Is the 416 Rigby a better choice for hotter climates such as africa because of the lower pressures, and can a handloader develope loads well above the 416 Remington and still be at safe pressure levels?

I don't know if I read you question right, but the 416 Rigby is above the 416 Remington. The 416 Rigby uses 103 to 111 gr.'s of powder compared to 85 to 90 gr.'s of powder. I think this is what you were asking??

tanoose,
100 years ago, steels and powders were NOT what they are today. Powders could get really spikey in the heat (still can) and actions could be hit or miss....

so, "then" the rigby was the highest tech thing smoking... 410 at 2400fps.

the remington/huffman fit into a standard action, and leverage that powders and actions are better, to match the rigby..

better? are blondes better than redheads?
jeffe

I like the Rigby because the name just has a great ring to it

I have noticed that the .416 Dakota is very seldom mentioned. Should be the best of both worlds, large capasitity, fit in a standard action.

How come?

I read somewhere that the Rigby could be handloaded to Dakota and Weatherby velocitys but that the higher pressures were not reccommended for hot climates as to poor extraction. But i would think if one wanted to speed up the Rigby for Alaska that this would be safe. Am i correct on this? And what about the Remington i believe the smaller case is why it yeilds higher pressure so i would think that one cannot speed up velocitys much in the Reminmgton

Bent as far as the 416 Dakota goes i dont think the extra velocity ,cost and recoil merit its use. From what i am reading the Rigby and the Remington have no problems in getting the job done in both Alaska and Africa I think they both have been used with great success.

You can load the Rigby with 400 grain bullets to about 2700 fps safely if your shoulder can stand it. It probably doesn't gain a thing, I load mine to 2530 fps with the 400 partition, recoil is noticeably less and it'll kill anything that walks.

This one has been beat to death half a dozen times in the past here. J stevens has it right. You can load the Rigby up and I have done so. I loaded it back down too. 2530 is almost exactly what 104 gr of H4831 gives me with 400 gr SAF bullets will do in my Rigby. The Remington will give you about 2400 with a 400 gr bullet. That is plenty. The Remington is a bit more practical since it takes cheaper brass and less powder to give a package that will kill just about anything. The Rigby uses a bigger action and has old time nostalgia going for it. The bigger action is heavier. Some say that is a big disadvantage. I personally restocked my CZ and had weight added. It is about 11 pounds loaded and ready to go. I wouldn't want it a bit lighter.

The problem with the 416 Dakota is that there are so few of them sold and the ammo can only be found from one source, putting it into the same category as wildcat cartridges. As far as cartridge design is concerned, I agree that it is a good one.

This low pressure business with the Rigby is a fact, but so what, it means nothing today....The 416 Remington works off the same pressure scale as the 270, 7 mag, 300 win. and a host of others,

The 416 Rem. can be made up on a smaller action and lighter barrel into a lighter, trimmer, sleeker 40 caliber that duplicates the 416 Rigby...

The Rigby is a Nostalgia cartridge, as is the 404 Jefferys, both great rounds, but lets call them for what they are...

I love the 404, its my favorite cartridge, but it will not best the 416 Rem, not one bit.....

The truth is the 416 Rem is the most practical and best DG round to come down the pike in several hundred years...

Some will bash the belt, others make claims of high pressure, both claims are pure BS and come from reading too many magazines, the same thing that ruined my golf game!!

If I wanted a big action like the one required by the 416 Rigby, then I would open the case to a .500 cal. bullet and have myself a real gun...If I gotta pack all that extra steel and wood then make mine a 500 Jefferys or 505 Gibbs.

quote:

Originally posted by Tanoose:
Is the 416 Rigby a better choice for hotter climates such as africa because of the lower pressures, and can a handloader develope loads well above the 416 Remington and still be at safe pressure levels?

YES the .416 Rigby is better in hotter climates and YES the .416 Rigby can be loaded from below the levels of the .416 Remington(42,000 psi. for the Rigby as compared to t65,000 psi. for the Rem.) to almost the level of the Mighty .416 Weatherby. Lawdog

YES, the 416 can duplicate a 416 Remington with the Rigby at 55,000 or a bit less PSI and the Rigby at 42,000 PSI, so what?

