quote:

I believe it was Harry Selby (?) that had a 416 Rigby made up on a 98 Mauser action.

Shelby's 416 Rigby was biult by the John Rifby company on a 98 Mauser action and was not unique as they also made others.

[Quote] by Idaho Sharpshooter
design parameters for a new cartridge hinge first and foremost around the available length, width, and depth of the action and magazine box. [Quote]

As already noted when Winchester came out with the 458 Win. they already had an action that would acomadate a longer round, so why the Fireplug?

I believe at that time Winchester was a firearms and ammunition company. They needed to look at not only what actions they had that could accomodate the new round, but also what other actions were out there. For ammunition to become a stong seller, more than the parent company needs to make guns for a round.

Good bad or indifferent, all excepting the 375 H&H which has held it's own for nearly a century, the most popular magnums have been standard length cases.

I have heard that they initially looked at the same cartridge case length as the 300wm and opted for the 2.5" version...for a reason known only to WW and God.

Rich

Why didn't they go with a 470? That's what I want to know!!

150 to 200 feet per second means that the faster cartridge will do what the slower one will at a greater distance. Maybe a gain of 60 to seventy yards. There will also be a difference in penetration. More with a solid not quite as much with a soft but still a little more. I chronographed a few 458 Winchesters with the standard 22 inch barrel that the Winchesters came out with and the velocities were in the low to mid 1900's. Take the same cartridge and load it with 450 grain bullets at 2250 and you've got yourself a good cartridge.
Take good care,
Dave

I have used the Lott and you will get no argument from me that it is a great cartridge and if someone feels that they need - or want - one then that is what they should get.
On the other hand, there is currently absolutely nothing wrong with the standard 458 Win. Yes, there were some early factory loads that gave velocities in the mid 1900fps range, as well as old boxes of ammo that proved succeptable to heat and time,(Older 416 Rigby, 505 Gibbs, 425 WR and 404 Jeffery ammo show the exact same problem plus they typically used bullets inferior to the ones the 458 used) But re-hashing the tired old dogma that the 458 gives sub-standard velocities is to ignore the fact that when using current modern ammo it does reach the same velocities it was designed to reach - and often more. If you read the early writing of Jack Lott he calims his original goal when developing the 458 Lott was simply to acheive the 2150fps that the original Winchester claimed to do as it was all that was needed. It still is. If you want more velocity then get a Lott but if you honestly believe that more velocity is better then why not get the 460Wby and be done with it?

Phil,

I don't know why, but most of us develop strange emotional attachments, and detachments to chamberings to such an extent that it clouds us from making practicle choices. We also seem to overly enjoy arguing minutia, items that don't make a lick split of difference in the field, or worse yet, fretting the little stuff and vastly missing the big picture.

I'm sure you've seen plenty of folks that allowed bearanoia to drive them in directions that they really shouldn't have gone.

I'd also say that they guys that spend the majority of their time in the gunroom, at the range or hear talking about guns keep going to bigger an bigger bores. And conversley, those that spend more and more time in the field taking animals choice lighter and milder mannered rounds.

Paul, How true you are.

Those last couple of posts by Paul H and 458Win are going to save me a 'LOTT' of money and headaches.
THANK YOU, Gentlemen!!!

( now, where's that Remington 798 / .458 Win.Mag. I've been looking for? )

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
there seems to be quite a bit of controversy (again) surrounding the 458wm VS Lott. Half of the posters have Lotts and get a couple hundred fps advantage over a 458wm. The other half do not, and get the same MV out of the 458wm they own as the Lott (that they do not own). From the data (not supposition) 458wm's in Africa struggle to pass 1950fps very much. Lott's in Africa struggle to pass 2200fps very much.

Hornady tells me they load Lott 200fps higher than the 458wm.

THE QUESTION: has anybody here actually chronographed 458wm, then rechambered to 458Lott and chrono'ed the 458wm and Lott to see?

Rich

I have, twice. One in a 24"barrel and one in an original 22" barrel. My findings were this;
My benchmark for performance was the 450N.E., 480gr. @ 2150 f/s.

