I now own a copy of the 1887 Lever shotgun of IAC brand and have read that at one time a few where made in a rifle that shot a .70cal 900 gr bullet at 1300 fps, who will be the first to build one I ask ?? With modern metals and maybe som better brass we mabe able to push the 900 gr pill to say 1900 fps.

I thought I owned the most powerful lever gun in a 50-110 but it seems there could be a ressurection, I wonder who will be the first to have one eon AR If I had the funds it would be me

Be nice short 12ga FH if ones built now would work for case that big. Base & rim of 70-150
is close to same as 12ga.Only shorter.Ed

PC,
You'll also need a gunsmith ... poor Bob's still traumatised by your 50-110 I thought that cartridge was a promotional stunt by Winchester ... none actually saw the light of day. I could be wrong though??
Cheers...
Con

It was made for an 1887 Winchester lever action 12 gauge shotgun. It is in fact a necked down brass 12 ga round. I had an article on this somewhere, but cannot find it right now. It was made for the Winchester cartridge board and it was reported i nthe article that no more than 5 were ever made?

Not facts, just what I remember.

333_OKH
Cartridges or operating firearms???
Cheers...
Con

My understanding, also, is that the cartridge was made but no firearms for it. But none the less, a very interesting idea!

p.c.

you could build the 470 a.r. on a b.l.r. 500 gr@ 2300+ fps...

that would be the baddest lever gun avaliable. p.s. did i say that i want one

.600 Ok is 900gr bullet,.620 and 2500fps. PC you need one of these. You can be the first in OZ!-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
.600 Ok is 900gr bullet,.620 and 2500fps. PC you need one of these. You can be the first in OZ!-Rob

Yeah I need that to Rob !!

But now we have these IAC made shotties (I have one and it's not finished to badly for a china made thing) I reckon one of you Bigbore sicko's need to build one and get a brass run done by Horneber for the baddest lever gun round going around !! I reckon with proper brass we might crack 2000 fps wit ha 900 gr .70 cal bullet from a lever gun !!

Con Bob does not know it but he is a supurb lever smith as well as bolt action man !! reckon I could talk him into a .70-150

Here is pics below of my IAC shottie

Apparentlt only three 1887 .70-150's are in existence today

I wonder who on AR will be the first to re-introduce this gem, it would make a great close cover pig rifle wit ha an xs ghost ring

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
I reckon one of you Bigbore sicko's need to build one

PC,
You definately need some therapy. Your in denial!! Mate...with a 585Nyati and 50/110 in the safe ... you ARE a Bigbore sicko! Your recent affliction and purchase of non-CF actions has me worried though.
Cheers...
Con

I found th3 .70/150 cartridge and a reference to it having been chambered in the 1887 in Barnes Cartridges of the World, some time back.

I have been thinking about building just such a gun, but not to have a 'whopper-stopper' but simply to have an affordable bore gun.

I am just waiting for the reliable 1887s to arrive and then I will start the plotting and scheming in earnest.

several models of the 87 were around, 10ga, 12ga, and the 70 -150, fitted with express sights. BUT, lets be serious, it ammounts to a modern 12ga rifled barrel shooting slugs.. not a bad thing.

One could easily replaced the smoothbore with a rifle 12ga barrel (or 10 if you wanted some weight) and chamber for 12 bore paradox, fit some express sights, and have a fun pounder.

IAH = norinco, in this case
jeffe

The 1887 action even with modern steel is a pretty weak design. I think you'd be forced to stay in the 12-13 hundred fps class MAX. Consider the poor mans paradox conversion. Cut back the smoothbore barrel to 16 inches and externally thread it at least 1.5 inches maybe more. I have not yet deceided exactly what thread to use. Next get a 8 inch section of 12Ga rifled barrel from ER shaw and internally thread it to fit the barrel. Machine in a forcing cone at the bottom of the thread. This should force the .731 bullet into the .710 lands and swage into the .729 grooves of the barrel. Use a .731 diameter, 1000 gr paradox bullet from NEI crimped into a 12 ga Hull. You might also have it ported about one inch from the muzzel with fine holes for a machined in muzzel brake! I'd probably also make a locking ring ala the Savage design to lock the rifled barrel extension in place and make it look a little nicer. Some knurling would give it a little bit of a suppressor appearance depending on the diameter of the ER shaw barrel.! I'll bet the combination I just described will work really well and only cost you a couple of hundred bucks.If someone only made a Gain twist barrel in 12 Ga you could really have something there. By the way, this idea should work just as well on a 12 ga Pump gun. The Paradox concept is very low pressure! All in all you'll get some improvement over a 12 Ga rifled slug, and have a really novel gun.-Rob

quote:

I am just waiting for the reliable 1887s to arrive and then I will start the plotting and scheming in earnest.

