Sorry guys,
I spent a good deal of time forming some cases this weekend.. .I just don't think the 470 AR will work out... far too easy to "destroy" the shoulder, bump it back, etc... not to mention that if it's bumped back, it will not properly headspace.

Yes, I had to see for myself!!

so, let's start with the 458 AR and then the 416.. then the 375.

thoughts?
jeffe

My first thought is: BUMMER!

Too bad, but thanks for trying.
Your plan of action sounds good.

Are you still planning on using the RUM cases?

thanks.. my thoughts too... I really wanted a 470!!!

yep, still on with the rum...

as RIP measured, all belted mags, and even the 404 has some rebate!!

I did workout feeding the 500 jeffe.. shesh, what a hard thing to do.. but the 500 is VISIBLY rebated, something in the order of 5x the rebate of the rum cases...

jeffe

FWIW the larger shoulder of the .458 over the .475 will not likely be appreciable.

While only time will tell and it may be enough to be a "go" I'd personally start with the .423 diameter bullets.

If I can't have a .470 I'm thinking the next tribute to be paid is to the .404 (.423)

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
FWIW the larger shoulder of the .458 over the .475 will not likely be appreciable.

While only time will tell and it may be enough to be a "go" I'd personally start with the .423 diameter bullets.

If I can't have a .470 I'm thinking the next tribute to be paid is to the .404 (.423)

Well, to put a fine point on it.. the .470 would have a .040 shoulder to headspace on...

the 458 would have a .057 shoulder.. or ~150% more surface area to headspace from. if the 470 has just BARELY enough to work, but not viable, the 458 crosses that threshold

besides, the 458 WSM is already proven, and this will have MORE shoulder

The spirit of this is to make "cheap" available rounds.. and I don't think the .423 bullet makes that cross.. but I will be happy to do a cartridge drawing of the .424 bullets for you.

jeff

I got the feelin that the 416 version will be the best of the bunch. Good luck Jeffe - we're all eager to see how these pan out!

!@!#$!$$...&*%$%%$%....)(&^^%#%$&^....!$#$@$%^...@^%$%$^#...$%#$%#%$...*(%$@@**%$#!!!!!!!!!!!!!
o.k. thats out of my system...

thanks for trying...

have you tried cylindrical brass to start with?

@#%!#$%&!!!!!

o.k. the 416 and 375 will probably be the next important. the "NEW TAYLOR"

thanks again

Jeff,

Did you expand the body of the case out before forming the shoulder? I was going to turn down a rod to .515" to open up the body to .540", and then make up a die to form the shoulder, but I was short on free time this weekend. Anyhow, without opening up the body of the case, there is definately almost no shoulder.

If you want a shoulder that won't move once fireformed, go with a 40 deg. I've loaded a bunch of 35 whelen ackleys and the 350 Rigby (45 deg) and once a sharp shoulder is formed, there is no setting it back.

I still think the 470 AR is a worthwhile design, so long as the folks getting into it understand there will be a little bit of work and care involved in forming cases.

It is unique round in that it will provide the first practical jump in bore size over a 458 win mag, but without the jump in expensive actions and or brass.

Paul,
.506 got me to .540, on an internal rod... I then roll formed (lathe turning the brass, round tipped rod to push neck in).. which will eat a couple cases to get the feel...

i then decided to just anneal (soft) and try again.. but ran out of time between coats of oil on a 376 and didn't go back.

either 28.6 or 26.8 is the neck angle that lefts you keep the same headspace gages... a fine poster emailed me.. which is why the 308 family all works..


jeffe

can we just say the 470 needs more r+d to keep hopes alive and move to the other calibers...it may be able to do with virgin brass and the right machine.

I think the 458 is a better bore diameter than the 470 anyway.
There are many more 458 bullet choices some which are a lot cheaper than 470 bullets.
Sure the 470 is a little bigger around than a 458, but the 458 has better SD. I do not think there is any difference in "killing" power between the two.
Samw with the 416 vs the 423, 411, or 408 diameter bullets.

The problem with the 450 is, you can buy a chey zed 458 Lott for the same or less than you can build a 450 AR, and you get factory brass and dies.

The 470 AR makes sense as a cheap way to get someone into 470 NE performance, and the 416 AR makes some sense as well. Those are the only two chamberings that turn my crank.

The problem I see with the 458 version, especially with calling it the 458 AR, is that it already exists as the 450 Vincent (give or take, slightly longer or slightly shorter), which is Saeed's creation in honor of Roy Vincent.

I don't think the AR trbute cartridge should be a near copy of Saeed's 450 Vincent.

If you want a tribute to AR, build some rifles on the 450 Vincent and use Saeed's name for it.

