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I would like to put together a new rifle bigger than my .416 Rigby. Been toying with the idea of a .450 Rigby or a .470 Mbogo for some time now. I like both cartridges well enough and could see myself going in either direction. At the moment I am not really sure which one I should choose.... If you were going to pick one over the other which would it be and more importanty 'why' would you choose that particulary round...? Looking forward to hearing your thoughts... Best Regards, Dave | ||
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Do you reload? How long do you want to wait for a rifle? CZ Custom shop does the 450 Rigby. Who would make the rifle? How much is cost a factor or possible budget? Are you keeping your 416? From 416 I would as big as possible including the 500 Mbogo or 500 Accrel. Of the choice is between the two I would go 470 Mbogo If room for variation a 500 Accrel or Mbogo. An unimproved 450 or 470-416 would have less feed work from a 416 Rigby donor. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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.470 Mbogo. It makes a larger hole in whatever you shoot with it. It also has an AR connection, as it was developed by one of our own Members. George | |||
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I have built 2 .470 mbogos and it's a great cartridge. Bigger is always better! I'd take it over a .450 snyday. it really clobbers things and it's easy to shoot well.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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- Yes I reload. - I have a good local gunsmith who is pretty darn quick so the wait is mostly for parts. - I will use a cz55o, cut rifled barrel, wiebe bottom metal, QD rings, leupold 1.5x5, R.Vardy walnut... - Hell yes I am keeping my .416! He who dies with the most rifles wins! I do like the .470mbogo a lot! A few years back I spoke to Dave E. about it and it is an impressive round. Tough to come to a decision on this one. My fence sitting procrastination has to end so I can at the very least place an order for a barrel and get this ball rolling. What other thoughts do you folks have...? Best, Dave | |||
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450 Dakota is an ass kicker. So accurate you would have to see it to believe it. To compliment a .416 you really need something that starts with a 5. Blake | |||
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470 Mbogo opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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BOTH SSR | |||
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David: I have a 450 Dakota that was built by AHR. I built the Dakota version because, at the time, Dakota brass was readily available and 450 Dakota brass was really scarce. I love the cartridge but if I had to do it again, I would probably go with the Rigby version just because of the Rigby name but the two cartridges are virtually the same. I guess that I am partial to the .458 because there is an endless supply of .458 bullets. My favorite load is a 450 TSX that runs right at 2400 fps. I honestly doubt that there is much difference in the lethality of the 450 Dakota/Rigby and the Mbogo. Boomie makes a good point about the 500 AccRel. Also a very well though out cartridge. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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.450 Rigby. Factory round, fully specification-ized and loaded by Kynoch and Norma (great in a pinch). The .470 Mbogo is a wildcat and is not big enough bigger to make me want to sacrifice the .450 Rigby simplicity factor for it. For me, the next stop up the ladder from any .458 is a fifty, and more particularly, the .500 A-Square. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Second what George and Rob said...470 Mbogo if that is your limit, 500 Mbogo if you can go larger. Respects, Phill | |||
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If you have decided a long action like the CZ 550 Mag then I would seriously consider a 500 (Mbogo / A-square/ AHR) to complement a 416 rifle.. | |||
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David C, I wrestled with similar thoughts last year. I too had, and have, 416Rigbys that I thoroughly enjoy. The 450 Rigby definitely had my attention because it could be made by rechambering a 458 Win/Lott and opening the bolt and feed rails. Or simply rebarreling a 416 Rigby. The 470 Mbogo used the Rigby case, a real plus, and provided even more power. And it, too, would be a relatively simple rebarrel of a 416, but with less bullet choices. And following that logic one moves up to the 500 Mbogo, a truly great case. Both of these latter options have headstamped brass available so they are relatively tame wildcats. And I only like to shoot my own ammunition, so I'm not so bothered by 'what if the ammo doesn't arrive?'