Either will work fine in Africas heat, and do every day of hunting season...The days of cordite are long gone...

OOPs, make that Remington at 55,000...in the above.

All that guff about the Remington and high pressure is just that, GUFF. It's loaded no hotter than the "venerable" 375 H&H yet you never hear about pressure problems with that round. The 416 Rem did have some pressure problems when it first came out, but that was corrected long ago.

I have a Rigby myself and to get 2400 fps you don't need all the powder listed above. I get that using 90gr of IMR 4350. Used it to take a buffalo this past June. The Remington can be made in a lighter, trimmer action. Knowing then what I know now were I to use such as huge action as the Rigby I might as well have gotten a Lott. jorge

Ray is right. Lower pressure maybe with the Rigby but who has seen high pressure in a Rem. in Africa, first hand? No one?

And the Rigby eats up magazine capacity, which is not a good thing.

.

I've owned the Remington, Rigby and Wby versions and I'll take the Remington hands down. No pressure troubles even at 2450fps in the three rifles I've owned chambered to it.

For some reason Remington has downloaded their factory 416 Rem ammo to 2200 fps. Unless Alf or Ganyana told Rem about the high pressure symptoms they observed, there must have been someone else who saw it as well. Or else why would Remington download the cartridge?

As for the 416 Rem operating at the same pressure as the 375, that may be so, but I download the .375 too because I want everything to work perfectly. And the animals will not notice 100 fps difference in velocity.

quote:

the same thing that ruined my golf game!!

SO TRUE!!!!

quote:

I've owned the Remington, Rigby and Wby versions and I'll take the Remington hands down. No pressure troubles even at 2450fps in the three rifles I've owned chambered to it.

Isn't it a 375 H&H case necked up? If so, why not go to the Lott? Besides, don't you have to use a REMINGTON POS RIFLE to shoot that round?

Could you take a CZ, in 416, and rework the magazine to take the Remington 416?

G

.

Alf: If you have to rebarrel, why not go to the Lott?

G

GS - many people find the .416s the upper limit of their recoil tolerance. That may not be the case here, but it is something to consider. I own both a .416 Rem and a .458 Lott, and there is marked difference in the felt recoil of both of my rifles. I have yet to hunt Africa ('06 hopefully), but I have hunted central Florida extensively in the summer with my .416 and have never experienced any problems with sticky extraction.

G'day, I have owned both of these cartridges, and to be honest, in the field, I cannot tell them apart, and I am fairly sure that any of the critters I have shot couldn't tell them apart either. The Rigby, while a very nice round, can be hard to find here in Oz, while with the Rem, I can make them out of 375H&H cases.
So, I guess for me, the 416 Rem is it, for now. Mind you, I only load to about 2250 fps with the Woodleigh 400gr sp, which works just fine on buff, scrub bull and banteng.
Just my $.02 worth.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

Alf, GS,

I did the same but with a new version CZ, i.e., changing from a 375 to the 416 Rem. The simple change of a new barrel (and bluing) gets five 416 Rems. down in the magazine, a big plus in my book.

.

The only difference between the Rigby and the Remington is the cost of ammunition and magazine capacity.

The Remington wins both categories.

But the Rigby mystique, history and tradition keep it going strong. I have both a Rigby (CZ 550 based) and a Remington (Win. Model 70) and wouldn't trade either one.

ALF

Since you have have so many Brno ZKK 602 rifles in your gun vault taking up all that room, I will be a gentleman and offer to take some of them off of your hands thus giving you more room and saving you the expense of having to feed them! I am sure that they will be very happy in my vault with my Brno ZKK 600 and 602's. Besides, I have been told by several people that the newer CZ 550 series rifles are far superior! Again, being a gentleman and kind hearted person, I am willing to help you in your time of need.

Mauser Rifle

NRA Life Member
ATA Life Member

Everyday is a great day, some are just better than others!

ALF and 500grains

I am in agreement with your posts concerning the high pressure issues with the 416 Remington on the PH shooting course as I have read the same report in African Hunter.

