I've been thinking of buying/making a big bore for elk/black bear hunting in the coastal mountains of Oregon (rain forest jungle). Been toying with the idea of putting a 458 American together. It has to be stainless steel, 20" barrel and synthetic stock with a low power fixed scope. Also thinking of using something like a Hornady 350 gr. round nose. I'm not much of a lever action guy, so a 45-70 isn't a consideration. Here's what I'm considering...chime in and tell me I'm crazy...

1. Rebarrel a short action WSM rifle of some sort. My understanding is the the bolt face will work. Not sure about how it will feed, but that can be modified. A short action, light weight rifle would be nice. I assume it will be in the high 30/low 40 ft./lbs. of recoil, which is ok by me. 8 lb. total rifle weight with scope would be nice.

2. Rebarrel a decent used stainless steel 7 rem mag or similar. Probably less expensive than option 1 above, but obviously a longer action.

3. Forget the 458 American and consider 1 or 2 above with the 450 Marlin instead.

4. Buy a 458 Win Mag, load up some reduced loads and call it good.

5. Scrap the whole big bore idea, whack a 30-06 barrel down to 20", load up some 200 gr. Nosler Partition Semi-Spitzers and call it good.

6. Buy a slug barrel for my 870 and scrap ideas 1-5.

Any thoughts? Thanks in advance, Larry

Unless I wanted a big bore project, I'd go with the '06.

If you really want to play with a big bore, buy a 458.

You might also consider a 375 H&H.

I get way more technical than I need with this stuff. A buddy of mine has killed dozens of elk with his .270 and 130 gr. bullets - of various manufacturers - all mixed together. He might have a Hornady, next to a Sierra, next to a whatever was on sale when he needed more bullets. It would be hard for me to tell him he shouldn't be mixing bullets or a 130 is too small for elk.

I'd like something "different", but when I look at ballistic tables, a 458 American or similar is a 150 yd. max. elk cartridge - fine for the jungles of western Oregon, but if I would happen to find a bull in a clear cut at 250 yards, i'm going to be kicking myself. It's a hammer out to 100 yards, but falls off super fast after that. I have used a 300 Weatherby Ultra Lightweight the past 10 years or so with 180 grain Barnes TSX bullets. Works like a champ in most situations, but it's far from ideal where I'm talking about.

the American is just a hot-rod 45-70 or 450 Marlin with the advantage of not being able to buy brass or loaded ammunition. The reamer and die set will bankrupt you.

Think about a CZ 9,3x62. If the german settlers in Africa could kill buffalo and elephant with them you'll be okay on anything in NA.

Rich

I like craigster's idea, the 375 H&H suggestion. You mention long and short range, excess power and something different == 375. My old M70 is pretty easy to haul around.

Not worried about buying factory loaded ammo...I've been reloading for 38 years.

I have actually considered the 375 H&H at different times. A 10 lb. 375 kicks about the same as my 8 lb. 300 WBY. - low, to mid 40's ft./lb. My only thought on the 375 is that most have 24" barrels and I'm not sure I'm gaining/changing much "carrying-wise", but the 375 would make a larger hole, that's for sure.

.375 Ruger Alaskan seems to be to obvious choice to me.

Or dare I say a Ruger .338 RCM in stainless.

458 noveske/MDM (wsm to .458) in a short action
458 AR in a standard action

416 ruger and a hacksaw!

450 marlin, not american .. you can't buy american ammo (period) so anything you could do with the maerican you CAN do with the marlin

6.5,

You could hack off the bbl on a 458 or 375 down to 20" and be just as handy as a 30-06. I see a lot of good looking DG guns pictured on AR just like that. And, IMHO you dont need anywhere near 10 lbs in a 375HH, 8.5 maybe. Plus you reload, so power can be adjusted and you only need 270gr bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5Gibbs:
Not worried about buying factory loaded ammo...I've been reloading for 38 years.

