What is the smallest case necessary to achieve 2150 fps with a 500gr bullet from an 18" barrel?

Ima take a stab in the dark here but probally the 450 rigby or dakota

458B&M or 458AccRel. The later with ease.
Cheers...
Con

I would think that a 458 case would work trimed down some.

that might exclude the winmag, but most of the ones larger will make it .. and like Con said, BM or AR, as I am assuping you wouldn't want a long action to go with that short barrel.

2374 from a less than 21" barrel on the 458 AR ..

My choice would be the 458 AR for ease of achievement and beltless case or the 460 Van Horn(short 460 Weatherby) for a belted case...

Basically any 2.25" to 2.50" case with about 100 gr H2O capacity or more...RUM/RIGBY/LARGER BELTED MAG CASES... Lots of available wildcats in this catagory.

Some very nice 50 cals in there also.

Luck

I do have an M70 RUM laying around for a 404 that I could do a G&A on...

Why did you ask for the shortest case length if you have a RUM length action to play with??? Using a short case in a long action is one sure way to mess up the feeding possibly.

In your case I would go with the 450 Rigby or maybe the 450 Dakota...or ANY of the RUM based wildcats that are floating around...at least in that case the brass is plentiful and cheap.

And why whizz around with a 45 cal when you can just do a 500 Jeff or one of the newer wildcat 50 cals and gain bullet weight and diameter. You can always load down to 2150fs/500gr, but you have the much larger potential if you want it.

If you're thinking about a short barreled, fast handling stopping rifle, the 50 cal or larger cal would be my choice in a RUM action...can you say 600 OK?

Luck

Because a 450 rigby wont fit in a 375 lenght action 416 rigby will but your limited to only useing 400 grain bear claws and sledgehammers. Also the 500 jeff fits a standard action so the feeding problems you speak on for a shorter case will occur unless you put a block in the mag box...

but 2150 from a 2.5 case is possible with the 460 van horn/ 460 a-square short 460 weatherby cut back to 2.5 inches will hit 2450-2500 with a 26 inch bbl

of course proerply headstamped brass is made from unobtanium for those, and norma weatherby brass is what, 4 bucks a pop?

the REASON i designed the ARs to do what they do is to fit into standard length actions, from cheap brass, and tada.. headstamped brass is available from qualcart for less thant that

458 AR brass on midway
http://www.midwayusa.com/brows...*652***670***9013***

460 weatherby - with wrong headstamp -if that matters
http://www.midwayusa.com/brows...*652***670***9013***

of course, if you are willing to use the wrong headstamp, 375 rum is cheap!
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...uctNumber=1601110753

the 500ar, if you want a standard length 50, doesn't have the feeding issues of the 500 jeffery, fits in a standard action, and is generally 2+1 and bet the 500jeffe/500nitro loads in a 20" barrel

the 458 AR fits nicely in a winchester action, is at least 3+1, and you can load barnes bullets out LONG if you like ...

as i said, you can get 2350+ with a 500gr from a ~<21" barrel NO PROBLEM in the 458 AR ... 2150 would be trivial.

You can order headstamped brass from quality cart for either a-sqaure for the 460 if your serious about as project and serious about hunting I doubt cost of brass should be an issue

Brass cost is an issue to most reloaders that i know. 1.10 vs 4 means one can make more ammo, shoot more, practice more, and at lower cost. the best reason to get a .458 big bore is simply price of bullets. .458 bullets are generally CHEAPER than anything else .. for example, the 500gr ABC company bullet is more than likely cheaper than a .424 or .475 bullet, of correct weight, due to market demand.

EVERY reloader I know personally takes economics into account .. the "serious about" part is kind of funny .. if you are SERIOUS about shooting, you are shooting a bunch, and brass replacements, as it does eventually wear out, is a SERIOUS concern for anyone SERIOUS about reloading and shooting .. for someone that can only use factory ammo, well, they are more blessed than most of the people I know.

Your doubt is heard, but my experience with SERIOUS shooters is quite the opposite .. they want to shoot, and a BUNCH, to train with and have plenty of trigger time.