Bwana,

my friend and I both have them and no drama's whatsover, admittadly I have only put through a tad over three packs of shells. It is finished quite well and I was a little suprised. Originally a bad batch did come to Oz but they where sent back and I beleive where sold as Blems to Davidsons in the states and then passed onto the public as such.

PC,

I shouldn't tell tales out of school but I'll explain my reasons for waiting. Granite Arms have been working towards importing the 1887s for quite some time. We have had a couple of small lots in for testing and, each time, have found faults and problems that we did not want to pass onto the customer. We currently have a list of changes required, with the manufacturer, and are just waiting for confirmation that they have been carried out and that the shipments can start.

I don't believe that the present 1887s have had the benefit of that testing and development. While most of them will work fine, I have heard rumours of two that have failed, already.

Thanks, but I'll wait for the tested and improved shipments (with 28" barrels) - they will cost more but I think that it will be worth it.

One option that Granite Arms have already discussed (some time back), and which relates directly to this post, is the option of having some 1887s fitted with rifled or paradox barrels and sights at the factory. I was going to post this concept to this site to gauge interest, in the future, however it will only be looked at when the 1887s are 100% reliable.

quote:

Originally posted by BwanaBob:
PC,

I shouldn't tell tales out of school but I'll explain my reasons for waiting. Granite Arms have been working towards importing the 1887s for quite some time. We have had a couple of small lots in for testing and, each time, have found faults and problems that we did not want to pass onto the customer. We currently have a list of changes required, with the manufacturer, and are just waiting for confirmation that they have been carried out and that the shipments can start.

I don't believe that the present 1887s have had the benefit of that testing and development. While most of them will work fine, I have heard rumours of two that have failed, already.

Thanks, but I'll wait for the tested and improved shipments (with 28" barrels) - they will cost more but I think that it will be worth it.

One option that Granite Arms have already discussed (some time back), and which relates directly to this post, is the option of having some 1887s fitted with rifled or paradox barrels and sights at the factory. I was going to post this concept to this site to gauge interest, in the future, however it will only be looked at when the 1887s are 100% reliable.

Maybe your right Bwana I am not sure but from what I have read Coyte Cap Gunworks are the primary people responsible for the chinese copy of the 1887 that is now available (The Australian Market was not the primary target for these guns but rather the American CAS scene) and that there where some flaws fixed from the first ones made, mine and my friends both have the "drop 2" feature and it works.

Cap gunworks also get some of these guns and do extra improvements to them and there sold as special edirtions models from Cap Gunworks themselves.

I was aware that the first shipment that arrived had issues, but any rate these guns my friend and I have work and function so no complaints yet..........................I will lety you know if they stuff up.

I would like a long barreled version as well actually but for chasing foxes and pigs from the back of the ute this 20" version is ideal considering the restrictions we live with.

I'm waiting for the 28" version as well, meant to be about $1200AUD.

BwanaBob do you know if the 28" version will have chokes fitted?

quote:

BwanaBob do you know if the 28" version will have chokes fitted?

I am fairly certain that they will be full choked but not with screw-in chokes as that would push the price up much higher (but I will check on this and report back). I believe the thinking was to bring in a long barrel with a tight choke so that owners could have them adjusted, by their own gunsmiths, to suit. Whether that be shortening the barrel or having screw-ins, such as Brileys, fitted it is up to the owner.

quote:

but from what I have read Coyte Cap Gunworks are the primary people responsible for the chinese copy of the 1887 that is now available (The Australian Market was not the primary target for these guns but rather the American CAS scene)

That maybe so, but irrespective of who started the "ball rolling", the ones that had been brought into Australia previously were not of a standard that was acceptable for Australia (and I don't think that they would have been acceptable in the US, either). They felt good, they functioned and they shot (I put a few rounds through one and liked it) but there were issues that it was felt should be corrected BEFORE they are imported in any numbers. For example, the very first imports (for testing only) didn't have any safety at all - not even a half-cock safety! A safety had to be fitted before Australian Customs would release the test guns (later versions, at the insistance of Granite Arms, now have half cock safeties). There were also some serious metalurgy issues with the barrels which Granite Arms took up with the manufacturers, and there were other issues, too. So, irrespective of who was driving this project from the US, Granite Arms has had a huge input into getting these guns towards a higher standard of reliability than they originally exhibited.

My concern, and I hope that I am wrong, is that the guns that have come in so far have not benefitted from that work and may be models produced before the changes were incorporated.

Just found this site last week and have read with interest the 12GFH project you guys are working on(and all the other Big Bore stuff) I wanted to get some pictures of my project before I started posting, but oh well.

