So here is the "norm"

.375" 300@ 2500 (H+H)
.416" 400@ 2400 (RIGBY)
.458" 500@ 2300 (LOTT)
.510" 600@ 2150 (500 Nitro)
.585" 750@ 2050 (577 nirto)

Question is if the SD is the same why not use the same velocity in a non deforming solid?

will a similar SD and construction solid 375 @ 2050 penetrate the same as 585 solid and vise versa?

we have all heard "Energy does not kill" so why the increased velocity?

Hydrostatic shock does not "stun" a buff.

Why wouldnt a 375 solid @ 2050 be just as good?

The conventional wisdom is the bigger hammer wins due to more damage done but in that case if a 375 expands to 585 why dont we have heavier softs???

Annnnnnnnd go!

...

You forgot the 850 grain arrow (about 40 cal) with a velicity of around 250 fps....

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
You forgot the 850 grain arrow (about 40 cal) with a velicity of around 250 fps....

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
So here is the "norm"

.375" 300@ 2500 (H+H)
.416" 400@ 2400 (RIGBY)
.458" 500@ 2300 (LOTT)
.510" 600@ 2150 (500 Nitro)
.585" 750@ 2050 (577 nirto)

Question is if the SD is the same why not use the same velocity in a non deforming solid?

will a similar SD and construction solid 375 @ 2050 penetrate the same as 585 solid and vise versa?

we have all heard "Energy does not kill" so why the increased velocity?

Hydrostatic shock does not "stun" a buff.

Why wouldnt a 375 solid @ 2050 be just as good?

The conventional wisdom is the bigger hammer wins due to more damage done but in that case if a 375 expands to 585 why dont we have heavier softs???

Annnnnnnnd go!

Boomie,
Just when I was beginning to think you weren't a nut , you go and prove me wrong

Let's see ... hmmm ... those forest fires are almost out, now where did I put that gasoline ...

Nevertheless, I did enjoy Frasier vs. Ali and Ali vs. Foreman so bring it on ...

Awe come on it was getting a little boring around here

I am a nut but a good one

I am a bigger is better guy but there is some serious questions here...

will a similar sd 375 penetrate the same as a 585 @ the same velocity and if so why the huge diff. in velocity.

The increased velocity of smaller projectiles compensates for decreased momentum when compared to the larger projectiles.

That's my off the cuff guess.


Now for the arrow thing, that is a separate discussion. Being a died in the wool traditional archer, I feel hunting dangerous game is somewhat of a stunt.

I thoroughly enjoyed watching the PSE guy shoot an elephant and watch it run off into some park. (extreme sarcasm)

Where they had to wait a couple a days to get permission to go retrieve it and thereby waste the animal. But then all he cared about was the ivory & ego anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Awe come on it was getting a little boring around here

I am a nut but a good one

I am a bigger is better guy but there is some serious questions here...

will a similar sd 375 penetrate the same as a 585 @ the same velocity and if so why the huge diff. in velocity.

It all depends on the twist, doncha know....

sd of at least .300 for conventional bullets, .280 for coppor or brass monos

bore diameter of at elast .375, but .416 is better

IMPACT vel of at elast 1900, but under 2500 is better.

Softs don't always go where you want them to. And a smaller solid (same SD, same speed) will have less momentum than a larger one, regardless of SD.
I was thinking about this question in reverse, actually, the other night. I'm a fan of the 165g .308 and 150g 7mm at about 2800 fps for GP medium-game hunting.
Why don't we see more 300g .416's, 375g .458's, 400g .475, etc. at similar speeds? The answer of course, is that it's overkill for most of what you'd shoot with a 165g .308, and underkill for what you'd shoot with a .475 Mbogo or 416 Remington. But what if you wanted to take your Rigby or Capstick on a one-gun hunt? Seems a 400g A-Frame in the Mbogo at about 2600 fps would be a no-brainer for zebra and the like.

quote:

will a similar SD and construction solid 375 @ 2050 penetrate the same as 585 solid and vise versa?