. Well, then I would have to 'borrow' my own 416. However, I also asked some realistic questions about the gun-to-be. Did I want it heavier and as long? Or shorter and maybe lighter than my 416Rigby? More importantly, did I plan on using the cavernous capacity of the Rigby case? Remember the 450 Rigby is basically a 460 Weatherby without a belt. If I built a 470 Mbogo I would be asking for MORE power and recoil than the 460 Weatherby. And the same is true for a 500 Mbogo. They come into their own when loaded near capacity, and that would mean 8000+ ftlbs for a 470 Mbogo or 500 Mbogo. I decided that I would like to try a rifle that was lighter than my Rigby, even if only a pound. that meant that I would not plan on utilizing the full capacity of a 500 Mbogo at 8000+ ftlbs. So I went for a 500AccRel, which is basically a 500Mbogo with 1/4inch case-length taken off. Bullet selection is adequate, from CEB Raptors and GSC light epandables to standard weights. My intended usage will be around the 6500 ftlb level. The gun is currently being built around a Ruger Hawkeye Alaskan, including the Hogue stock. That is a very inexpensive option, as options go. I'm guessing that it will weigh somewhere between 9-10 lbs, scoped. Hopefully closer to 9lb. It should work out fine, whatever. I will lengthen the trigger-pull from the Ruger-Hogue factory up to 14" or just over. It will make a .510"+ hole, and 6500 ftlbs leaves me standing on my feet comfortably (contra the 577TRex folk in the famous video). I can probably go 7000 ftlbs if I want to, without pressure problems. I will wait and see where the accuracy nodes are. As others have stated or implied, the fact that you already have a 416 Rigby, means that something over 458 might make a more desirable or justifiable difference. Of course, since you already have the CZ action then I might opt for 'easy' and more bullet opportunities: the 450 Rigby would be easy, 470 Mbogo a nice compromise, or 500 Mbogo, with more bullets and umph than the 470. PS: I would get a scope with longer eye-relief. E.g., Bushnell 1.25-8 Elite 6500, a 30mm tube, has 6" eye-relief. A more practical option, and rugged, that I like is the Nikon Slughunter with 5" eyerelief throughout. Myself, I will end up with a 50-cal 'short Rigby'. 2.65" case that fits in a standard Ruger action, topped with a Slughunter 1.65-5power. That's what I would like to be carrying in the African sun, if not carrying my CZ550 416Rigby. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I reviewed my notes and both of the .470 Mbogos (one on a 1917 Enfield/P14 bolt combo and the other on a CZ550 went together easily. The 1917 Enfoield project was a bear and I don't recommend it, but the CZ550 was easy in comparison. I bought a reamer and Guages from JGS made to Dave's specs. The 470Mbogo on the CZ550 required very little to get it to feed properly with only ramp and minor mag box fitting required. With 500gr machined brass solids, mine would easily do 2780fps and MOA groups were the norm. With Bore riders, you could probably get another 150fps at the same pressures. Thats a smokin round. The 500 Mbogo seems like a good idea, but I have no direct experience with it.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Go Big or Go Fast. 500 Jeffery Class or 460 Weatherby. Here's why. I own quite a few Big Bores and I feel that the 416 is an EXTREMELY versitile rifle/round. If you really want a Big Bigbore go with your Favorite 50 (505, 500 Jeff, 500A2...) If you want fast go with a 460 Weatherby. I too was sold on the 450 Rigby and still might some day play with one But I can load my 460 Hot and not worry in fact someone was loading there rifle at 81k PSI according to my Quick Loads and still not having problems. If you are just wanting something with a little more push then by all means get a 450 Rigby but if you really want a Step up then think about a 500 or 460. Your Choice Have Fun. Brad | |||
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And you can load the 450Rigby up to 460Weatherby levels if your rifle is up to it, capacity is functionally equivalent. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Agreed you can load a 450 Rigby as Hot as you want but God Forbid you shoot factory 460 Ammo in a weak old 450. Just a thought. Brad | |||
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The 450 Rigby is a new cartridge, 1995, so there are not too many 'old' rifles running around. And CZ550 magnum actions are big and strong. However, I don't think that the 460Weath will fit in a 458R. The Weatherby is about .02" wider at the shoulder and its wearing a belt at the casehead. The opposite danger exists, though. I don't know what would happen if the lands or headspace were to hold the case against the boltface and striker, you might find an interesting new wildcat case as the outcome, or a separate casehead. Makesure you're wearing glasses on this one. