The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 500 S&W NEF Rifle:UPDATE: 499 HE EXPRESS IS ALIVEGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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While looking for a 10 gauge NEF yesterday I came across a used 500 sw NEF. I was wondering about rechambering the barrel and came up with using 460 weatherby brass, necking it up to .500 caliber and headspacing off the belt. Using a cone breach like the 585 HE Ed Hubel has done. The SW runs at 50000 psi and I was kind of hoping to run the WB at 30000-35000, backthrust should be about 6228 at 35000 psi compared to 8093 for the 500 at 50000 psi. The base of the WB is .583 or .579, depending on who's drawing you look at. The SW has a .556 rim. Cast bullets up to 700 grains are available. 505 gibbs bullets could be ran thru a LEE sizer and you'd have an easy source of softpoint bullets. I'm hoping that 460 WB dies could be bored out in the neck to allow for the larger cartridge, that would make fairly cheap dies. Brass is fairly inexpensive. Reamer is still undecided, I'm definately up for opinions on who to make the reamer, never dealt with any of the makers. I'm kind of wondering if a 460 weatherby couldn't be used and then go in with another tool and open the neck? I realize this would have very limited usefulness, basically rechambering 500 SW NEF and nothing else because of .500 bore. But all I'm trying to do is get 550gr @ 1950-2050 at lowest pressure. Not interested in trying to hot rod it any more than that. So there is my attempt, please let me know if you guys think this to be possible and safe. I'm probably going to get the little 500 tomorrow even if I don't do this because it looks like fun. And no, no one in Oklahoma City had the 10 gauge Waterfowler, had to order it. Thanks for looking | ||
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Matt- Why not just make a 50-140 wildcat with a .499 bullet out of the .500S&W. That will do everything you want at low pressures. Your going to need a custom reamer,custom dies anyway. No it isnt cost effective to open up wby dies. Give CH4D your reamer dimensions and they will make dies for you. BTw you want a parallel throat not a cone shaped one for this cartridge. What your proposing is just a .499 version of the .500a2. Either way, its gonna cost you about $500 or more.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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I said the exact same thing a couple weeks ago... http://forums.accuratereloadin...031081111#2031081111 a 500-460 on that gun would be a cheap big boomer 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Exactly, a 500-460, or a .500 A Square, whatever you wanted to call it. Although I have been searching and found some 50 basic 3 1/4" brass available too. Either one could work. My original idea was to lengthen chamber like Rob mentioned and make a NE duplicate, just .500 instead of .510. But couldn't find brass until I saw some on Huntingtons website. | |||
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I think the .499-140 would be a good conversion,just make sure your gunsmith uses a piloted reamer and uses a pilot that is .500 S&W case diameter ( at the tightest point) till he hits the end of the S&w chamber, then switches to a .4985 pilot or you can wind up with an eccentric chamber. You should talk to JGS or Dave Kiff and see if he can grind a std .50-140 reamer down to .499. That might save you some bucks although I doubt even 50-140 reamers are off the shelf items. might be fun shooting 350 and 400 gr 500S&W bullets over 3000fps or so! Just some good unsolicited advice Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Hey Rob, I really appreciate your advice, and the help you have given me in the past, and the work on the 12 GAFH. That cannon is fun! Got a limbsaver for it now, we'll see if there 70 percent recoil reduction statement holds true!!  Also saw Hornady makes a 500 grain .500 caliber bullet for it. That'll be fun if it will work at rifle velocities. | |||
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Putting a S&W in NEF is a waste of real nice strong gun. I mean a real waste. How to fix such a miscarraige based on a gunwriters wet dream. Well speak of the NEF Devil. It is a virus, that gives everyone who touchs them same type of wild ideas. You might as well do it up right like I'm going to do, when guy gets S&W barrel here on a deal. Use on one of 6 SB2 actions I have.Call it my 50HE made from slimming down my 510HE. It is a long 3.6" case I made from 475 #2 brass, by just expanding it out and run in the dies. I made rim a little smaller than original 475, as I shot it a few times in an Enfield bolt gun, years ago, that since then has been used for my 585HE, with heavy barrel rebored for my 585HE. 510HE got 600 gr bullet in long barrel to 3000 fps. Now in a .499-.500" configuration, Case Rim still .630", base is .577", mouth .521", case 3.6" long. Makes a real neat case for NEF. I fired one case 30 times in Enfield , still good. I have 40 cases , I'll sell you 25 of them for same price as you'd pay w/shipping for 50- 3.25" from Huntingtons if your interested. 