Provided they are adequately stabilized, the heavier bullet will always penetrate more.

It has more energy and momentum. Lots of emperical data on this. From my own tests last few years.


# Of Boards Caliber Bullet Velocity Twist Comment

450 Dakota

70 450 Dakota 500 Hornady FMJRN 2,397 fps 1-12 Angled downward last 10 boards.

68 450 Dakota 465 A-Square RN 2,538 fps 1-12 Tracked straight. No tipping or bending.

67 450 Dakota 465 A-Square RN 2,563 fps 1-12 Tracked straight despite hit near L edge.

62 ½ 450 Dakota 450 Barnes RN 2,555 fps 1-12 Tracked straight.

54 450 Dakota 465 A-Square RN 2,467 fps 1-12 Tracked straight. Velocity matters! Perforated 13 less boards than 200 fps faster test shot.

54 450 Dakota 400 Barnes RN 2,676 fps 1-12 Tracked straight. SD matters! Same penetration as 465 grain A-Square @ 2,467 fps.

52 ½ 450 Dakota 450 NorthForkRN-FN 2,527 fps 1-12 Sharp edge to meplat. 367 diameter. Slightly concave. Just barley tipped.

52 ½ 450 Dakota 450 NF TC-FN 2,612 fps 1-12 Telescoped less than 0.005 inch. Less than 0.008 expansion. Modest tipping.

47 450 Dakota 450 GS FN 2,524 fps 1-12 Expanded to .431 meplat. Tipped for pitch and yaw about 45 degrees. Damage to wood from 33 boards onward.

39 450 Dakota 450 NF-CP 2,617 fps 1-12 Expanded to .465 x .470 caliber (much less than in water). 75% of penetration of NF-FN.

33 – 43 450 Dakota 500 Kodiak FMJFN 2,407 fps 1-12 Expanded to .65 caliber. A lot of damage to wood like a soft point from 12-14 boards onward.

458 x 404 (Similar to 460 GA).

71 1/2 458 x 404 500 Hornady FMJ 2,367 fps 1-10 One to two more boards than 1-14 twist which had slightly higher velocity.

71 1/2 458 x 404 500 Hornady FMJ 2,367 fps 1-10

48 458 x 404 450 GSFN 2,450 fps 1-10 Perfectly straight bullet path.

46 458 x 404 500 Hornady FMJ 2,334 1-10 Hit left edge. Exited side of stop-box. Tipped at 40 boards (13 more than 1-14 twist). Penetrated 10 boards more than 1-14 twist. Threw wood 30 feet!

28 458 x 404 500 Barnes X 2,334 1-10 Very unstable. Expanded and turned 180 degrees. Fully sideways at 23 boards, traveled base forward until the 28th. An upward climbing wound profile like 5.45 x 39mm.

450 Ackley

70 1/2 450 Ackley 500 Hornady FMJ 2,400 1-14 One to two boards less penetration than 1-10 twist.

69 1/2 450 Ackley 500 FMJ 2,400 1-14

36 450 Ackley 500 FMJ 2,400 1-14 Exited side of stop-box. Tipped at 27th, and fully sideways @ 31 boards. Ten boards less penetration than 1-10 twist.

458 Winchester (BRNO 602 with 25 inch barrel).

62 458 Winchester 500 FMJ 2,030 1-10 (Down-loaded 458 x 404). Penetrated 3-4 more boards than standard twist.

59 458 Winchester 500 FMJ 2,021 1-14 Circa 1980 Remington/FMJ

58 458 Winchester 500 FMJ 2,105 1-14 Federal Premium/FMJ

39 ½ 458 Winchester 450 GSFN 2,050 1-12 200 fps less velocity than possible in a full power .458 WM.

23 458 Winchester 510 RNSP 2,105 1-14 Expanded. Federal Premium.

21 458 Winchester 510 RNSP 2,021 1-14 Expanded. Circa 1980 Remington.

416 x 375 Improved (Similar to 416 Remington or Hoffman but with 1-10 twist).