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I knew you guys were going to bring the .50 cals into this discussion! The biggest rifle I have played with is the .416 Rigby so I was thinking about a step up....in increments. The .500 AHR looks like a really great cartridge. As I understand it Duane Wiebe has some new bottom metal for the .500 Jeff which holds 4 down w/o needing a longer trigger unit. Might work for the .500 AHR with some mods...? The .500 A2 looks like another good option... back to the .450 & .470.... From what I understand both the 450 Rigby & 470 Mbogo look to be a pretty easy conversion for the cz55o action. Easy is part of the deal for me as 5k actions and or lengthy $$$ conversions of enfields & the like are not an option. Rob, those velocities for the .470 are smokin. Personally, I was thinking about playing in the +/- 2400 fps range. 2800 - 2900 plus.... WOW 416Tanzan, I hear what you are saying with regard to eye relief. It is an issue for me as I have on occasion crawled the stocks of a couple rifles. Haven't paid a price for it yet and sure as hell don't want too! I am not wedded to any one scope at the moment. On thing I do insist upon is a small & low mounted scope with a 1" tube. I really hate scopes that sit up high & weight a ton. Eye relief is certainly a concern. One of the advantages I think the .450 & .470 have over the .50 cals in number of bullet options & cost. None of this is cheap but the 50s are spendy... What to do.... Best, Dave | |||
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Do you see many PH's using these type cartridges? Higher velocity (Say +2300 FPS) larger caliber (+45) with heavy projectiles? A category above a 458 Lott or 500 NE? | |||
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eezridr, Hard to say. From what I know PHs often have a hard time getting ammo & components for their rifles. I would think many of them use rifles & calibers that may not be their first choice but rather what is available & affordable at the time..... As far as higher velocity cartridges go Ernst Shults of TGTS uses a custom built rifle in .460 Weatherby. Best, Dave | |||
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Exactly. That's why I switched to Nikon after 30 years of Leupolds. I've been using a light, compact 2-8 Nikon Monarch on my 416's. But now that I'm building a 500 I want more eyerelief than 4.0"-3.8". The Nikon Slughunter (designed strong for 500 grain shotgun slug recoil) is great with 5" and has 92% light transmission. I've picked up two. IN fact, I plan to put one on one of our 416's this fall. And Michael who's been busting up Leupolds over on terminals has been putting these Nikons through some heavy shooting and everything holding together.
That's what 450 Rigbys, Mbogos and 500 AccRel's are, a notch above the Lott. If someone has a Lott, then maybe it's not such a big step as needing a new rifle, but if building a rifle, then 450Rigby, 470Mbogo, 500Mbogo (preferred over the A2 belted case and bulkier Jeffrey) are a nice platform. If I were building off of a CZ550 I would go with the 500Mbogo. When you want 'flat' use your 416 Rigby. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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No such animal. There are no OLD 450 right rimless the round was invented as such in 1996 opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I would go with the 450 Rigby....however I am biased, as I have one. 500 grain bullet at 2400fps will kill anything that walks on this planet.....the 450 Rigby does this without breaking a sweat there are MORE options in the .458 caliber bullets, plus they are cheaper it isn't a wildcat the cartridge feeds really well, plus no belt it has the case capacity to handle the 550gr and 600gr bullets can build a rifle that holds 4 down | |||
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Yes, it will kill, but 2500-2550 fps will do a little better, PLUS is will make better use of all of that capacity. And it's still relatively soft in comparison to the similar capacity Weatherby at 2700 Why build a Rigby and load it down to an 458 AccR? +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I haave some experience with a 450 Rigby as a friend had one. I have a 450 Dakota on a BRNO 602 action(was a 416 Rigby). The Rigby was the easiest shooting "Dangerous Game" round I ever shot. It was incredably accurate and very nice to use. The Dakota is just as accurate but mine kicks a bit more than the Rigby-stock design? I can handload from 92 to 102 gr of IMR 4064 and all shoot to the same point of aim. I have a 416 Rigby and 416 Rem as well as a 458 Lott and 458 Win. The Dakota will stay when the others are gone. Your milage may vary. Anything Worth Doing Is Worth Overdoing. | |||
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I just wanted to correct an earlier statement I made regarding the 450 Rigby. I am aware that this is a new creation of late However, my concern is more along the lines of someone trying to hot rod an older gun that may have been something else and firing 460 class loads in it. Agreed a nice new gun built with modern steel should handle a hot 450/460 just fine. However, in my bigbore searches on GB I occasionally run across conversions that look a little risky at best. CZ guns are plenty strong from what I hear. Finally ask yourself the honest question just how many rounds do I plan on shooting in a month. I would suggest that a 50 gun isn't all that much more expensive to feed than a .458. Also if you cast your own 50 cal bullets you can still get good practice round pretty cheap. A 416 Rigby is such a GREAT bigbore that its a shame not to go all out ifyou really want something more. Hence one gun over .375 then maybe a .458 (450 Rigby / 460 Weatherby). But 2 guns keep the 416 and get a 50. Brad | |||