I have actually considered the 375 H&H at different times. A 10 lb. 375 kicks about the same as my 8 lb. 300 WBY. - low, to mid 40's ft./lb. My only thought on the 375 is that most have 24" barrels and I'm not sure I'm gaining/changing much "carrying-wise", but the 375 would make a larger hole, that's for sure.

I have a Savage 116 Weather Warrior in 375 H&H with CRF. It's 6-1/2 pounds with open sights. It's not fun to sight in at the range, but it's great to carry. And, you can always load it on the light side for elk and blackies. Here in AK I carry 300 grain heavy loads all the time. If I were going to do a wildcat for what you described it would be a .416-300 WSM, otherwise known as a .416 Alaskan Express. That would be perfect for your short action WSM conversion.

So many calibers - so little time

Thanks to all for the input so far. I got sidetracked tonight watching the Nebraska/Oklahoma game.

I was wrong on the recoil of the 375 H&H. The 270 gr bullet in the 375 kicks about the same as a 180 in my 300 WBY with the same weight rifle. I was probably thinking of 300 grainers. I checked some various loads on my Lock, Stock and Barrel reloading program. All below figures are in 8 lb. rifles.

458 Win Mag 350 gr @ 2310 fps 48.3 ft-lbs (somewhat reduced load - 2500 fps is max per Hornady with 350 gr)
375 H&H 270 gr @ 2650 fps 45.4 ft-lbs
300 WBY 180 gr @ 3200 fps 43.9 ft-lbs

I like the idea of a short 416 "somethingoranother". The BC of some of the various 416 (and 375 for that matter) bullets would make a huge difference if I need something for a little longer range.

I'm going to have to digest what has been posted and do some research. Going bear hunting tomorrow so need to head to bed now. Again, thanks for the input...plenty to think about tomorrow while I'm tromping around in the snow.

A 458 would be more then enought for a black bear and too much for a ELK. You have some distance for ELK shooting.

quote:

4. Buy a 458 Win Mag, load up some reduced loads and call it good.

Get's my vote. You can always load down a .458 Win but if you wanted a bit more than the 458 Amreican it would be hard to load up.

quote:

Originally posted by WyoJoe:

quote:

4. Buy a 458 Win Mag, load up some reduced loads and call it good.

Get's my vote. You can always load down a .458 Win but if you wanted a bit more than the 458 Amreican it would be hard to load up.

I'll put in another vote for 458 WM. 350-400g bullets in the 2000-2300 fps range arent really that much of a download, you'll be stuffing the 458 american to get that.

The beauty is that you can go buy a used rifle and be ready to go in no time. I'd look for a lighter rifle, many 458s are clubby and too heavy, even for full power loads. Take a look at the Browning Safari thread, a great high quality, great handling rifle that seems to have been made for a lighter NA game load.

A modern 45-90 (2.4" case) using shortened 458 Win mag brass with 45-70 bullets in a short action and 3" OAL is an interesting option.
Shoot 45-70 speeds or a few hundred more feet per second if you like. Think of it as a 450 Marlin Magnum It would be what the Lott is to the Win Mag.
Considering the 3" OAL and the functional impact velocities of the variety of 45-70 bullets it makes more sense to me than the 458 American.
Maybe what the 458 American should have been

I have a custom Mauser built by Lowell Manley in the 404-416 caliber, with forming and reloading dies. It is the 404 Jefferey necked down (and shortened, I believe) to 416. Gives better bullet selection with the 416, and the move from .423 to .416 creates a more definitive shoulder for headspacing. Cool little cartridge. CPC loads for the round as well.

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5Gibbs:
I've been thinking of buying/making a big bore for elk/black bear hunting in the coastal mountains of Oregon (rain forest jungle). Been toying with the idea of putting a 458 American together. It has to be stainless steel, 20" barrel and synthetic stock with a low power fixed scope. Also thinking of using something like a Hornady 350 gr. round nose. I'm not much of a lever action guy, so a 45-70 isn't a consideration. Here's what I'm considering...chime in and tell me I'm crazy...

