I'm looking at a CZ .416 Rigby to use for a donor, to build a .458 cal rifle, I know CZ chambers for the Rigby but I'm not intrested.
What I would like opinions on is the balistics and inherient properties of each.
Thanks
DR B

Dr B,
from a VERY pragmatic point of view, the only 3 differences between a 450 rigby and a 460 weatherby are
1: belt
2: pressure
3: stupid shoulders

quote:

jeffeosso

from a VERY pragmatic point of view, the only 3 differences between a 450 rigby and a 460 weatherby are
1: belt
2: pressure
3: stupid shoulders

jeff
Can the 450 Rigby be loaded to the same pressure and velocith as the 460 wby, that is with modren brass like NORMA.
I know many people think the shoulders are stupid but do they hurt anything or are they just diffrent.

Thanks
DR B

DR B,
the 450 rigby is "kind of funny" to me...
here's the brief history...

416 rigby...
30 years later roy puts a belt on it, weird shoulder, necks to 45
458 Weatherby

40 years later, the "John Rigby and Co" (a california company) turns the belt off and puts a normal shoulder on
450 rigby (1995)

the weatherby is nominal 500gr at 2500 (used to be 2600, btw)

the 450 rigby is 500 at 2300...

far lower pressure and recoil.

In fact, with ALL softpoint .458 bullets, a 2500 fps impact (close range) will destroy the bullet.

So, I would propose that the 450 rigby, at 2300, is all of the "good" of a big case, and you should be able to load on up.

After all, Norma makes bother cases, on the same equipement, and the same basic cases (at least jamison does) and they only difference is the belt and shoulder on the cases . from a macro perspective.

Since the CZ is probably too light weight for a shooter to enjoy 500gr at 2500, I believe that hte 450 rigby is the best compromise.. and load it up if you need to, but cases will last far longer at 2300

jeffe

Actually, the 460 used to be loaded to 2700 fps with factory Hornady rounds and since been dowloaded to 2600 with no pressure issues. The ONLY advantage of the Rigby is greater magazine capacity but a good riflemaker like Hein can fix that. 460 Weatherby brass is half the cost of the 450 Rigby, but I suspect if the cartridge gains in popularity, the price will go down somewhat. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Actually, the 460 used to be loaded to 2700 fps with factory Hornady rounds and since been dowloaded to 2600 with no pressure issues. The ONLY advantage of the Rigby is greater magazine capacity but a good riflemaker like Hein can fix that. 460 Weatherby brass is half the cost of the 450 Rigby, but I suspect if the cartridge gains in popularity, the price will go down somewhat. jorge

Well, you can always do what we used to do for .416 brass, buy the weatherby brass, turn the belts off and resize. Then if you are hung up on head stamps, buy a few of the proper stamped 450 Rigbys to hunt with and save money that way. Gives one something to do in his spare time as well.

jamison 416 rigby basic (un formed) is about a buck each... whatever headstamp you want... 1/2 the price of weatherby

jorge is right, weatherby loads to 2600 ... but i SERIOUSLY question the "no pressure issues" ..

65k is 65k.. and that's too much for me

Dr. B
PH Karl Stumpfe wrote in Magnum about the 450 Rigby Rimless.. www.Huntingsafaris.net.. Click on HERE..
AK

Jeff: I've shot the 460 quite a few times (ouch) back in Miami when I was growing up with the temps in the 90s. All factory loads and never any pressure issues that I could see anyway and in those days, they were right up there @ 2700. jorge

Jorge,
WOW! my hat is off to you... i, personally, don't load as hot as factory 270, and the weahterby scared me a bit on pressure and bolt thrust.

good on ya

Dr B,

I have owned all three: one of the two 450 Buhmillers John built for Weatherby to test on, a 460 Wby, and a Vickers
(local guy) 450 Rigby, based on necking the 416R up to 458 with no other changes. IMHO, having loaded over 400 rounds for each:

