I would like to build a big bore i was thinking a 458 WIN Mag and was wondering if a first timer might not like that ....I have shot my 500 S&W mag rifle it is 6.5lbs and have been shooting 370gr hard cast rounds around 2300 and some 325-350gr HPs around 2400-2500 so not sure where that lies in the Recoil range compaerd to a 458 Win Mag but was thinking a remington 700 action and 24-26" barrle and having iron sights and a VX-3 1.5-5 on it have no real use in MN for it but would like to try and bild one....

Contrary to the info you will probably soon get here, the 458 Win is a great round, easily and cheaply available and a classic.
In addition it can be loaded down and makes a fine round for anything from deer on up.

I have have seen Winchester brass 50 pices going for $35.99 so figerd it would not be a bad round to try out.. seen it can beloaded to 45/70 specs in some bulllets and load HOT to

Well, if you're building a big bore based upon British definition you have to build a 458 win mag or greater. Anything less is a medium bore.

458 seems like a good choice to me since it's easy to reload for. My only suggestion is use a CRF action. You'll get the itch sooner or later to shoot something big and nasty with it.

With modern powders and bullets, the 458 Win Mag is now the cartridge it was meant to be back when it was first introduced. Recoil is tolerable in a rifle of proper weight, bullet availability is better than any other caliber, and everyone makes factory ammunition for it. All the power you need, as well.

recoil in your handi-rifle puts you in the low 40's as far as ft-lbs. 458 is going to be a bit heavier. Although, are you clocking those loads over a chrony? They seem a touch fast, even in the 22" barrel. Most data I have seen says about 400-600fps increase over pistol loads. That would put hot 370's about 2000fps on the dot. That is still

In a 10lbs rifle, a 500gr bullet going 2150 is going to net 60ft-lbs of recoil.

However, even at 42lbs in the handi vs 60lbs in the 10lbs rifle, the recoil velocity is about the same, with the 500 going a bit faster. In theory, you should get a heavy shove from the 458 vs the sharp crack of the handi. I have shot the handi in 500, its no joke lol VERY light gun.

I like it, it was my first. Its flexible to start out with and there are a wide range of bullet weights. I started with 385 grain lead cast loads in the 1400 fps range. Little recoil and let me develop good technique with the rifle.

Id suggest the 458 lott you can run max win speed if wanted or up to 2250-2300 if you desire

The 458 Win Mag would be an excellent choice.

Think about a Ruger No1. You do not have to worry about any feeding problems, and they are fun to hunt deer and pigs with.

See this is the grey area lott brass and win brass is the same price plus or minus a dollar you can also do a 450 ackleydont get me wrong I love the winnie but with the price of brass for the lott basically the same I always suggest this to clients when asked about the winchester lovely round but for a fresh build I dont see it but in a great priced second hand gun that fits yes but new build lott or ackley

The 458WM is an excellent choice for all the posts mentioned above. You mentioned 500 gr's at 2150 which is very easy to accomplish (safely) however it is additionally easy to push something like a 450 gr Swift at 2270-2280 FPS if you want something to shoot a bit flatter and you are not hunting Elephant. I have not loaded any 400's but I hear of 2400 FPS capability.
Keep the gun around your suggested 10 lb weight and it will be about perfect. Drop to 9 or even 8 and it will get your attention.
A 450 swift @ 2270 FPS in a Winnie is a sweet accurate load! My Browning Safari grade has a spot in the front of my safe. Has turned out to be one of my favorite rifle / caliber combinations.

458 lott -- get a cz in it, and you are ready to go.

oh, and for all the "goodness" of a 458 winmag, that's true.. and since you can fire the winmag in the lott without damage, then the lott is even BETTER (heh)

brass for the lott is actually "easier" to find than for the winmag .. a couple years ago, winchestere dropped winmag as even a seasonal run.. but I belive they are doing a run every couple years.

for a .458 anything, you have the widest bullet selection .. and even some cheap bullets

get a lott chamber and feed it whatever you will

MileHighShooter I have 2 one is a NEF but dont shoot it much anymore it opens apone shooting now they arnt that fast in that one .. I have a custom Encore barrle it is 25" and that is where I get the higher volictyis ... my crono can be on the high side some times but hard to figer out when it is and when it is not..all I know is the 25" barrle pushes them dam fast also some a slight over loads LOL ... i know the LOTT and others can be nice but i ask all this becouse I have a Action laying on my Bench with a Magnum bolt face .. was a 300 win mag and looking to try and bild a buget gun that can be used in africa if needs be and see how inexpensive I can do it .. so i have the Stock and Action.. what twist rate would you all recomend for this 458 Win Mag ?? Saw a 1-16" twist for sale in the clasifides ..

What Jeff said. The CZ Lott will do anything the 458 will do and more.
It is ready to go out of the box. Priced at $1,100-1,200.