1. Rebarrel a short action WSM rifle of some sort. My understanding is the the bolt face will work. Not sure about how it will feed, but that can be modified. A short action, light weight rifle would be nice. I assume it will be in the high 30/low 40 ft./lbs. of recoil, which is ok by me. 8 lb. total rifle weight with scope would be nice.

2. Rebarrel a decent used stainless steel 7 rem mag or similar. Probably less expensive than option 1 above, but obviously a longer action.

3. Forget the 458 American and consider 1 or 2 above with the 450 Marlin instead.

4. Buy a 458 Win Mag, load up some reduced loads and call it good.

5. Scrap the whole big bore idea, whack a 30-06 barrel down to 20", load up some 200 gr. Nosler Partition Semi-Spitzers and call it good.

6. Buy a slug barrel for my 870 and scrap ideas 1-5.

Any thoughts? Thanks in advance, Larry

In the early eighties I toyed with having a Siamese Mauser action made into a 45-70 or 450 Alaskan or 450 Fuller, or 50 Alaskan. That went on for a while, -$$$$$- and a gunsmith kept telling me to just have him build me a 458 WM on a regular Mauser 98. After a few years, I sold the Siamese actions, and other associated stuff and got a used 458 WM, and shot it for two or three years. The used 458 was a much better idea, but I sold it.

Later I got the notion to build a 450 Marlin bolt action, and lucked into a Ruger SS MK II in 350 Rem Mag with a chopped barrel. I thought that would be perfect, so I had Pac Nor barrel it in 450 Marlin, and sent it to a gunsmith for final tweeking and feeding issues. I felt sure there would be no problem.

Short story is that it never did feed right, and I got rid of the action, but kept the barrel.

So I pondered this for some time, and last month I visited the gunsmith's shop, and had 9 dummy 458WM rounds with me - 3 each with 350 gr Hornady FN, 350 gr Speer, and 400 Speer bullets. The gunsmith had two of my donor Ruger MKII SS actions - in 300WM and 338WM. So we tried the feeding of the dummy rounds, and one action fed slightly better than the other, but both were near perfect. Even those flat nose Speers fed without a problem - full magazine.

Just for the heck of it, we tried some 450 Marlin ammo, and it didn't feed right. The noses would hit outside the chamber and jam. Just as I found with the short action, the more pointed bullets would feed Ok, but the blunt flat nose would jam. I don't want to be limited to pointy nose bullets, but I don't mind being limited to 405 gr bullets or lighter. Full power 400 gr swift loads are plenty of thump for my purposes.

The feeding differences comparing the 450 and 458 may seem illogical to you, but that's the way it is. Try it for yourself if you don't believe me. You can spend your money to find out the hard way what I learned, or you can learn from my mistakes. Your choice.

Anyway, I'm confident that I'm finally on the right track, and I'm going to have the barrel set back a little and the chamber reamed out to 458 WM. It's a stainless #5 PacNor, 20" twist, barrel length 20", and I have a Hogue stock with the full aluminum block inside. I'm also going with a short throat, which is not SAAMI, but I'll have the barrel marked accordingly, or not marked at all, and use handloads only. The problem with this is obvious - shooting factory 500 or 510 gr bullets may be dangerous, if they will chamber. I plan to never try it, and have no factory loads in inventory. This is a discussion I'll have with the gunsmith cutting the chamber before it's all done. It would be great with me if the throat will not allow the 500 gr + factory loads to chamber and close the bolt.

Hopefully that's a short version of a long story, but the point is I would recommend exactly what I'm building - a 458 WM on a Ruger SS action. The custom throat is an option which I'm comfortable with for my use, but I'm not comfortable in recommending it, so that's up to you. My thought is that if I'm not happy with it I can have it cut longer, but if it's already long, it will be tough to make it shorter.