1. the Wby is the most problematic to reload, due to the goofy shoulder. Roy Wby finally came clean in the
1990's and admitted that the primary advantage of the double radius shoulder was to make it the most
difficult for a gunsmith to make a reamer to chamber and make dies off of from prints or samples.
No one I know has had much luck with trying to match factory velocities.
2. the 450 Rigby is the easiest to deal with. A phonecall can set you up on Marc Jamison's next run of
unheadstamped 416R cylindrical brass for 200 cases. Buy one box of 450 Rigby brass for Africa, or just
have your local jeweler engrave 450 Rigby on each base for you. If you want P-O-W-E-R!!!! for DG, just
load 550-600gr softs and solids at 2400fps. You can shoot an elephant in the ass enough to make his eye
balls bug out like a pekinese!
3. A CZ 550 Safari Magnum in 416 is just a barrel or boring bar/rifling machine away from being a 450 Rigby.
Jeffe can give you a pretty good estimate of the cost either way. The CZ may be a little light as a 450R,
but a mercury recoil reducer in the butt will add a pound and cut recoil quite a bit. I just grabbed the
new one I have and put it on the scale...9lbs on our house scale. Put a compact Leupold on it and the
recoil reducer in the butt and it will weigh about 11.5 lbs loaded. That would be about right, even with a
good sling you are under 12lbs.

That is my opinion, and just that. Free advice is worth what you pay for it as a rule, but I think this is one solution even Jeffe and 500 Grains can agree on.

regards,

Rich
DRSS

PS: check your PM here

Rich says:

"You can shoot an elephant in the ass enough to make his eye
balls bug out like a pekinese!"

LMAO....That was a good one Rich!

I've got a CZ in .460 Weatherby, PM with details sent to you.

My 450 Rigby weighs in at 10.5 lbs with 2 Mercury Reducers.. It will tip well over 11 when it's loaded.. The CZ Slicker made a well balanced Rifle.. Heavy but Balanced..
AK

No need to part out a rifle. I just saw several CZ Safaris at SCI in 450 Rigby. Very reasonably priced.

one buys a 416 rigby...
send to dubell or pedersen

waits awhile

gets a finely recut barrel...

and should one cut everything down to 23", add a tally barrel sling mount, and recut the cz front sight for necg inserts, all the better.

jeffe

jeffe
I have talked to Pederson, but I don't know who dubell is do you have any contact info.
Thanks
DR B

Hi Dr.B
Have you considered a 470 Mbogo if your gong to all the trouble of a barrel re-bore or replacement barrel. You can get headstamped brass and have a hard hitting cartridge to boot. Just read through my website for interest sake.

H Jeff,
I'm just sitting in a bar in Cape Town at the moment. Hope you guys are all doing well.
Take care,
Dave

Jim Dubell, he's a member here.

i've been waiting a long time to say this...

450 rigby adn 460 webby...

just the same, only different

OK here is another idea

In 1995 when Rigby under management of Paul Roberts in LONDON came out with the 450 Rigby, the originals were just too expensive for South Africans, I phoned Rigby and spoke them about their PH model, they were absolutely the best, Paul send me a mail in three days witht the dimensioons of their PH Rifle, and the advice was

Buy a Standard grade ZZK 602 in 458WM ream it out too 450 Rigby, and cut the barrel too 23 inches, rifle bolt was jewlled and the sillly hole in the bolt closed up, total cost at that stage of new rifle and cahnges USD 800 , so we had the perfect dg cartridge , low in pressure, in a fairly cheap conversion

the first one done was PH Dave Tennent, then myseld and Jean Louis Viljoen and the first set of dies ordered from rcbs was us as well.

Since then this cartrdige popularity has jumped a lot with other PH'S and now we have a score of them, Jim van Rensburg in Botswana has one and a couple odf others I know personally as well

Of the two I prefer the .450 Rigby and I reckon thats what Hornady/Ruger should have legitimised rather than the lott seeing as Ruger already have a nice .416 Rigby !!

take the 416 rigby and neck up to 458 no changes and trim at 2.85" for a perfect cal length neck and rechamber a 458 win mag and switch bolts or trim 450 rigby to the same 2.85"...no need for the longer action, just a shorter neck.