100 bucks,shipping included, cases all shaped and ready to load/fire.. That leaves me enough for 500-1000 shots as cases last forever. I'll do my chamber with my lathe tool,But Monday I will get right reamer dimensions down the road a few miles to Manson AND GET REAMER MADE ASAP FOR GUYS TO USE FREE. The case has .056" total taper of both sides, nearly identical to my long 458HE so it will extract real easy, with Hairy loads.Being rimmed you can use extractor, cut back. With that much taper you'd never stick the case. It is third case in pic with my 700HE next to it, and my 458HE 2nd.Ed  MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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Ed- Matt's trying to get into these big bores as inexpensively as possible. Remember most gunsmiths would not touch a project like monoblocking a NEF and rebarreling. Most dont have that level of skill and/or dont want the liability. I also like sub .50 cal cartridges given the political climate thats in existance these days. remember the 12GaFH was first conceived to stick it to Ca! The more .499 caliber cartridges out there the more difficult we make it for the anti-gun crowd. I dont think its a waste of a good action, because its a cheap action and well worth the sacrifice. There is no doubt your cartridges are better, but this may just still be a worthwhile project. Matt- always happy to help. I doubt that limbsaver will reduce recoil by 70%. More like 10% if your lucky. The NEF 12GaFH with the loads your using isnt that bad anyway! It can be made much worse though!-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Matt says he thinking of trying my cases in the 499-500" mode .We can call it the 499HE or 499 Long if needed. Or name it with Matt's last name.And cases can be had now to make more of them.Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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Hey Rob, yeah I laughed when I saw that they said a 70 percent reduction. Yeah right! I have it swapped out now and will see, I think it will help, that NEF pad is crummy hard rubber. You and Ed are a ton of help on this stuff. Ed, I think that the 500 smith gun is still fun for people who don't want to go to the hassle of rebarrelling and or rechambering. Most people don't want the added recoil/power of the big fun chamberings! Also, I know a lot of people that if you can't buy a box of ammo for it at Wal Mart they don't want it. There missing a lot of fun too! Sole reason I want to do this is to have a duplicate of the 500 Nitro Express without having to rebarrel. And it looks like it will deliver more than the NE, even better. I love the 12 gafh too, but I won't be able to shoot more than 10 or so rounds at a time, this will give something fun to shoot lots of rounds thru. I had also wanted a cheap case to use for this and this fills both those niches. I also like using a rimmed case for the NEF instead of a belt, I just didn't know when I started looking if something like the 475 necked up was plausible. NEF seem to be great guns, and the price is definately right. I know there not right for everyone. But the biggest most powerful cartridges can be chambered in them, that's not half bad for something that sells for less than the price of a .585 barrel! Ed and Rob, thanks again for all your help and answering questions. | |||
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the 460 will give you more boom but I like the 470 neck up idea... run a 470 reamer in and a 500 neck/throater. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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When you got a near 50 cal gun for such an economical price,250 new, at .499-500" caliber, and XTP bullets in 3 weights plus others around, at prices of a half of regular 50cal bullets, it just beckoned to me saying give it some power, like my long case I made from 475#2 brass. And now brass is readily available to do it .. Where 12 years ago when I first made case,they were scarce. He will get 25 cases ready to go, for 100bucks shipped, that cost 5 bucks each 15 years ago. Bit cheaper now. I not pushing it like my belted cases, it is just a combination of circumstances, an economical gun made by a big company, no barrel to make, no reboring, no barrel to buy, just a gun(break action) ready to go, where case length is no factor, and the case has a good taper for easier NEF extraction, and economical bullets. Just change chamber,and use .499cal real long rimmed case all tested and fairly easy to get and make now. Sometimes we can put a few, easy, no aggravation paths together to get something shooting with big power. And I'm going to HAVE A REAMER MADE ASAP for anyone to use free, that wants to do it. The one factor listed above, of case length not being limiting factor, is the greatest reason I like NEFs along with price. Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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A few options to consider A .500"-408 Chey-tac or 500 Gibs A .500" Overkill AKA 500-600 OK Rebore not rebarrel to 510 for a 577/500 and use .500 bullets via paperpatch and 510 BMG to rifle bullets. Is there enough meat on the barrel to be bored out to 577 (.585") for a 577NE conversion? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Boomstick-You cant rebore a .499 to .510. You really probably should refrain from offering gunsmithing advice! Unless you have actually been there and done that, advice like that just plain isnt helpfull. I know you mean well, but stick to what you know.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Could you not take out the rifling then do a 10 thou rifling? What about reboring to something larger? A 500-600OK would be quite the boomer on this if it would work. Thanks 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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A reamer won't run true trying to cut that small amount of difference. But if you want to spend $1200 instead of $200 you could cut the lands the same way they cut rifling; a thou at a time to bore diameter, then deepen the groves. That was the way LaBounty rebored old double rifles without separating the barrels. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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So it would chatter and not cut right... right? Ok so what about rebore to 550 for a 28 GFH and 585? