Why not a 470 Capstick? 470

If a 475 bullet hits better, it makes sense to me.

Cheaper to keep fed than a 470C. Greater selection of bullets. Cheap headstamped brass and dies. Can get one off of a rack at the gunshop if you want it in a hurry, so no waiting.

That said, if a 470 Capstick turns your crank, then get it. Reason enough.

If, I was to go to a .470 bolt rifle, I would step up to the Mbogo. No real point in a "small step", might as well take a real step.

Hog Killer

I have found the Capstick to be a far more accurate round than the Lott, perhaps due to the ghost shoulder on the Capstick.

Exactly the question I asked myself in 1999 when I had my winchester 70 made in the custom shop. As I handload my ammo and already had a 458 win mag, I choose the Capstick. I still have a good supply of the Barnes 600 grainers on hand and I think they make it a much more effective round than the lott.

the capstick is a great round.

the AR "solves" the same problem.. but fits in a normal anction.

.475 bullets are generally 2x 458 bullets, for non-superpremium bulllets

that's where I am headed the next ninety days. A 458-475-510-550 on the Gibbs case. Probably overlap a bit, but HEY!! that's the fun part, right.

Rich

Try a .475/600 Ok- that thing will smoke all other .475's. No one has done one yet to my knowledge. Probably be able to get 3000fps with a 500 gr solid if you want to.-Rob

When your rifle makes it to Africa but your ammo does not (happens more than you might think), chances are your PH has .458 Lott ammo onhand. At least, he should have .458 Winchester rounds available, which can be used in the Lott.

What are the odds of finding Capstick ammo in Africa?

I'm just saying the Lott is a lot more versitile.

Excellent question. I would definitely opt for the 470 Capstick. Cheap 400gr pistol bullets (cast or jacketed) for plinking equalizes the ammo cost differential considerably.

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
Excellent question. I would definitely opt for the 470 Capstick. Cheap 400gr pistol bullets (cast or jacketed) for plinking equalizes the ammo cost differential considerably.

No, it doesn't. You don't own a .475, do you?
"cheap" 400 gr pistol bullets are 2x the cost of remmie 405 .458 .. cast .475 bullets, with jackets, are MORE expensive than remmie 405s.

in short, no, it's not anywhere near as cheape to shoot normal bullets in a .475....

but I shoot the heck out of mine

S

The 458 lott is the cheapest way to make serious power, factory rifles, brass, ammo and dies, and cheap component bullets.

If you want more power, I'd go straight to the 500 A-sq. I mean, if your going to fork out for a custom rifle and dies, why not choose one that will launch 600 gr bullets as fast as the Lott launches 500's?

quote:

The 458 lott is the cheapest way to make serious power, factory rifles, brass, ammo and dies, and cheap component bullets.

I disagree - The standard 458 Win is the cheapest and easiest way to serious power. I know it's faddish to jump on the anti-458 bandwagon but at last year's SCI show I found a lot more working African PH's who still loved their 458 Win than there were those who had anything seriously bad to say about them.
Still, if you want more power and can honestly handle it get the Lott or Wby or Capstick or Jeffery or Gibbs or whatever you think you need. They are all fun to play with and no doubt kill like the hammer of Thor when pointed right. Just don't expect to find any ammo in some remote corner of the globe when you eventually do get seperated from it.

Phil,
i disagree. I believe teh 458 win is a threshold, but not the serious power the lott is, and you CAN load a lott down.

jeffe

quote:

i disagree. I believe teh 458 win is a threshold, but not the serious power the lott is, and you CAN load a lott down.
jeffe

Jeffe I wish you would explain this statement. Did you read the article buy 458 win last year comparing the Lott to the Win mag. I just checked the Hornady Balistic tables. They list the Muzzel velocities as
458 Lott with 500gr FMJ at 2300fps
458 win mag 500gr FMJ at 2260fps

With a 40 fps advantage how is the lott a powerhouse and the win mag a threshhold.

I think we shold base our opinions on facts not emotion.