I vote for the 458Lott. If thats the question. And you will build that on an M700 action. ok.

I had major trouble with my CZ550 in that caliber. So; I would recommend the Ruger over the CZ. If you decide to buy a gun. Or, If for some reason you dont like the Ruger, than maybe the new Winchester M70, which unfortunately is offered in 458WinMag but no Lott.

I dont like the 458WM because of all the historical baggage and the Lott seems like it should be easier to reload and more versatile at the high end.

I do think the choice of rifle is as important as the choice of caliber. By all means, get the far superior 458Lott, but also select a reliable high quality firearm. Not to say fancy. I went down the CZ road passed up the Ruger to save 1,000. I am now sorry. If the M70 is offered in 458Lott in the future, I will make trade up. I believe the M70 is only a couple hundred more.

The rem700 is not a highly respected big bore DG rifle. my 3c FWIW. I guess I heard that here on AR a few times.

With all its faults, I would still prefer my bad luck CZ over a Rem700. The CZ could be fixed at AHR, I am sure.

Like you, I am just in this (big bore stuff) for fun. But, too truely live the fantasy, I want my big bore guns to look and feel the part.

I bought about the first 458 Mod 70 Win rifle sold in El Paso, Texas back in the 1950s The magazine BS about it had everyone wanting them, and I was no different, though I had zero NEED for one.

At first there were no dies, or brass available unless you wanted to wait for the dies, and buy Factory ammo to get the brass. I loaded the cartridges with a 45-70 die that I cut back to make it into a neck sizing die till I could get RCBS dies for the Win Mag.

Living in the Sanoran desert Southwest where temperatures reach 105 F on most summer days, and having thousands of square miles of open country to bounce around in a 4x4, it didn’t take long to find hang fires, and outright duds in the factory ammo. It was not much better with hand-loads if you tried to get the advertised velocities, with the powders available at that time. That was then, and now is now, and the 458 Win Mag is fine with the powders we have today.

That being said, if you are wanting a new rifle or to build a new rifle, why chamber for a 458 Win Mag when the 458 LOTT is available, a round that will get all the velocity that the 458 Win Mag will with far less pressure, and will top it quite easily if that is what you want to do. Top that off with the fact that 458 Win Mag ammo can be used in a rifle with a 458LOTT chamber without problem, and this too can be loaded down by using lighter bullets if you want to shoot deer, and hogs. The LOTT is what the 458 Win Mag should have been from the get-go, and none of the problems with the win mag in its infancy would have ever come about. I have a Lott, and I load mine to the same ballistics as the 450NE 3 ¼” with 480 gr bullets to 2150 fps, and it will take just about anything that walks crawls, or flies, and I doubt any animal will be able to detect the difference, but your shoulder will, and it makes the rifle so easy to shoot accurately!

As someone said if you find a super bargain on a 458 Win Mag rifle in good shape then buy it, but if you want the best of both worlds buy, or build a 458 LOTT, that will shoot both cartridges. Either one is a fine rifle for an Alaskan guide who specializes in Brown bear hunting, and either will serve, but if I were buying or building the LOTT would get my vote!

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
I vote for the 458Lott. If thats the question. And you will build that on an M700 action. ok.

I had major trouble with my CZ550 in that caliber. So; I would recommend the Ruger over the CZ. If you decide to buy a gun. Or, If for some reason you dont like the Ruger, than maybe the new Winchester M70, which unfortunately is offered in 458WinMag but no Lott.

I dont like the 458WM because of all the historical baggage and the Lott seems like it should be easier to reload and more versatile at the high end.

I do think the choice of rifle is as important as the choice of caliber. By all means, get the far superior 458Lott, but also select a reliable high quality firearm. Not to say fancy. I went down the CZ road passed up the Ruger to save 1,000. I am now sorry. If the M70 is offered in 458Lott in the future, I will make trade up. I believe the M70 is only a couple hundred more.

The rem700 is not a highly respected big bore DG rifle. my 3c FWIW. I guess I heard that here on AR a few times.

With all its faults, I would still prefer my bad luck CZ over a Rem700. The CZ could be fixed at AHR, I am sure.

Like you, I am just in this (big bore stuff) for fun. But, too truely live the fantasy, I want my big bore guns to look and feel the part.

What type of problems did you have with your CZ?

The only reason I can think of to get a 458 Winchester instead of the 458 Lott would be because of rifle availability. Example would be the Model 70 which only comes in 458 Win.

Is there anyone on this forum who would seriously consider a CZ in 458 Win instead of 458 Lott?

quote:

What type of problems did you have with your CZ?