I have been working on this project for awhile now. I have been working on '87's and '01's for cowboy shooting for about 10 years now and decided I needed a 70-150. Especially after I found a bare receiver for an '01 at a gun show.(they only made 13,000 or so of them) The '01 has additional locking features and is made out of better steel. Yes it is an original Winchester. I have barreled the action with a Kreiger .701 barrel, the one they make for the 700 H&H, as it was the only thing I could find at the time.(I believe the guys working on the 12GFH have a better plan with the .730 barrels) Anyway, my version is the 700 Fireball Express, as I had Clymer(chamber and die reamers) make some changes to the case and I'm using slightly smaller bullets. Mountain Molds made up a custom mold for me, it casts out to 962 grains unlubed. I am using Magtech 12 gauge brass. The formed case will hold about 200 grains of 2F BP to the base of the seated bullet. This is not intended to be a 12GFH as I don't believe the action is strong enough, even in the new reproductions so it will be loaded with BP(and some lube wads to take up space) to start and possibly some light smokeless down the road. A contact in the ballistics field has ran some programs on it and thinks 1300-1400fps is a realistic result. I'm about half way through making the dies for it and then we will be on to chambering it. It has sat idle for several months due to increased "primary" job hours and due to alot of second job(part time gunsmith) work on the reproduction 87's. Finding this site and reading about your fun has got me going on it again though!

If you use our 12GA FH case, shortened for
70cal use instead of others, you can get 1500+,
due to the strength of our brass,I fired one
36 times and no resizing on bottom half.Ed

Bwana Bob,

you guys still hogging the 1887's? Our story here was that Tri-Star went to Australia to have them built for us Cowboy Action Shooters, and with your firearms restrictions the export button is not getting pushed.
Got any infor on that story?

regrds,

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Bwana Bob,

you guys still hogging the 1887's? Our story here was that Tri-Star went to Australia to have them built for us Cowboy Action Shooters, and with your firearms restrictions the export button is not getting pushed.
Got any infor on that story?

regrds,

Rich

I am not sure of that story but my guess is that it must relate to the first attempt to produce 1887s. Some years back, Australian Defence Industries (ADI) were going to build 1887s. They produced a handful of guns and then, I think, realised that it was going to be an expensive and troublesome project. I have been told that the 1887s require a lot of hand fitting and this makes them uneconomical to produce here.

Which is why the new 1887s are coming out of China and why there is a lot of work required to get them right.

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Be nice short 12ga FH if ones built now would work for case that big. Base & rim of 70-150
is close to same as 12ga.Only shorter.Ed

Ed according to Copyote Caps Gunworks (initiator of the 1887 ressurection) his actions are proofed for 43500 psi so with your shortened 12 g from hell case and a 900 gr pill where would you get with say 30-35k psi as far as velocity goes ??

Using to make 70-110 case, short barrel,
35k load would get you about 18-2000 fps
as a guess.Anyone have a case to see how
much of what powder can be gotten below
bullet.Then I could use formula, get fairly
accurate estimate.Will these lever actions handle a full 3 inch brass case in 12ga, with
a blunt Dixie slug protruding 1/4 inch??
Or would case need to be 2 & 3/4? I like looks of those actions, and with that high of
test has possibilities with our case.

I just been told they set up for 2 & 3/4 in.
Big question- when single loaded directly into
chamber, how much room?? IE could our long
case go in if chambered that way.??? I have another 12ga heavy, good condition Pacnor
barrel, just wanting to make noise.... another
singleshot??Ed

Here is a link to some banter on other forums about this project.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=14386&mode=linear

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=38724

In a related move...

I am shooting slugs in a Savage 210. It works for my purpose, shooting whitetails down along the Sanke River, to use the Lyman Sabot Shocker in paper. The slug looks like a wasp-waisted air rifle pellet, and loads in a trap wad. The slug weighs 530gr in pure lead, the same weight as a 1 1/8oz trap load. I get to 1900fps before blowing wads badly and degrading accuracy. Scoped, it shoots 2moa or a bit better out to 200yds.

Just a swag, but you might be best off cutting the brass case to 2 5/8ths and going to match the oal of the original brass case. That or making a bullet that fits in the case like a full wadcutter 38spl target load.

Rich

I reckin it might be possible to maybe turn the woodleigh flat noses down to around 900 grains to use.....................my personal preference if I had the $$ would be to have a fully rifles barrel.

You guys are a day late anda dollar short..
Check out this link for some big brush busters on this action.

http://p223.ezboard.com/fbritishmilitariaforumsfrm4.sho...ge?topicID=390.topic