walt the first rifles were completed in 1912. H is citing John Speed. So, to develop a cartridge right along side the Rigby in time. Gibbs Jr. had to have a hold of a magnum action, or knew the agreement was expiring. I cannot find my source for this thought, but it is not original. It is not inconceivable. Someone may have made it up but it was not I.

Van Der Walt cites secondary source material that Gibbs was contemplating a double 505 cartridge as early as 1894.

Finally, and I have asked this years ago on here. I do not think Rigby’s exclusive agreement was as exclusive as we think. All the magnum bolt action rifles were built at the same time. The first 416 Rgby confirmed by ledger left the shop on August 29, 1912, my birth day not year. The 505 Gibbs 1912. The 375 Holland and Holland first built on magnum actions is often cited as 1912 though I do not have a hard date.

They had to all be working with magnum actions.

Soooo what does quickload say the velocity of the 416 Rigby will be at 40,600 PSI like the 450/400????

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
Boom Stick-

The 450-400 is essentially the 404 rimmed

There are a number of makers that have built 416 Rigby DR's- I have fired a couple.

I have even fired a 378 Weatherby and 460 Weatherby doubles etcetc

IIRC the 404 was an effort to duplicate the ballistics of the .450/.400. Why they used a much fatter bullet (without the remotest connection with the calibre name) to do this beats me, though.

What kind of rifles did you use that were chambered in those Weatherby calibres? Would I be wrong in wondering if they may have been O/Us with substantial kerstens?

The magnum length action was surely well known to all of the British gunmakers having been utilized for the 400/350 and 350 Magnums long before 1912.
All they had to do was determine what OAL the action would take and what the rails could accommodate to develop a big rimless cartridge and then bide their time.
I suspect that Gibbs had the 505 in mind knowing that the contract between Rigby and Mauser would eventually end.

What pressure will the new case need to be loaded to to replicate the .416/.500NE ballistics

Link to article with pics and specs

https://www.thefirearmblog.com...igby-no-2-cartridge/

So the .416 Rigby No.2 has the same rim thickness as the .450/.400 NE 3-Inch.
That is nice.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Soooo what does quickload say the velocity of the 416 Rigby will be at 40,600 PSI like the 450/400????

Limiting the .416 Rigby No.2 to the same, lower pressure as the .450/400 NE 3" (40,611 piezo PSI PMax in QuickLOAD)
will limit it to about 2350 fps in a 24" barrel.
That is with either a 400-grain solid or 410-grain soft in the .416-caliber.
Many different powders will allow 2250 fps in the .416 Rigby No.2 at about 40K PSI.
That is undeniably better than can be done with the .450/.400 NE 3".
Physics wins again.
Now, if the .450/.400 NE 3" had a throat like the .458 Winchester Magnum ...
Then the .416 Rigby No.2 could be similarly throated and still win.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
So the .416 Rigby No.2 has the same rim thickness as the .450/.400 NE 3-Inch.
That is nice.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Soooo what does quickload say the velocity of the 416 Rigby will be at 40,600 PSI like the 450/400????

Limiting the .416 Rigby No.2 to the same, lower pressure as the .450/400 NE 3" (40,611 piezo PSI PMax in QuickLOAD)
will limit it to about 2350 fps in a 24" barrel.
That is with either a 400-grain solid or 410-grain soft in the .416-caliber.
Many different powders will allow 2250 fps in the .416 Rigby No.2 at about 40K PSI.
That is undeniably better than can be done with the .450/.400 NE 3".
Physics wins again.
Now, if the .450/.400 NE 3" had a throat like the .458 Winchester Magnum ...
Then the .416 Rigby No.2 could be similarly throated and still win.

Rip ...

Well, you've opened my eyes on something here, RIP. I had previously thought there was supposed to be some free bore in the .450/.400 but, checking it now, see there's not much in mine.

The problem with existing double rifles is of course that they are already regulated to the standard or tropical loads and would probably cross if longer-throated and stoked up.

Soooo you could neck the 416 #2 down to 410 in a single shot Just turn that 6 in 0 and you have the 410 Rigby!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
So the .416 Rigby No.2 has the same rim thickness as the .450/.400 NE 3-Inch.
That is nice.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Soooo what does quickload say the velocity of the 416 Rigby will be at 40,600 PSI like the 450/400????

Limiting the .416 Rigby No.2 to the same, lower pressure as the .450/400 NE 3" (40,611 piezo PSI PMax in QuickLOAD)
will limit it to about 2350 fps in a 24" barrel.
That is with either a 400-grain solid or 410-grain soft in the .416-caliber.
Many different powders will allow 2250 fps in the .416 Rigby No.2 at about 40K PSI.
That is undeniably better than can be done with the .450/.400 NE 3".
Physics wins again.
Now, if the .450/.400 NE 3" had a throat like the .458 Winchester Magnum ...
Then the .416 Rigby No.2 could be similarly throated and still win.