I loaded the Win. Mag. with 480 gr. Woodleigh bullets. I was able to drive that bullet to 2230 f/s in a 22" barrel. The best that barrel would do with a 500gr bullet was 2135. Even at that, the Lott I made out of it only fired 500 gr. Hornady softs at 2165 f/s. 30 f/s faster than the Winny and needed a long action which Winchester saw fit to use on this rifle. On my 24" barreled Classic, the Win mag showed 2260f/s with 480gr. bullets and later 2275 f/s with 500gr Hornady softs. Not enough to hang a hunt on. The Winny was probably at higher pressure for sure but still within the confines of the Hornady load specs. I also think the Lott was high pressure. There could be statistically significant variables with different barrels, as well as the drag between Woodleigh and Hornady bullets. Who can say without a real lab to measure the real numbers. Not practical or essentially relevant as each rifle is a separate science experiment when it comes to the numbers game.

I think it really comes down to this. I shoot in Oklahoma and it really gets hot here. Hotter than most places we hunt dangerous game in on the African continent. If I am not having problems with my loading (bolt seizing, primers popping and such) then I am not likely to experience those problems in Africa. Essentially the arguement for the 458 is similar to the arguement over the 416. If you want a low pressure 416 use the Rigby or bigger case, If you want low pressure on the 458 use the Rigby or bigger case. The rest fall into the middle and the decision is more a matter of which length action you choose to use. The 458 fits comfortably in a standard action and is effecient with shorter barrels and the Lott is able to deliver the package at faster speed/higher pressure or slower/lower pressure. Choose your poison. Both are outstanding performers on heavy game.

As a side note, I have never shot a load in my 22" 458 Win. Mag that did not exceed 2100 f/s. I guess I could have but what is the point? Then again I have a lot of those 480 gr. Woodleigh bullets to shoot and they work fine just like the 450 N.E. did about 100 years ago when men didn't worry about such foolishness as "the elephant is dead, I wonder if I used enough gun"?
Idaho SS, where did you find this data you speak of? If it is from factory loaded ammo across a broad spectrum of sources then perhaps you might be a little off. Those numbers were more represenative of ammo that had been stored a long time and there is some evidence that the bullets over a compressed/crimped load had backed off a bit and that is the reason for the high variance. On hand loaded ammo the velocity is usually faster. In any case the difference in performance between 2100-2250 f/s might not be as much as one would be lead to believe. There will always be those that feel faster/bigger is always better. I am not one of those. Well not really any way. I do have a 500 Jeffery but I load it to 2150-2200 f/s and it shoots just fine.

I have a classic 458 and would make a challenge. I will furnish this rifle with 24" barrel from Winchester for load development as a 458 Winny then convert it to a Lott for comparison. I would do this if it can be empiricle. No agenda bull shit. It would have to be within the framework of sciecne not witchcraft. I gotta be convinced that it will be a real science project. Lay out a proposal. I think we all would learn a great deal about this issue.

I appreciate your candor and data. Mine came from Hornady. I am about to experience that offer you made. I have a 458WM in a Whitworth factory rifle. I was going to do a Lott on it for Africa next spring. After fondling the 510KX and the 505 Gibbs and upcoming 550 Gibbs, it just looks too small these days. A friend is buying it with the same idea (Lott) in mind. I hope to have the answer in a couple weeks.

Rich

Staying off topic: The Lott lets you get decent velocity with longer bullets than the Win-Mag.

Think "Barnes-X". No way are you going to get good velocity with a 500 gr. X bullet in the Win-Mag. Probably not even with the 450. But you can with the Lott.

That said, I struggle beyond 2250 with the Hornady 500 gr. softs. Things get sticky.

Pertinax

Just curious, Have any of you folks checked the speed of the Barnes XXX 450 grainers out of the Lott?

quote:

Just curious, Have any of you folks checked the speed of the Barnes XXX 450 grainers out of the Lott?

Barnes manual says 2450 with the X bullet in 450gr...I haven't heard much feedback on the TSX's due to their length I guess.

quote:

Think "Barnes-X". No way are you going to get good velocity with a 500 gr. X bullet in the Win-Mag.

Federal factory loads the 500gr TSX's in the Win Mag...velocity at 2050fps at the muzzle.

I haven't had a chance to try the triple shot in but did try the previous 450X in my first lott. From that I'd expected 2300 at the high end.

It is a looonnngg bullet. When I loaded a 450 gr X in my 458 lott, the powder capacity was the same as a 458 win mag loaded with a 500 gr hornady. I'm not sure what the right powder is, RL 7 was too fast, and RL 15 was too slow (not enough room in the case)

Took me by surprise but the ammunition problems are in the past right???? I think its this kind of random events that causes some concern in the 458WM ... and drives people to other factory (or otherwise) chamberings.
http://www.australianhunting.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11993
Cheers...
Con