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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That's generally correct. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Duh! NO YOU CANT DO THAT FOR BASICALLY OBVIOUS REASONS! A GUN DRILL WILL WANDER ALL OVER THE PLACE in such a small bore difference abd SCREW UP THE BORE IN THE PROCESS! WHO DO YOU KNOW WHO HAS SUCH A DRILL AND WOULD BE STUPID ENOUGH TO USE IT? Again- There is a difference between imagination and actual knowlege. Better not to embarass yourself. I know you mean well, but please refrain from providing advice about machining complexities about which you have NO EXPERIENCE. PLEASE TAKE THIS ADVICE! Ask those who know first! Others here on this board could get the wrong advice and think things are possible which are not. Get a few years of actual experience under your belt, then your advice will matter. We have told you this before, please listen this time. -Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Rob... I have never rebored a barrel. I do however have more imagination and eager beaver than the average guy and know that my enthusiasm can get away from me and if I offend it is not on purpose and so I am asking questions now in good faith. Can a 500 S&W single shot not be rebored to 550 or 577? Is there enough barrel thickness to rebore? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Boomstick- I've spent a few hundred thousand hours in front of Lathes and mills and at this point have a damn good idea of what can and cant be done. At last count I've built over 300 guns from .17 to 12gaFh over 35 years. Gun Drills dont exist in most machine shops as they are extremely specialized equipment as are rifling jigs and gear. Just how many guns have you rebored? Again please dont give advice unless you know what your talking about. I'm not offended and know you mean well but again, please stop it! Why would you try and rebore to 550 or 577 if monoblocking and rebarreling is an option as we all know it is. Matt has a good idea in staying with a .499 ca. wildcat and rechambering it as this way he is not creating a DD that has to be registered. It would be more productive to stick to giving him some good ideas on how to achieve his goal as inexpensively as possible.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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It is just like the 12GA FH we've done on the NEF. Use barrel as is, just redo chamber for a longer case. Same deal we are are doing with S&W NEF. Only reason to go to .510 bore is if there wasn't a good supply of bullets. But most stores have more S&W .499-500" stuff than they do .510-512" stuff. And we have couple deals out there making heavy jkt tough game .500 bullets, as well as all kinds of casting stuff. Getting stuff rebored-big money and bigger waiting time. If I want a 550 or 585, etc on a NEF SB2 frame, I just mono-block. Done two my 585 and 700. And if I mono-block on a SB2 frame I use 10ga to have less metal to remove before I thread it.Got a smoothbore heavy 16ga tube coming for a future one to have a thick barrel 16GA FH to test.Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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Geez! Thats 143.687 years! You look good for your age, lol. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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I have lotsa growth Hormone! Plus I add avon skin so soft to the coolant, thus I'm older than I look. BTW- My buddy and I are thinking about making NEF monoblocks by CNC, one piece out of 4140 just for rebarrelling to bigger calibers. They may cost about $300 each though and we need to get a positive read on any patents still outstanding. Wonder how much interest there would be? It would probably cost nearly that much to have a machinist cut down a NEF barrel, Drill it, ream it, thread it and face it. This way you keep your original barrel.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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I'd be stunned if you could maintain 10 units a year, if for no other reason than a gunsmith would like to make an extra hour or two cutting a monoblock off rather than making a thirty buck markup on a part. Finished barrels are a different market. Unfortunately, big bore NEF rilfes is a self-limiting sub-section of the big bore market. You'd have to be generous in your caliber selection. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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I'll be first in line if you guys make a few of these. Blake | |||
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Blake70- I'm going to the range tomorrow with a .600Ok to let a guy try it. If you can make it at 5:00pm you can take a few shots.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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The 500 is gone when I went back by. I talked to them about ordering one and they told me they couldn't find any at any of there suppliers right now? So, as soon as the do I should have one. Rob, I'd be in for one of the prototypes of your monoblock. I've got a 10 gauge on order if they ever find one? I'd have a switch barrel 10 gafh and 585 HE. Don't know why there having so much trouble finding them right now? I should have a 585 barrel at some point this fall, I think they said they were 8-10 weeks out when I talked to them? | |||