Dr B

"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices"

Dr. B, are you talking about Hornady's factory loads? If so, their Heavy Magnum .458 win mag loads are certailnly advertised at 2260 fps. In my CZ .458 Lott, the fastest one went 2150 over my chronograph whereas the Hornady .458 Lott ammo did 2300 fps. I think their figures for the win mag loads are optimistic.

quote:

With a 40 fps advantage how is the lott a powerhouse and the win mag a threshhold.

I think we shold base our opinions on facts not emotion.

Dr B

Whitworth
then change the 40 fps I quoted to 150fps and I will still ask the same question How can 150fps make a lott a powerhose and win mag a threshold round????

The same people that rail agenst the win mag will say that the 460 wby at 300fps greater than the lott, hase no advantage over the lott.

I still belive "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices"

Dr B

Dr B,
I agree wholeheartedly, that we should base our decisions on facts, not emotions...

I would also add that a single instance does nto the standard make.

For example"published" load for the 458 winmag is 500gr at 2150. Some laods are faster, some are slower

"published" for a 458 lott is 500 at 2300.

So, if you walk into the african equilivant of wallyworld, and buy a box of 458 winmag, you expect published of 2150 or LESS, as those are the facts of the matter.

If you buy the lott, you expect 2300 OR LESS,

in either event, it is safe to assume a 150fps difference, on any random set of boxes for each.


Why do I say 2150 vs 2300 is a threshold? It is a SIGNIFCANT difference in recoil.

there's a reason hornady calls them HEAVY magnums... and that's the only fatory load for 458 that is advertised at anything faster than 500/2150.

So, in conclusion, theres a world of difference between the published loads of each. My should certainly knows 150fps difference with a 500gr bullet.

Further, there's "only" 150fps difference from the 300 savage and the 30-06, and then 30-06 and 300 win...

heck, if we use the "what's 150fps" and comare down, pretty soon, a 500 at 1650fps looks good, after all, that only 400fps slower than the winmag

jeffe

jeffe
Well using your reasoning we should all be using 460wby built on a mauser action pf course. Lets trash all the 500 NE and build 510 wells.
If you read about connie brooks african hunts you will see that her 500 NE loaded down to 1900 fps with 570 gr bullets did just fine of Buffalo and elephants.
We all get caught up in new rounds and new powder that gives highter velocites and more FPE. We should remeber that most DG if africa were killed long before these new rifles were avaible. Also remeber that the 100 yr old 30-06 will cleanly kill any animal on the planet.
Dr B

Dr B,
i'll agree, and go one better.. there's nothing the oringal 8mmx57 .318 bore couldn't take cleanly.

But the question was why do I think of the 458 winmag as a threshold and the lott as a powerhouse... 2150 vs 2300. The 460 weatherby, unless loaded with monometals, destroys bullets on impact, and is too fast.. load it to 2400 and it's nearly perfect.

Or, we can look at it anotherway, if the 2150 is enough, then all 458s whould be lotts, and loaded down for pressure.

That Connie loaded he 500NE down actually proves my point, that the lott can be loaded down.

The lott isn't "new", though.. and the winmag was new one day, as well, right?

Just from y shooting of big bores, there's a WORLD of difference, in the same size/weight gun, between a lott and a 458 win.

Heh, I used to tease ray about "new fangled stuff... like brass cases"...

jeffe

The best big bore if the one you have the most confidence in

every week I hear guys wanting to rechamber the 458WM to 458Lott...to get more power. I have not heard of anybody wanting to cut the barrel on a Lott and rechamber to 458WM. I can always download to 458WM power levels.

Rich

I have loaded an awfully lot of 458 bullets ove the past twenty years, both in the standard Win and the Lott, and with equal barrel lengths there is normally less than 100fps between them. A little league pitcher can throw a 500 grain bullet faster than that! If anyone honestly thinks that is going to make any difference to the type of animals a 458 is used on then they should just get a 460 Wby and be done with it.

I just don't see why the people with Winnies don't use 480 grs bullets as the original .450 NE cartridges. 2150 would be reached at lower preassures and give more volume.
I'd much rater have 480 at 2150, than 510 at 2000.