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MHC_TX The .450 Rigby Duane built you is a real beauty! All the point you mentioned are certainly valid. One of the things I like most about the .450 is the ability to easily handle heavier bullets. As you mentioned the Rigby up to 600grs and I am sure the Mbogo could go quite a bit higher.....if there were heavier bullets available. I do like the fact that both of these rounds are built off the 416 Rigby brass. 4 down in the mag is no problem. You guys just have to keep mentioning a .50 huh..... I still can't decide. Best, Dave | |||
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There's a 500 Jeffery built on a 375/416 RSM 50 ... 50 ... Your getting sleepy and want a 50 Brad | |||
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When you wake up, you will not be satisfied until you have a 50, 577 and 600. Remember Big bores start at 1/2" 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I have A Lot of experience with the 500a2 and CZ rifles and it's a great choice. Just run a .50 expanded into a .460wby case and load a 535-750 gr bullet with a stiff load and out pops a perfect .500a2 case. It's even easier than the .470 mbogo to get to work and feed flawlessly on a CZ 550. In Aftica I used one on buff and the effect was Startling! The .500a2 is even more gun than the .470 Mbogo and easy to live with. I throated mine to shoot 750 gr Amaxs and had a ball with it.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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470 Mbogo, but I'm partial since I own one of the guns that Dave E built. Hard to beat a 500 gr bullet at 2650 fps. If you have that much to fight for, then you should be fighting. The sentiment that modern day ordinary Canadians do not need firearms for protection is pleasant but unrealistic. To discourage responsible deserving Canadians from possessing firearms for lawful self-defence and other legitimate purposes is to risk sacrificing them at the altar of political correctness." - Alberta Provincial Court Judge Demetrick | |||
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Ditto!! | |||
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Whatever the 470 Mbogo will do, so will the 500 Mbogo. But you still have to try to hit the right spot: Dropped off both 500 Mbogo No.1 above, and 500 Mbogo No.2, at Hilltop Gun Shop today for some work. Rifle No.1 is getting a Timney trigger and a reinforcement of the magazine box front. Rifle No. 2 is getting the same. I am also adding a Wisner coffin floor plate to Rifle No.1, obtained from member G. Hansen, but it could be switched between the two. The CZ magazine box was batterred a bit, getting dents in the front. Anybody with a bigbore CZ needs to better their magazine box before it gets battered and causes a problem in the field. Also, I am of the opinion that the ribbed .375 H&H box, that CZ puts in their rifles chambered for .416 Rigby, needs to be switched to the non-ribbed box made by CZ, as used in their .458 WinMags. Or get all new bottom metal built like Duane Wiebe does them. 500 Mbogo No.2, weighs 9.5 lbs as shown below, with 23" barrel. If it ever cracks this stock, I'll replace it with a CZ Kevlar stock. Take your pick: 570 grainers at +2500 fps, or at 2150 fps to imitate old fashioned 500 NE ballistics. Also 450-grainers at 2826 fps (115 grains of Benchmark), or 450-grainers at 2654 fps (105 grains of Benchmark). Nice load, that last one, being gentle on my shoulder, and hard on a buffalo shoulder. | |||
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I laughed at that buff pic. I love the 50's. WOODY Everyone is allowed an opinion, even if its wrong. | |||
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Me, too. I sent it to my son as a good reason for a 500AccR. That buff was hit HARD.
Excellent advice for two bigbores, and I'm following it myself. We have loved our 416Rigby's, so the step up is a 500. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Glad to amuse. That is a screen shot from Saeed's 2010 video. That is the impact of the .510/450-grain GSC HV which left the muzzle at 2654 fps. On the buffalo's shoulder and through the heart. My favorite buffalo ballistics. Yep, the 500 AccRel will do the same, and require no fillers. So will the 49-bore/.500-caliber/.338 Lapua Magnum of 2010, aka 49-10, aka 12.7x68mm "Tornado" Magnum. That reminds me of my next shooting assignment: 49-10. Good therapy, keeps the shoulder fit. Heh, heh, heh ... | |||
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