Cheers,
Canuck

Which is merely a copy of the 450 G&A as designed by Jack Lott in the 70's.

True.

Much like the 416 AR is a near twin to the Howell.

Not much new under the sun, eh?

I only mention the 450 Vincent because I wouldn't want our well intentioned AR tribute to be an insult to its owner. Don't really know how Saeed would take it, though.

Cheers,
Canuck

Saeed's proven to have a very thick hide I haven't visited the cess pit er ah political forum in some time, but did visit it enough to know that his hide is thicker than an elephants.

The best way to see if he's flattered or offended by the proposed 45 is to pm or e-mail him. Somehow I'd think that a round or slew of rounds named after AR would tickle his fancy, even if copies or near copies of wildcats he was involved in, but I don't mean to speak for Saeed.

Brad,
RUM cases..

here ya go

AR rounds

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Brad,
RUM cases..

here ya go

AR rounds

Jeffe

Just a thought........

If a 470 is somethig you would really like to do, would another parent case not be an option - 500 Jeffery without rebated rim, 505 Gibbs etc.
As you know, I have a working relationship with Bruce Bertram, and would be happy to enquire on your behalf about any of the cases in his line-up, supplied to you in basic form.
For eg. I was able to get him to make my 585 African Express cases, 585 GMA cases without rebated rims, 458 Express - 3 inch, as well as 500 Jeffery in basic form without a rebated rim.

Please let me know if I could be of any help.

Best wishes.

Brad

Brad,
Thanks for the offer!! This project is aimed at the "Cheap" brass of the rums and that they will feed in "cheap" actions based off the 300 winmag length.

next project, however.....

jeffe

Jeffe

My offer stands, whatever you decide.

Let me know if I can be of any help.

Brad

I'm still thinking the 470 can be made to work. The 411 Hawk/Whelen goes from .473" at the casehead to ~440" at the neck .033" diff for body taper and shoulder, wheras the 470 AR goes from .550" at the head to .500" at the shoulder, .050" diff for the body taper and shoulder.

Get's one an honest Class II dgr with a std mag action and cheap brass. Anyone going to the trouble to handload for such a beast should have no probem making it work. Cheap cast bullets jammed into the lands to fire-form and you're good to go!

alright paul!...lets keep the 470ar hopes alive

Gents,
especially Paul... I am in the game for the 470, if you think it'll work!! I still have a barrel on order from pacnor!!

jeffe

should we post on the gunsmith and wildcat boards...more noggens, more ideas and more fiddlers can be helpful...this is what this forum is for...CALLING ALL SMITHS...CALLING ALL WILDCATTERS...CODE RED...

i believe it just needs the right process, come on guys, keep hope alive

Hi guys,
Here is my 2 cents worth. From the original drawing

The case head is .550 and keeping to .005 taper per lineal inch the maximum shoulder diameter would be .538 once the case has been shortened by .250. Without neck turning it was mentioned the brass measured .016. So a .475 bullet with .032 neck thickness would give you .507 diameter. So the .538 shoulder less the .507 diameter for bullet and case thickness leaves you.031 divided by two for each side of the case leaves .0155 to heaspace on. Now put an angle of your choice on that and it's not a lot. So if you turn case necks down to .010 you would gain .006 per side giving you .0215 to headspace on. Your choice if you think it's enough. I think if you run a 45 degree angle you would half the amount of difference to get the center of your headspace datum line.

You would need an expander to make the brass cylindrical so you could run it through a full length sizer die to put the shoulder in the correct place. You would have to fire form the case again after this in order to form the shoulder as much as possible.The problems I can see are the full length sizer will make the brass undersized as it usually does and there is a good possibility when you fill it with bullseye pistol powder, cereal etc and fire it that the firing pin might push the case forward and miss shape the shoulder leaving you with a little excessive head space problem or poorly formed brass. Just some thoughts for you to ponder.
Take good care,
Dave

QUOTE-"You would need an expander to make the brass cylindrical so you could run it through a full length sizer die to put the shoulder in the correct place. You would have to fire form the case again after this in order to form the shoulder as much as possible.""UNQUOTE--

On this step if you size it so the bolt closes on a crush fit(you will have to experiment a little at a time with a case) you can fireform it with no head space.I think your 470 is doable,with little extra work,and for
reliability, use 45 degree shoulder. Make all the rest of the calibers in the line with same shallower shoulder to use one headspace gauge.And one gauge for 470AR.Two gauges in
a whole line of cases isn't bad.

Once the cartridge is operational we could use
it as extra barrel on gun,to be a spotter for my 900..Having fun..Ed.