Of course, most people here publicly state that they like to get at LEAST 200 pieces of brass for a new rifle ..
that's $220 vs $800 .. that's a PILE of bullets, powder, primers, and trigger time different for 600 bucks .. in fact, that price difference is the difference between 200 pieces of brass ONLY or shooting that cheaper ammo what, 2 to 3 times?

Since its a reloading only kind of proposition, I defer to the lesser cost to shoot more ...

seriously ...

Valid point jeff and not argueing your point

no worries.. just saying most people are price shoppers, not value shoppers, expecially when they consider it a commodity.

Not sure why a 450 Rigby won't fit a 375 length action...my 510 Makatak(50 cal Rigby 0.050" shorter than the 500 Mbogo) works OK in a standard length Ruger action using 535gr cast lead slug, 3.28" COAL crimped in the crimping groove and case lengthn 2.85"...just have to seat the jacketed bullets a bit deeper, or find one with the crimp groove in the right place or put on one...BUT only 2 down.

It will fit my Savage 375 length mag with the bullet seated out.

Did I mis-read or mis-understand that "450 Rigby won't fit"?

Anytime you play with a wildcat there are always considerations AND mods to mess with... somewhere.

The AR series offers ALL the best parts of wildcatting without all the attendent hassles...If I didn't like wildcatting or have been doing it for so long, I would just pick any one of the larger cal AR's and never look back.

Luck

Let me rephrase that it can be made to fit if you cut the heck out of the action in some cases it will fire but is it a good idea not at all theres a reason they put the rigby on acouple of standard actions because its all they had at the time do we need to do it now not at all is it wise to do it not at all will the action gernade and blow up not likely but if doing so id advise to stick to spec and not hot rod the round

I guess I'm dense...I didn't have to do anything chamber the barrel, screw it on, polish up the ramp a bit and open up the bolt face.

There was NO hotrodding, chopping, channeling, louvering etc of this rig...there is NO need to jack this round up as it will do just right at ~2400fs/50KCUP and not strain the boiler a bit...the cartridge is actually a little long for this receiver, but it is a prime example of picking a bullet and a case, then matching it to a particular receiver and making it work WITHOUT going nutz in any manor shape or form.

It would be nice to have more than 2 down, some nice extra round bottom metal and I'm working on that project right now....but if I can't take care of what I'm aiming at with 3 rounds, maybe I shouldn't be messing with it in the first place.

I asked about a small case because I don't need more recoil than it takes. I'm thinking 458AR more and more, but for that I could get a smaller action. I would think that anything with a Rigby case head is bigger than I would put in a Winchester.

quote:

The AR series offers ALL the best parts of wildcatting without all the attendent hassles...If I didn't like wildcatting or have been doing it for so long, I would just pick any one of the larger cal AR's and never look back.

Well said

FOOBAR,
M77 in what chambering????

Single stack feed?
Cheers...
Con

510 Makatak...0.510", Rigby case shortened 0.050", shoulder pushed back the same amount, blown out to 0.575" at 2.300" from base, as much as possible to keep a nice taper to the case for easy extraction...basically nothing more than a 50 cal Rigby AI...nothing really wild or wooly or exotic...to get all the case capacity possible and within reason...to keep pressures down and velo as high as possible...WITHOUT PUSHING ANYTHING.

This was NOT an excursion into envelope pushing in ANY form. Been there,done that...it's lost it's luster by this late date.

The fireformed Hornady brass shortens to 2.85" from 2.90" OEM...I guessed(educated from experience) that would happen so why not just go with it. I pushed the shoulder back just to keep a 1/2" neck lengh. I ran all the parameters through a cartridge design program and all the numbers to compare the results...much easier today than way in the past doing it the "hard" way...pencil, paper, drawing board and old timey punch calculators.

Do a search...I posted all the information and reasons on this BigBore forum several times. Might give you a better look into my psyche...

Not quite single stack...If I had used the Gibbs case as I thought about first, it would have been. As is the rounds stack offset slightly over 3/8"...almost enough room for 3 down, but not quite...need a "Pregnant Flapper"...either a whole new piece of bottom metal or just a 1/2" extension. Working on a design that won't be hard to make...KISS and CHEAP are my mottos.