500grains

I may be wrong, as I do not own a 416, but load for load, isn't the pressure still less or the 375 versus the 416?

Mauser Rifle

NRA Life Member
ATA Life Member

Everyday is a great day, some are just better than others!

I heard from George Hoffman that the .416 Remington was coming, so I had an order placed by my Remington dealer with the Custom Shop for one.

In due course it arrived with 100 rounds of Remington factory ammunition, a mix of softs and solids. Off I went to the range and shot some rounds. On th efirst round the barrel band departed the rifle. One the third round the extractor failed.

I have looked at the data published in African Hunter at their offices in Harare. What they report is what was observed.

Remington also loaded the 7 mm RM down 2,000 psi because of pressure excursions, and they have done a similar download with the .416.

My opinion is there is smoke and fire here, at least with Remington factory rifles.

Custom rifles are usually so well fit that by the time you detect "pressure signs" you are somewhere over 70,000 psi.

jim

Jim,
I personally think in this case were "if their is smoke their is BS"....I don't doubt that Ganyana had 416 problems, my question is why, the rifle?, the load? lots of varibles cause pressure..

Africa btw, does not own the hot zone, I got my first 416 Remington when I lived 60 miles South of Marathon on the Mexican border in the Big Bend of Texas, close to Presidio, Texas if you watch the news, an average day is 120 in the summer with some days hotter...It didn't bother my 416 Rem...I suspect any problems with the 416 Rem result from the nut behind the handle of the powder measure!

Also I have used it in Tanzania, Zimbabwe and RSA for the last 25 years or so as I recall and before that the Hoffman loaded right up there..

Most all bolt action calibers operated at the same pressure levels as the .416...Hardly any operate at the 42,000 PSI of the Rigby, but it is terribly underloaded for the case capacity...

Ray,

I know you love to qualify data on the other side of your argument as BS, but please check what I described. Remington rifle and Remington factory ammunition, and three rounds were enough to break the rifle. That is why I limited my remarks to Remington factory rifles.

jim

.

quote:

Originally posted by Tanoose:
Is the 416 Rigby a better choice for hotter climates such as africa because of the lower pressures, and can a handloader develope loads well above the 416 Remington and still be at safe pressure levels?

"YES" to both questions. As a matter of fact the .416 Rigby can be loaded to ALMOST equal the .416 Weatherby, but of course if you do so, you lose any advantage due to lower pressures vs the Remington!!

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
I have noticed that the .416 Dakota is very seldom mentioned. Should be the best of both worlds, large capasitity, fit in a standard action.

How come?

i'm with ya on that when it comes to the rem 416...the rigby is nostalgia AND very powerfull at the same time. thats a good combo that is hard to resist for me

I have certainly had no problems with my 416 Rem Mag. Was shooting it a couple of days ago and my loads are conservative using 2208 (australian ADI powder) and I get 2330-2350fps no problems and no signs of pressure. The good thing about 2208 is its temperature stable.

Can only think that if Remington has reduced their loads then they may have had further problems with that slither of an extractor on their rifles. Maybe they should look to Sako for a decent extractor like others do!

boom stick,

No, it doesn't make you look fat, but it makes you look...., well, it doesn't make you look fat!

Jim,
Without going into detail of what I think of those magazine reports on pressure in the .416, on cutting back the factory loads I bring to your attention that it is SOP for factories to over load a new round to impress folks, then seripticously cut them back, they did it with the 30-30, 458, 30-06, 280, 270 and a host of others...

I also believe that if their was a problem with the .416 then it would have certainly showed up with me as I load it to the 2400 FPS plus and have for years. Have hunted the hottest of climes with it. Your right I don't have to agree with misleading information and do refer to it as BS...

Alf,
Correct, and as you know George Hoffman was my best friend, and that was my introduction to the .416, however my first .416 was simply a 375 case necked up to 416 ala the .416 Rem....

I shoot the Rem 416 at 2400 fps with no problems
When I loaded it to almost 2475Fps my cases stuck so I don't do that anymore. 2400 is enought FPS.