The 585 NYATI has a .035 shoulder (at least the version I have) and headspaces reliably. I think. The .400 brown whelen is in the same ballpark and also works just fine. I have actually played with shoulders less than .017 and could not move them by closing the bolt. period. You might be able to get away with much less than you think.-Rob

Rob,
you thinking it'll work??

sent you a PM

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Rob,
you thinking it'll work??

sent you a PM

jeffe

jeffe, remember Ross Seyfried's words in the process of making the .585 Nyati.... " I rebelled at "can't"..." when people said his shoulder was to weak... could not be done...

I think it can be done, but as stated above, necks will have to be carefully made, people need to know what they are doing.

jeff, see if you can pull up the old article by Z-hat on the 400 he did up on the 95 winchester, he talked about the shoulder problem, maybe that could help

Jeff,

If we were to start from scratch for the ideal 470 rimless magazine rifle round, without regard to the price of brass and the size of the magazine, then no doubt we'd look at the 470 M-Bogo and say, yep, that is the best design.

Since the over-riding criteria for this design is cheap easy to come by std length mag actions, and cheap brass, aka ultramag, then the 470 AR can be made to work.

Yes, the design is a compromise, and takes some care in the forming of brass. I would spec that the dies come with two tapered expanders, one from .375"-.425", and one from .425" to .475". I would also spec an optional .510" body expander die, in fact, one could simply use a Lyman M-die in 50 cal to open up the body before running the case through the fl sizer.

I would give some consideration to the shoulder angle and not make it too steep. On my 350 Rigby, the best brass is formed from 375 H&H, the problem is setting back the 45 degree shoulder when fl sizing before the first firing. If I don't get the shoulder set back sufficiently on the first pass through the die, then I can never get it back further on subsequent passes through the die. I know the AR shoulder will be smaller so perhaps this isn't as big of an issue. I will say once you form a 40-45 deg shoulder, it's not going anywhere on subsequent firings or trips through the sizer. We could even go with a 47 deg shoulder, just because.

I'm a big proponet of the 470 AR, as you can tell. It finally answers the question as to what good is a 7 mm rem mag. The answer is, it's a perfect platform for a 470 AR

Thanks for the support...

Paul, I shot you a pm...

yeah.. on ross.. but he did it wrong, and rob had to fix it!!!

jeffe

47-degrees is an 'interesting angle'...

Jeff and I are finalizing design specs, I think it'll be a 40 deg shoulder, er ah semi-angle. It's the balance of having an angle that isn't to dificult to set back when forming the cases, yet isn't too shallow to worry about moving during firing. Once fireformed, there should be no problem with the shoulder.

Me thinks many of the problems with the rounds that have smaller shoulders is sloppy gunsmithing and reloading die maker, ie the chambering reamers are sunk too deep, and/or the fl dies push the shoulder back too much.

With a proper chamber and fl die, the initially formed shoulder will be at the correct spot, a long loaded cast bullet will keep the case from going anywhere, and once you blow out that shoulder, it's there to stay.

Hi Jeff and Paul,
It's good to see that the project is going to remain under way. Ed's suggestion of setting the shoulder in a FL sizer die until the bolt just closes make a lot of sense and may make the difference. I've never had to form anything in that manner but will keep it in mind for sure. Well the ideas are moving along quite nicely. Jeff will yoou be introducing this round to the Hogs.
Take good care,
Dave

Thanks for all the support

case will be 2.65" long
oal will be 3.35 (but throated for longer)
throat/freebore will be .75 (yeah- it's long)

if you have a straight case, trim to ~2.7
form
fireform
go to town.

Neck is .502, shoulder is .540

angle is 40d

Dave,
it will certainly be a pig buster!!

here's some drawings i did.. well, solids I modled.. yes, I didn't draw the base right, but the reamer doesn't need it.

kaboom!

looks good, keeping hope alive

what is the next step?



will you get someone to produce the fully formed cases for us not so smithie guys?

which cal will be the first in testing?

will you give all a.r. carts the 40degree shoulder?

Boomstick
I'll print my drawing, then call dave manson about the reamer and headspace gages ($225)

then dave davidson on dies...(~$200)


I've already got a pacnor #6 475 barrel ordered, and I am getting a ruger mkI 7mag...

"where will the donations go?"

The reamer and headspace gages will go to pacnor for the rest of us to have access to, and not have to spend $200 bucks for access!!! Pacnor can mount your barrel or deep chamber it.



If ya'll want, they will do a discount for an order of 5 or more of the same barrel.

A guy could then get a $400 action (high, but let's talk). order a necg front sight, a barrel band, and a williams peep sight ($150) send to pacnor for gunsmithing, $600.. and a set of dies $200

$1350, assuming the stock will work...



jeffe