1. Top cartridge would pop out of the magazine on the ground after unload first fired round.

2. Hornady flat nose solid would hang on feed ramp.

3. Bent or mis aligned barrel shoots 12 inch low at 25 yards - requires custom rings and bases.

The last straw was hearing the solution to No3 was to return the gun where they will 'bend' the barrel up!

I am not looking for advise. This is a warning CZ has serious QC problem. I found lots of friends here on AR with similar problems. They can be fixed. It is a hassle to me, while others dont seem to mind. Thankfully, AHR does a great service fixing (and improving)these guns. I have a 375HH reworked by AHR. A very nice gun. I also own a custom shop , St Louis 505gibbs by CZ which is fine. The problem is those cheap $1000 off the boat guns from Check republic factory - slip shod to say the least.

I think the smart shooters will be aware of all the CZ issues and buy a gun either with intention of sending it to AHR regardless OR carefully test fire the gun and if it has serious problems just trade it off and get another. They are so cheap and the resale is excellent. You can buy one for $1000 and then dump it for $900. That $100, is the cost of one box of factory ammo. The used CZ seem to sell very well. I assume to buyers who know all the tricks to fix them or have the AHR plan. I think you could buy and sell a used CZ550 for no loss at all if you are careful.

I bought a CZ "cheap" years ago in a 458 Win mag. I think about $600.00 or less when Sportsmans Warehouse was closing in Dallas. I felt the magazine was way to long for the cartridge. They were swimming around in there and would make a noticable clank when shifting the gun around. I had it rechambered in a 458 Lott? I believe the CZ magazine and action is better suited to the Lott.
As was stated above, I would suggest you base as much decision on the rifle. The CZ has its merits as it is a fine action that can be polished up and enhanced considerably as in a AHR grade 2 upgrade and 5-6 cartridge capacity in the magazine. The stock is little more than a club but it works!
When I rechambered the CZ, I later bought my 458WM in a Browning Safari grade. Although it does not have the capacity of the CZ, and functions no better, it does fit me better, far better balanced and is extremely accurate. It has no issue pushing a 500 gr bullet at 2150 FPS in +100 F weather without binding the action (handload). I think this is all it was designed for.
The 458 Lott will give you more velocity; but at 10-20 yards do you need it? I believe both these cartridges are better suited with 450 gr's if you are not hunting elephants.

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
The only reason I can think of to get a 458 Winchester instead of the 458 Lott would be because of rifle availability. Example would be the Model 70 which only comes in 458 Win.

Is there anyone on this forum who would seriously consider a CZ in 458 Win instead of 458 Lott?

I would think the 375 H&H would be a good rifle
to start off with. thats the one I started off
with. Then I got a 416 shooting 400gr bullets.
then I got the 458 Lott.

quote:

Originally posted by jro45:
I would think the 375 H&H would be a good rifle
to start off with. thats the one I started off
with. Then I got a 416 shooting 400gr bullets.
then I got the 458 Lott.

What he said.

I would only get the Lott if I needed the extra velocity it provides. Otherwise I would pick the 458 Win.

465H&H

Honest to god I try to keep my mouth shut, but not this time. I am going to take some crap, even from good friends, Sorry Jeffe and other buds! But you could not give me a CZ anything, or even a damned dozen of them, or a 100 for free, zero, nothing. I don't see spending $800 to $1000 on a POS, then having to spend another $500-$1000 to see if maybe you can get it to work, and still have a POS. Cheap is just that, cheap! It will be cheap as long as you are alive.

Of course most know I am somewhat "Obsessive Compulsive" with things, but if it ain't a Winchester M70 then it's just something else to be avoided. So take that for what it is.

Find yourself a good Win M70 in 458 Winchester, you can't go wrong, and later down the road you will be happy you did so. Yep, gonna cost a little more than a cheap gun, but in the end, you won't have a cheap gun, you will have something that works proper to begin with. And probably in the end spend less money that trying to go cheap! Instead of spending your time trying to learn how to overcome malfunctions, you can spend your time shooting!

Such a wide variety of bullets in 458 you can do anything with a 458 Winchester. Down load to 45/70 velocities, or up load to full loads. Later if you want to convert to 458 Lott, you can do that easy enough too.

If the current M70s come in the lott, then I would get the Lott. Occasionally you see a few of the Custom Shop Lotts but they are hard to come by and not inexpensive when you do. I had some M70 actions laying around, sent 5 of them to SSK to build 458 lotts on. Have Accurate Innovations working on 5 Turkish and English walnut stocks for them right now. I figure that if Winchester is not going to do a lott that I would do a few. Can't do any B&Ms or MDMs with those actions anyway, so make them into something worthwhile.