That said, I really like the Capstic with its parallell neck and ghost shoulder. Then again, even better, the .470 AR.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I have loaded an awfully lot of 458 bullets ove the past twenty years, both in the standard Win and the Lott, and with equal barrel lengths there is normally less than 100fps between them. A little league pitcher can throw a 500 grain bullet faster than that! If anyone honestly thinks that is going to make any difference to the type of animals a 458 is used on then they should just get a 460 Wby and be done with it.

Hey Phil been a while! How was your bear/hunting/guiding season?

el jeffe, Phil, Bent et al, I started this thread because of the popularity of the Lott. If the firearms industry had opted for or added the Capstick as a choice, I feel the .475 caliber bullet would enjoy greater popularity. Stronger sales of bullets would cause a subsequent lower cost to the buyer.

This would have built a better platform for the 470 Mbogo & 470 AR.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:

If you read about connie brooks african hunts you will see that her 500 NE loaded down to 1900 fps with 570 gr bullets did just fine of Buffalo and elephants.

Apparently that hunt was not truthfully reported, as the word on the ground is that it took her 19 shots to kill an elephant with that downloaded .500 NE. It appears to have been downloaded well below the 1900 fps stated and the brain could not be reached with frontal brain shots.

I've been doing a lot of reading & research on the 45s and spoken with a few people with some field experience with all these calibers. From what I gather, the 458 Lott's what the WM should have been in the first place, that is, a reliable 2150-2200 fps shooter at moderate pressures.

Pump the Lott up to 2300 and you run into the same problem as the 458 Win Mag has to achieve 2150, even with the new powders. So, if you stick with no more than 2200ish with the Lott, or maybe 2100 with the 458 Winnie, you're in good shape.

If you want 2300 plus, then get a 450 Dakota, Rigby or the undisputed #1, the 460 Weatherby. Just be sure you can handle the recoil AND use a premium bullet. jorge

there seems to be quite a bit of controversy (again) surrounding the 458wm VS Lott. Half of the posters have Lotts and get a couple hundred fps advantage over a 458wm. The other half do not, and get the same MV out of the 458wm they own as the Lott (that they do not own). From the data (not supposition) 458wm's in Africa struggle to pass 1950fps very much. Lott's in Africa struggle to pass 2200fps very much. Hornady tells me they load Lott 200fps higher than the 458wm.

THE QUESTION: has anybody here actually chronographed 458wm, then rechambered to 458Lott and chrono'ed the 458wm and Lott to see?

Rich

I have never owned a 458 win mag, but I have had two 458 Lotts. I haven't tried every powder or every bullet made. What I have found is that the even the Lott case isn't that large when it comes to fitting powder and a 500 gr bullet. Making the case smaller doesn't help any in that manner.

The real question should be, which case can most easily and reliably hold many combinations of 500 gr bullets and powder to achieve 2150 fps and reasonable pressure in rifles with say a 22" barrel.

I'm partial to making things as easy and reliable as possible, and in that context, the Lott is the easy choice. It is not the best choice for every possible use of a 45 though.

I guess the question comes down to, if you walk into a gunshop and you can get a bolt action in either the 458 win mag or Lott for the same price, which one would you choose? In that case, I can't think of a single good reason for choosing the win mag. I'm all ears for whatever I'm missing.

the lott improved on the win mag which was another reason never to own anything made by winchester ! why this "renowned" firearm maker was too cheap to build on a real magnum action escapes reason.

seems bolt guys always want to see how fast they can make things go - so why not fill the lott case to the top with the powder they use in the wssm , maybe even compress it a bit like winchester does. . then get a big bang !

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I have loaded an awfully lot of 458 bullets ove the past twenty years, both in the standard Win and the Lott, and with equal barrel lengths there is normally less than 100fps between them. A little league pitcher can throw a 500 grain bullet faster than that! If anyone honestly thinks that is going to make any difference to the type of animals a 458 is used on then they should just get a 460 Wby and be done with it.

I thought the point of Mr. Shoemaker's article was that if you needed the penetration of a solid bullet, get the LOTT.
If not, the Win.Mag. is just fine.