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Ed...do you have a reamer yet for your 499/500 HE??? Cases and dies available??? I'm guessing my 500 S&W barrel will take about a month to get here...two weeks of shipping time plus whatever time it takes for fitting. I thought about having PT&G grind a .500 neck-140 but as usual I'm way to slow and behind times and it's already been done so to speak...beside your case is BIGGER!!!! Also thought of doing a 500 Gibbs or just use a 505 Gibbs reamer and have CH4D do a set of dies for a .500 bullet size and I didn't think 0.005" will make much difference in this application....again, already done... Haven't found too many heavy 0.500" bullets. Ranger Rick has 535, 600, 610, and 700 gr hard cast, Hawk has some jacketed up to 450 gr, but other than that, I haven't hit many other, so I thinking of having CH4D do a bullet swager for me and swage down some 600 gr Woodleigh .505 bullets and turn some out of brass as I mentioned in the other thread. Thanks Luck on your projects. | |||
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I have a question on this subject. I have heard many people talk about how tough the NEF handi rifles are. Are they any better than a Thompson Encore? Or are they just a better value? I already have an Encore but I was just curious to know if the NEF was a stronger design. Thanks for the input and sorry if I hijacked the thread. | |||
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I'll have a reamer in 3 weeks maybe.I have some cases. That I will sell some to Matt, as he asked first and that leaves few for you to get..And/or You get 475#2 brass, send them to me and I'll redo them to the 499/500HE for very little like 50 cents each. As for bullets, seeing as how most guys will be using them for local game, use .500" S&W bullets of which there are more in the stores here by 10 times than .505" or .510" .That is idea of the case, is to get economical gun, with big power, and good bullet supply in stores and in catalogs.500gr XTP--$35 for 50 bullets. The Encore has about same strength as NEF, as I tested 12GA FH 3.5" cases in one to compare. Nef is a good value.A lot of guys like the Encore style.Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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Hello Ed, I'm excited about getting the thing reamed out. I found one used a couple weeks ago and have been playing with it in 500 sw but will soon be playing with it much more seriously. The gun can't weigh more than 7 pounds though, as Ed said earlier will definately want to add some weight. I've located the 350 grain hornady's locally, still haven't found any 500 locally, but I know they can be ordered easily. I sent Rob a drawing a week or so ago and will be having some 420 grain brass solids turned in the future. Basically if strength is comparable to the Encore you are getting a great deal on the NEF. New ones here in Oklahoma can be out the door for under 300. I'm sure they can be found cheaper elsewhere too. Ed, you have any ideas what we can do with the 500 grain hornady's out of this thing? Maybe in the 2250 range, or more? | |||
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Yes we will get 22-2300 at low pressures with a 500 gr.BPI, Huntington's, Precision, etc all have 500gr.Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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Sounds like the timing is just about right. No 500's available locally, I just checked today and my favorite gunshop is closing the first of the year and isn't ordering any stock of any kind now...he sold one box of 350's and still has one box of brass left. I will get some different bullet weights and types ordered from Ranger Rick and Midway and order some brass from where ever I can find it...I see there is some dimensional differences between the 475 Nitro Express and the 475 Nitro Express #2 cases. Dies...???...are you ordering any to sell made to order or will you send your dimensions to CH4D? I'm guessing this will be a neck size only or neck and maybe the top 1/4 to 1/3 of the case for real heavy loads... At least from the number crunching I've been doing...600 gr/2200fs/43kCUP - 140 gr H4831 - 140 FTLB recoil with 8 lb gun, over 90 FTLB with a 12 pounder...hope the muzzle break works good. Thanks Luck on your projects. | |||
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Yes you get the 475 #2, that is the one. With 500gr bullets and full load of W780 or RE25, 500ge slug 22-2300 plus at less than 30,000 psi.Brass will easily reload 50 times.Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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Ed, would 50bmg be appropriate in this? Or does anyone know where to get surplus powder? | |||
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HBMG would give you slower loads. Any surplus slow stick powders like HBMG good. Surplus powders at Jeff Bartlett. Big Sky surplus, Pat's Reloading. Good surplus powder in stock is WC-860 ball. WC-852 Slow ball is little better, but no one has it. I'd like to get some.Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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I've a 10 Ga 3 1/2 NEF. Question is if monoblocks were offered for this gun could an 8 Ga barrel be fitted to it? And if so, I'm starting to get interested. Rodney. | |||
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A few hundred bucks may seem expensive to a couple hundred dollar gun but this may be a unique way of getting into something very unusual with minimum expense. Just a thought on Robs idea, and a good one at that. Rodney. | |||
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Rodney H, is that the Waterfowler? If so, Ed has reamed his barrel out to 8 gauge and got some tremendous loads out of it. Using the 8 gauge cases at BPI and they also carry a 3 oz 8 gauge slug. I've been looking for a waterfowler and so has one of the local gun shops and have had ZERO luck so far. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 500 S&W NEF Rifle:UPDATE: 499 HE EXPRESS IS ALIVE
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