Rip ...

just take the throat out a bit in the Ruger No1 450/400 and upload the pressure to 65K would be a simpler approach to a "maximized" single shot

rather than a 416no2 new reamer

sambarman338,

Converting C.I.P. mm to inches:

450/400 N.E. 3" throat: Leade-only with beginning diameter of 0.4134" and semi-angle of 0*58'14"

.416 Rigby No.2 throat: Leade only with beginning diameter of 0.4169" and semi-angle of 0*54'36"

The .416 Rigby and .416 Rigby No.2 are even tighter-throated than the 450/400 N.E. 3",
if that little difference has any significance.

Rethroat your single-shot not your double rifle, unless you need to re-regulate the double rifle.

Circa 1903, H&H would "cone-up the breech" of their single shot 450/400 B.P.E. 3-1/4" rifles for those adventurous customers who wanted to see,
after signing on the dotted line of a waiver of liability for H&H,
if the rifle and their personal anatomy could survive the transition to Cordite loading.
I doubt they ever did it to their skinny-barreled B.P.E. double rifles.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by GBE:
What pressure will the new case need to be loaded to to replicate the .416/.500NE ballistics

About the same pressure, with the right powder, and less recoil than with the .500/.416 N.E. 3-1/4" (Krieghoff).

The longer cart was designed to beat 2150 fps with 400-gr to 410-gr bullets.
2350 fps gives it a reason to exist, all they wanted was to equal the .416 Rigby bolt-action ballistics in a double rifle.

Funny thing is that the C.I.P. MAP for the .500/.416 N.E. Krieghoff is 48,686 PSI,
and for the .416 Rigby it is 47,138 PSI,
according to Pierre van der Walt.
He also gives the H2O capacities, 135.0 grains and 127.5 grains respectively,
and base diameters, 0.5728" and 0.5890" respectively.

The .500/.416 N.E. 3-1/4" has a rim thickness of 40 thou.
The .416 Rigby No.2 rim thickness is 65 thou.
Great new cartridge.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
just take the throat out a bit in the Ruger No1 450/400 and upload the pressure to 65K would be a simpler approach to a "maximized" single shot

rather than a 416no2 new reamer

A new chamber reamer versus a new throat reamer.

But hey, all you need is a rim reamer to turn a .416 Rigby No.1 into a .416 Rigby No.2 in a Ruger No.1.
Yes, expensive new brass to acquire too, for a .416 Rigby No.2.

I was thinking of taking a .416 Ruger Ruger No.1 and turning it into a .416 Rigby No.2 Ruger No.1.
That way I get to say No.1 and No.2 in one breath.

A separate throat reamer could "cone-up the breech of the .416 Rigby too,
but might as well make a new chamber reamer all in one piece if you don't have the separate throat and rim reamers.

Rip ...

Or, if you are really feeling randy:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Soooo you could neck the 416 #2 down to 410 in a single shot Just turn that 6 in 0 and you have the 410 Rigby!

What we need is screw in chambers like you would chokes on a shotgun. I’ll file my patent papers tonight. I’d love to have a single shot in 45-70 and 450NE
I still would rather have a 450NE over this new come lately.

If it has the same rim thickness of the 450 NE then a single shot conversion to 450 Rigby#2 would be pretty easy. Maybe just rechamber a 458 Win Mag #1 into a 450 Rigby #2

quote:

I was thinking of taking a .416 Ruger Ruger No.1 and turning it into a .416 Rigby No.2 Ruger No.1.
That way I get to say No.1 and No.2 in one breath.

https://youtu.be/lB8-LXFaed4

boom stick,

I get it. Badmouthing the .416 Rigby No.2 is your new "schtick."
Like Ross Seyfried badmouthing the .458 WIN.
Good for laughs.

Rip

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
sambarman338,

Converting C.I.P. mm to inches:

450/400 N.E. 3" throat: Leade-only with beginning diameter of 0.4134" and semi-angle of 0*58'14"

.416 Rigby No.2 throat: Leade only with beginning diameter of 0.4169" and semi-angle of 0*54'36"

The .416 Rigby and .416 Rigby No.2 are even tighter-throated than the 450/400 N.E. 3",
if that little difference has any significance.

Rethroat your single-shot not your double rifle, unless you need to re-regulate the double rifle.

Circa 1903, H&H would "cone-up the breech" of their single shot 450/400 B.P.E. 3-1/4" rifles for those adventurous customers who wanted to see,
after signing on the dotted line of a waiver of liability for H&H,
if the rifle and their personal anatomy could survive the transition to Cordite loading.
I doubt they ever did it to their skinny-barreled B.P.E. double rifles.

Rip ...

I'd already had enough of that lead-only stuff with the .45-70. Anyway, my buddy made me some neck-sizing and bullet-seating dies and helped me load enough for my buffalo hunt next week. We stuffed the 400-grain Woodleighs in past the cannelure to keep them off the lands.