71 416 x 375 Imp 410gr Kynoch FMJ 2,400 1-10 Three shots. Very consistent performer.

375 Improved (Similar to 375 Weatherby or 375 JRS), 22 ½ inch barrel.

71 375 IMP 300 FMJ 2,791 1-8

70 375 IMP 300 FMJ 2,791 1-8

50 375 Improved 300 FMJ 2,791 1-8 Exited side of stop-box. 13 more boards than standard twist that exited.

375 H & H (22 ½ inch barrel)

65 375 H & H 300 FMJ 2,570 1-8 Penetrated 4 more boards than standard twist.

61 375 H & H 300 FMJ 2,570 1-12 Same results twice.

37 375 H & H 300 FMJ 2,570 1-12 Exited side of stop-box.

7.62 mm NATO

22 FN FAL 147 gr FMJBT 2,800 fps 1-12 Recovered base forward. Began pitching at 14 boards, and completely side ways at 18 boards.

7.62 x 39mm

17 AKM 123 gr FMJFB (lead core) 2,340 fps 1-7 1/2 Yawed after 5 boards.

5.56 x 45mm

11 M16 A1 55 gr FMJBT M193 3,250 fps 1-12 Turned over and broke in two at canelure on 8th board.

13 M16A2 61 gr FMJBT SS109 3,050 fps 1-7 Turned over and broke on 11th board.

5.45 x 39mm

10+dent 11th AK-74 52 gr FMJ w steel core. 2,950 fps 1-7 1/2 Turned over on 2nd board.

ROTATIONAL VELOCITIES.

Rotational Velocity (revolutions per second)
Velocity 1-7 1-8 1-10 1-12 1-14 1-16
(ft/sec)

2,000 3420 3000 3000 2000 1700 1500
2,100 3591 3150 2520 2100 1785 1575
2,200 3762 3300 2640 2200 1870 1650
2,300 3933 3450 2760 2300 1955 1725
2,400 4104 3600 2880 2400 2040 1800
2,500 4275 3750 3000 2500 2125 1875
2,600 4446 3900 3120 2600 2210 1950
2,700 4617 4050 3240 2700 2295 2025
2,800 4760 4200 3360 2800 2380 2100
2,900 4959 4350 3480 2900 2465 2175
3,000 5130 4500 3600 3000 2550 2250
3,200 5472 4800 3840 3200 2720 2400

quote:

Originally posted by SDhunter:
The increased velocity of smaller projectiles compensates for decreased momentum when compared to the larger projectiles.

That's my off the cuff guess.

Ding, Ding, Ding! We have a winner!

Andy,
if you preface with "in the same or close caliber" then you are correct.

However, a .458 500gr solid WAY out penetrates a 535gr .510 bullet, at the same speed...

every time.
jeffe

quote:

a .458 500gr solid WAY out penetrates a 535gr .510 bullet, at the same speed...

Sorry, I meant a heavier bullet with the same SD.



Pictured, similar SD North Fork FN solids; 9.3, 375, 416, .423, .458 and .474.

Andy

Yep.. that I agree with fully..

In the bigger bores, shooting a bullet of similar sectional density as a 300 gr .375 at 2500 fps is a painful endeavor for most! These ballistics are representative of calibers like the .577 T-Rex with 750 to 800 gr bulletsand .600 OK with 850 to 900 gr bullets in full power loads. It takes a special kind of dude to accurately shoot loads in this power range.

I think another reason is people found out long ago that true big bores don't need high velocity to kill and they penetrate well enough at their traditional velocities. The ones who wanted more created rounds like the .577 T-Rex and .600 Overkill(RobGunbuilder - ) but even they would probably agree that the .577 and .600 Nitro kill game just as dead.

Once a bullet penetrates lengthwise through a buffalo, how will any additional penetration help kill it? The smaller calibers need the additional velocity to make up for their lack of bullet width and bullet weight.

This is my understanding of how it works, for whatever it's worth.