I'm planning on handloads ranging from sub-sonic 350-405 gr jacketed bullets using Trailboss or SR 4759 powder, up to full blast loads with 400 gr Swifts or maybe the 350 gr Barnes TSX.

Incidentally, your question was re a 458, but I should say that if I didn't already have a 9.3x62, I would recommend getting that instead of the 458 for hunting elk and black bear as you described. I also think that using a Ruger SS action for that would be a good idea, if you want SS, and can't find one otherwise.

It's gonna be fun to have a 458 again. That's just it - the 458 I'm building is for fun, but it certainly doesn't trump the 9.3mm for just about anything I'll hunt in the rain forest of SE Alaska.

KB

9.3x64
Then rest just for FUN

quote:

I like the idea of a short 416 "somethingoranother". The BC of some of the various 416 (and 375 for that matter) bullets would make a huge difference if I need something for a little longer range.

Just to put in my 2 cents. How about a .416 wsm? It will shoot well out to 400 yards with 300 or 350 grain bullets. Will take anything on earth with 400 grainer's. CH4D has dies and there is a lot of .300 WSM cases out there. Cheap to shoot, easy to load and a great one gun fits all rilfe and I have the reamer, what's not to love?......Tom

I built a 458x2" on a MK X mauser short action and I love it. 20" barrel .650 at the muzzle.Easy to load as the block installed to shorten the action length means you drop the rounds straight in the loading port, no tucking them back needed. The bolt face had to be opened and a little tweaking done of course to feed right. I have a 1-4x redfield on it with it's figerglass stock, it's light and powerfull. No problems making a hit on deer size game at 200 yds, just learn the trajectory.
Reamer can be rented, I found used dies, but expect 450 marlin dies would work fine also. I'm happy with almost the exact rifle you want to build if that helps any.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I built a 458x2" on a MK X mauser short action. Easy to load as the block installed to shorten the action length means you drop the rounds straight in the loading port, no tucking them back needed. The bolt face had to be opened and a little tweaking done of course to feed right.

Were you able to get it to feed correctly? I'm talking about all three in the magazine, one continuous push of the bolt for each cartridge, with none of the cartridges jamming on the sides, all correctly feeding the rim under the extractor on the way in, and none popping up prematurely as the bolt is withdrawn. And does it feed equally well with pointed and blunt nose bullets?

KB

9.3x62 or 64 or a .375 shooting 270's. I own a .375 H&H and the ballistics with the 270 grain are about like a 30-06, but with more meat. I'm 155 and I shoot full house 300 grain loads all day long, so the 270 grain load is a piece of cake.

so far I havent found anything it wont feed. 300 grn barnes x bullets to 405 win flatnose all feed without a bobble.

You're crazy! I'm chiming in. Oregon coastal forest for Roosevelt Elk and Black Bear. You want short, big bullet, heavy. 45/70 fills the bill. Marlin lever action is the standard rig. 350 gr. Speer SP.

Leupold scope, 1.5x to 6x and about 30mm (I'd have to look). Heavy duplex so you can find it in the trees.

416 Ruger

quote:

Originally posted by theback40: I built a 458x2" on a MK X mauser short action. Easy to load as the block installed to shorten the action length means you drop the rounds straight in the loading port, no tucking them back needed. The bolt face had to be opened and a little tweaking done of course to feed right.

Were you able to get it to feed correctly? I'm talking about all three in the magazine, one continuous push of the bolt for each cartridge, with none of the cartridges jamming on the sides, all correctly feeding the rim under the extractor on the way in, and none popping up prematurely as the bolt is withdrawn. And does it feed equally well with pointed and blunt nose bullets?
KB

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
so far I havent found anything it wont feed. 300 grn barnes x bullets to 405 win flatnose all feed without a bobble.

That's great.

There are few things that aggrivate me more than a rifle that feeds badly. I have abandoned and sold off more parts, and sometimes complete (and expensive) rifles after declaring them failure in the feeding dept., than for poor accuracy or other problems. Usually this happens after a conversation with a gunsmith that goes something like - no problem, I can make it feed - and after paying for the attempt.