For someone like me, who probably will only need a 'stopping rifle' for a really BIG Bear...the .458 Win.Mag. qualifies as just right.
It's less expensive for those of us that may not ever get to the planning stages of going to Africa for other Dangerous Game, whether the reasons are financial or as simple as no desire to go there.
The BIG Bears qualify as North America's DG, for sure.
I may never need a LOTT, and I may never need a Win.Mag., but I'd 'settle' for the .458 Win.Mag. for now.

.366,
heh, email hornady, and tell them to make a 500gr .475 bullet, just like their .458 bullet.

I think most of us agree, the lott at 2300 is still a high pressure gun... and all should be loaded to 2200-2250, basically...



Looking at it another way.. if "every" factory load is actually 100fps slower than published, would you rather start at 2150 or 2300?

jeffe

I do not own a 458 Winn at this time, but I once owned one in an Interarms Whitworth model. I was able to achieve 2110 fps (Chrono'ed with an Ohler 35) with Rem case's CCI 250 primer and 74 Grains of IMR 4895 and the 500 grain Horndy soft point. I now prefer the 416 Rigby's one in the Ruger and one in the CZ model

quote:

the lott improved on the win mag which was another reason never to own anything made by winchester !

Wow, there'a another "profundity" worthy of remembering. It was designed that way purposely in order to fit a standard length action. The 458 served as the standard for African PHs for decades after the demise of the Anglo twin-tubes and it STILL performs well providing you know it's shortcomings.

Maybe some of the folks here that own both and have tested both will chime in, but from what I've read so far, it seems that the Lott is exactly that, what the 458 Win MAg should have been, but no more. jorge

The Lott is what the Winn should have been , then the Watt's is what the Lott should have been.

I don't think the 'should've been' argument is as good as some of us want it to be.

The LOTT was never designed to fit into the more common shorter action, whereas the .458 Win.Mag. was designed exactly to do just that.

Like the .44 Special vs. .44 Rem.Mag., the case was stretched to make more power.
In the case of the rifle cartridges, the action had to be longer.

But Winnchester allready had a 375 H&H lenght action so why could they not have made the 458 case longer?

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
But Winnchester allready had a 375 H&H lenght action so why could they not have made the 458 case longer?

Because they were lazy and small minded.

Hog Killer

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
But Winnchester allready had a 375 H&H lenght action so why could they not have made the 458 case longer?

Because they were lazy and small minded.

Hog Killer

Well, now that you mention it...!

Ackley had it right. 2400 fps,500 grain bullet.
full length 2.85 length case, rebarrel a 375 H&H, and you've got it.

Want Nitro Express 2150 fps, and, you have the old classic, low pressure, 500 grain bullet, 2150 fps, or more.

I realize a full case is nice for consistent ignition, but compressed powder, and extra high pressure in high temp, is not.

Same problem with the winmag. Why is it us americans are constantly trying to jam everything into a small case? The Alaskan cartridges, etc.????

Do we hate the British that much, and won't go with their bigger case, low pressures? Are we just a nation that has to max hot rod everything, and, we think like our companies, only by the next two quarters, with no thoughts to longevity???
Or did Roy Weatherby so influence us, that we can't think for ourselves???

GS

I guess, because we never did figure out how to get 3 505 Gibbs or 577NE into the magazine box of a Krag...
Seriously: design parameters for a new cartridge hinge first and foremost around the available length, width, and depth of the action and magazine box. I believe it was Harry Selby (?) that had a 416 Rigby made up on a 98 Mauser action. I would loved to have been in the shop while that took place. Secondly, we have no dangerous game to speak of (relative to Africa and India). Most of those old british express rounds started life with a maiden name of BPE, then married into the cordite family and got a new last name...Nitro Express or such. Last, owning firearms was a privilege of the nobility and military. Ther was NO public game hunting...at least not legally. Imagine every square acre in north america was help privately (for the last 1500 years)...where would you hunt? And, where would you ever have gotten a firearm, excepting a scroungy old shotgun and a poachers license?
Last, who has the $$$ for double rifles? I think Butch Searcy is up to a DR a week out of his shop; I doubt 500 DGR doubles are sold a year here.

Just not ever been a viable hunting rifle option here.

Rich