I wouldn't recomment doing "MY" cartridge in this M77 receiver...it isn't a CRF receiver and the cartridge is more of a DG size round...this case size begs a 3.60" or larger mag...I had the receiver waiting for a barrel and I built it as nothing more than a project rifle, I wanted a 50 cal "something" and I wanted my own named cartridge since I first got into this game.

I could/can cut the chamber 0.050" longer and have a 500 Mbogo basically, but RIP got there first so to speak and I designed this around the Cast Perf 525 gr cast lead bullet as all the parameters just seemed to fall into place. The Woodleigh works just as well. Just enough room in the mag to crimp the CP bullet in the OEM crimp groove, hardly any loss in case capacity, the bullet base sits right at 2.200" from the base, just below the neck/shoulder junction.

This is a very LARGE bullet carrier for all but the biggest beasty's, basically the WRONG action for it's caliber and actual intended victims, but I like big heavy bullets as I can eat right up to the hole...not a lot of meat loss and the animals go down like Thor's Hammer hit them.

This round has one thing that most people don't want anything to do with...heavy recoil...about 85ftlbs with the 525gr/2400/11 lb rifle(a lttle less with the muzzle brake) another reason to recommend a WHOLE lot of the other cartridges over this one, but 6800ftlb of ME/5000 ftlbs at 100M is something to contemplate.

As I said before for the most part and realistically speaking for 99% of all game in the world the AR OR the AHR series are so much easier to, deal with on ALL fronts I would pick one of those in a NY heartbeat if I had a standard length CRF DGR receiver and wanted to go the quick and easy route. For a magnum action I would pick a "massaged" 505 or 510 Gibbs for the same reasons...there are even larger cases, blown out versions that make more "thump", but with all the "attendent" monky motion to go along...I just like to KISS it off...when it comes to my toys and projects.

Yeah, Boomy...I get a bit cranky now and then and like to "do my own thing", but I've always appreciated good things no matter what. There are quite a few very astute men on this forum producing many very good ideas and goodies...whether or not I agree with some of the antics, we should ALL agree to agree or disagree with good mannors. My bad when I get sidways now and then.... Sorry.... hahahahahahah

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:
I asked about a small case because I don't need more recoil than it takes. I'm thinking 458AR more and more, but for that I could get a smaller action. I would think that anything with a Rigby case head is bigger than I would put in a Winchester.

RyanB

The 458 B&M is specifically exactly what you are looking for, small case 2.25 inches, 18 inch barrels 2150 fps with 500s. But it lives on a Winchester M70 WSM action! Not a good choice for the action you have, which has many modifications from Winchester to work with the RUM case.

A lot of suggestions have been made for the much larger cases, there are serious issues with this, retaining in the magazine is one of the most important with the larger cartridges and case heads, next is the bolt faces would have to be altered on these guns too.

You have an excellent choice for that rifle with the 458 AR. No bolt face work, retaining cartridges with 3 down will be a snap, if anything at all has to be done it will be very minor. Getting 2150 with any 500 gr bullet will also be easy, and that case has the length for the 500 gr Barnes Banded, and most other mono solids. The 458 AR in this rifle is your #1 choice.

Michael

Michael,

Good to hear from you…Are you back home from Disney World or were you having AR withdrawals and just had to check-in?

I didn't know B&M was that potent. I think I will switch actions out and go with that.

Hey Jim and Ryan

No, I am still down at Disney until Monday. Just have the laptop and check in sometimes in the morning. Still have some work I have to do, but hate to leave all my AR buddies hi and dry! Also serves my addiction to big bores while searching the place for Mickey Mouse!

Oh boy, I get to go to a water park today! Can hardly wait!

Ryan, Like everything in life the B&M has big advantages and some short comings too. It's the same capacity as 458 Win mag and can do what a Win mag can do except in a smaller package. I have no problem getting 500 Hornady, Woodleigh and such bullets to 2150 fps. The Barnes Banded is too long, and can't get it past around 2050 because it takes up so much case capacity. Also like the Win Mag I think it is far better served with 450 gr bullets, Swift, and Barnes banded both go into the low 2200 fps range with 18 inch barrels. One can do anything with 458 caliber 450 gr bullets. I have taken several buffalo with that combo.