So, I have become skeptical about feeding when the discussion is about cartridges fed through actions not initially designed for the cartridge used. Also, it bewilders me a little because many have claimed success where I have experienced something different.

In several instances, I have seen rifles which the owner says feeds well, and when I tried it found that it fed poorly. The Siamese Mauser is a notorious example. I have seen several of these and the owner was actually surprised to see me demonstrate it jamming.

It's a sore spot for me, partially because it's a mystry, and I don't have a logical explanation other than the obvious, which is that some people don't actually know whether their rifle feeds well or not, or are willing to accept poor feeding as normal. All my rifles feed very - very well, or they are gone.

Other examples of feeding problems were AI cartridges in standard Mauser actions, magnum cartridges in std Mauser action (opened up of course), which are the subject of numerous success stories from others. The 450 Marlin in the Ruger short action was another bad one. I had a CRF Winchester 70 SA in stainless, in 308 that was a bugger. It would jam off the left side - pushing the tip into the extractor cutout, and one of the cartridges would pop out of the magazine as the bolt cleared on the back stroke. I sent it back to Winchester twice, and the third time they offered to buy it back at retail - sold - and I bought a stainless Ruger in 308 and didn't look back.

My best experience with feeding is with Rugers, a Winchester in 375 H&H, or 98 Mausers barreled in 8x57 . In fact, most of the rifles I've had, and now have are no problem, but a few were very bad. Now I try to check out an action and project carefully before putting a lot of money in it. Now I generally go with a cartridge/action combo that feeds well with no modifications or tweeking needed.

KB

well, one thing I attribute to my rifle feeding well is swapping out the follower to one that was made for the Ruger 350 mag, that and a little tweeking. I hear you on feeding issues, Siamese mausers for me also a real stinker.
Trying to get an opened up P14 to a big cartridge is good for some grey hair too!

Yea, glad to hear it's not just me. So many small things make a big difference. The Ruger 350 follower seems like a good idea. I know the gunsmith fitted some kind of follower into my Winchester 375, and the substitute follower was not Winchester. The edges were ground to fit the magazine box, and it is thinner than the factory follower, perhaps the spring too. Anyway it allows four down, without a drop box. It's the slickest feeding rifle I have ever worked.

KB

I have used a SAKO 375 H&H with a 20" barrel and currently use a Blaser R 93 with a 19 3/4" barrel.

I like the short barreled 375 H&H a lot.

It has good thump up close, and can make 300+ yard shots if necessary.

I got one. Excellent cartridge, lots of stoppingpower, easy to reload

I got mine built on a Remington 700 SPS WSM-action with a LW 18,5" barrel with 1-14" twist in the slimmest possible contour. Uses the original WSM-magazinebox and -follower, no problem at all. Capasity 3+1. No alternation had to be made to the action to make it feed properly. With original SPS stock (not the lightest) and red dot sight it weighs in empty at around 6,6 lb. It's a dream carrying around in steep difficult forrested terrain, light and short.

I use 450 Marlin dies to reload with, no problem at all. Picked that trick up on an earlier tread here on ARForum.
My preferred huntingbullet are Woodleigh 400grs PP, definetly no problem at all with feeding. V0 are approximately 2030fps. For training - Rem 405grs FN with V0 approx 2000fps. Both can be pushed hardere, but I find it sufficient as is. My primary games with this gun are red deer, moose and bear.

It's an excellent short cartridge capable of efficiently stopping all games less than a handful species in Africa. Definetly a very underrated and overlooked cartridge. It sits in the shadow of the 458 WinMag, which again sits in the shadow of the amazing 458 Lott. Both can be downloaded to American-level, but neither can be used in a short action.

My question is if you are using 45-70 bullets why not use the full 3" of magazine length?
trim the brass to 1.4" and shoot at lower preasure or tougher bullets faster?

I guess you can load the 45-70 bullets out longer but hey...