It's a small package with lot's of great options. Go to the B&M thread and poke around. Or send me a PM and I can get you all the load data on it. If you are serious about trading that RUM action of yours, I have several different WSM rifles/actions and always a need for the RUM action for 500 MDM rifles, I will sort something out with you on that. Brass, dies, load data, pressure data, everything is available for the B&M series, and it was designed for short rifles, barrels, and exactly what you are talking about. But like I said a few disadvantages with some bullets like the 500 gr Barnes Banded. But drop right down to a 450 and you are good to go.

Michael

Michael does anyone make bottom metal that allows four down in a B&M?

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:
Michael does anyone make bottom metal that allows four down in a B&M?

Ryan…Michael is an East Coast guy so he’s likely tucked away for the night at the moment.

Michael and I have discussed the drop magazine vis-à-vis standard depth magazine relating to his B&M and MDM cartridges and it is his belief that he does not need the extra one cartridge that a drop magazine would provide.

I am a M98 Mauser aficionado and like both standard depth and drop magazines on that action…Though after having fired one of Michael’s M70s in 416 B&M a few weeks ago, from up close out to 325-yards, I’m beginning to lean towards Michael’s position that one in the tube and three-down are sufficient for most situations and it is very easy to feed a few more rounds into the magazine should they be required.

But back to your question, I’m unaware of anyone who currently manufactures a four-down magazine for the M70 WSM action. You might contact Sound Metal Products or Sunny Hill Enterprises to determine if they have them available or if they’re planning to manufacture such an animal.

I think I might just live with three down. I'm reading the B&M thread right now and liking what I see. How do they work with NF FN solids? What does SSK charge for a build btw? I've heard their prices can be very high.

Ryan

I have not run enough North Forks through the guns to know for sure how they are going to feed in the Winchesters. I have run hundreds on top of hundreds of Barnes Banded with zero issues ever. I will load some dummies in the North Forks and check them. There have been no issues with the test loads, but that is not enough to make a judgement.

Actually I happen to think that SSK is extremely reasonable for what you get. Better priced than anyone I have ever worked with in the past, and the quality is excellent. From the folks I have worked with they are about 1/2 of the price, and I get far more for my money than I used to get.



Michael

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:
Michael does anyone make bottom metal that allows four down in a B&M?

Ryan I missed this, sorry. No I am not aware of 4 down bottom metal for a WSM, but I have never looked either.
Pretty much what Jim says.

I am also sending Boomy two 458 B&Ms probably sometime this week, he is going to have them at his West Coast Shoot and hoot for everyone to shoot and play with. Jim, better make boomy save a few rounds for you! Don't know where you are Ryan, but you could get a hands on there.

Michael

LOL...Michael I've already let Boomy know that I just might be able to make the Hoot & Shoot on the 26th. Right now it looks like we may be back by the 19th so it's looking promising!

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:
What is the smallest case necessary to achieve 2150 fps with a 500gr bullet from an 18" barrel?

I'm curious why you would want an 18" barrel for such a cartridge. I've never had a problem in brush with a 22" barrel and less blast, etc. With 22" it's easy to get 2150 fps.

Because if it was shorter I couldn't take it to Canada.

Indy

Really until you have compared a 458 B&M at 18 inches direct to a 458 Winchester at 22-24 inches you are really hanging around in the dark. There is no more muzzle blast in an 18 inch 458 B&M than a 24 inch 458 Winchester. None that I can tell or see.

And you can take this to the bank, an 18 inch 458 B&M handles like a dream, and your 22 inch 458 Winchester handles like a bus in comparison, I have both and have done both in the field.

Correct Ryan, 18 inches to Canada, for the ignorant in government service you might go 18 1/4 just to be sure. I was in Canada in April with an 18 inch 416 B&M, they never even looked at the rifle or opened the gun case, but that does not mean what the next customs agent might do.

Michael