Look around get yourself a M70 in 458 Win or Lott.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Honest to god I try to keep my mouth shut, but not this time. I am going to take some crap, even from good friends, Sorry Jeffe and other buds! But you could not give me a CZ anything, or even a damned dozen of them, or a 100 for free, zero, nothing. I don't see spending $800 to $1000 on a POS, then having to spend another $500-$1000 to see if maybe you can get it to work, and still have a POS. Cheap is just that, cheap! It will be cheap as long as you are alive.

Of course most know I am somewhat "Obsessive Compulsive" with things, but if it ain't a Winchester M70 then it's just something else to be avoided. So take that for what it is.

Find yourself a good Win M70 in 458 Winchester, you can't go wrong, and later down the road you will be happy you did so. Yep, gonna cost a little more than a cheap gun, but in the end, you won't have a cheap gun, you will have something that works proper to begin with. And probably in the end spend less money that trying to go cheap! Instead of spending your time trying to learn how to overcome malfunctions, you can spend your time shooting!

Such a wide variety of bullets in 458 you can do anything with a 458 Winchester. Down load to 45/70 velocities, or up load to full loads. Later if you want to convert to 458 Lott, you can do that easy enough too.

If the current M70s come in the lott, then I would get the Lott. Occasionally you see a few of the Custom Shop Lotts but they are hard to come by and not inexpensive when you do. I had some M70 actions laying around, sent 5 of them to SSK to build 458 lotts on. Have Accurate Innovations working on 5 Turkish and English walnut stocks for them right now. I figure that if Winchester is not going to do a lott that I would do a few. Can't do any B&Ms or MDMs with those actions anyway, so make them into something worthwhile.

Look around get yourself a M70 in 458 Win or Lott.

Michael

I've got five CZs they are all keepers, The Winchester bolt guns I've owned over the years are all long gone. Someday I may find one I like and is worth keeping. If if that happen I won't gloat, I'll just enjoy the surprise.

Well what can I say GoJoe, I have over 100 Winchester M70s right now, and there are no issues with them whatsoever. 70 odd are all big bore rifles. I keep the rest of them to make into something with a bigger bore. can't say much about any of the small bores. But make mine a Winchester or nothing at all!

Michael

The CZ550, M70 and Ruger all have a loyal big bore following. I have keepers by all three. A love - hate affair with CZ and rock solid Rugers and M70s.

Are there any Rem M700 DG big bore fans?

Take a look at a good Interarms Mark X Whitworth in .375H&H. These are dependable and accurate rifles, come with really nice and well fitted stocks, and are easy to add quality optics. I have owned several and I usually have to adjust the express sights (seems the original owners have never used them). These guns I feel are better balanced that the CZ's, Rugers, and Winchesters, and I have owned them all at some point. A good used Mark X will range between $1000 and $1600, toward the higher end if it comes with a scope. The .375 H&H makes a great North America cartridge from brown bear to whitetail, and can even be used for coyotes etc., plus makes an excellent choice for Africa. Unless you're in Africa, the .375H&H is more versatile. Then look for a double rifle when you want to move to the .40+ categories if that's in your budget. If DR's aren't in your budget, then find a matching .458winmag in an Interarms Mark X, and you've got a matched pair so to speak. Just my thoughts. I've never seen a malfunction, AD, or misfire from a Mark X. Good solid Mauser action. Mike

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
sending it to AHR regardless ...or have the AHR plan.

Please pardon my ignorance, but what is AHR??

Cheers!

I vote for any of the various zastava made Mausers in 458 Win. Most recently imported under the remington brand as the model 798. Now discontinued, but easy to find for cheap. The old tang safety model 77's can be very inexpensive and balance very well. This the only heavy "African" model gun that I have ever really shot, but it seemed just right for me. Of all the opinions you've heard on this thread, the one that should carry the most weight is Phil Shoemakers (458 Win) as he is probably more experienced than anyone else. But that in itself is just my opinion, and I have almost no experience.

Sold a Win 70 375 lefty to buy a lefty CZ 550 American Safari 375 and am one happy camper.
Love my 70's but in the 375 caliber CZ beats the shit out a Winchester.
But, I love my Ruger Alaskan in 375 Ruger as much as I do my CZ so most of you would consider me nuts anyhow.

AHR / American Hunting Rifle ?! I know a 500 AHR !!? For a first timer , the 458 Lott is a good choice ! But if you like bigger , why not ?

Yes - "American Hunting Rifles". They do a serious side business, if not their main business, fixing, tuning and customizing CZ550s.

http://www.hunting-rifles.com/CZ/CZowners.htm

Contrary to one prior post a $1000 cz with $300-500 worth of AHR work makes for a great gun. Classic looks and solid performance. To be honest, although I have an AHR upgrade, Ive not shot is a lot yet. My endorsement is based mainly on feedback from this forum. IMHO, the big stock really fits the medium to larger shooter and soaks up the ft-lbs very well. If you dont like the stock AHR can slim that down.

A CZ right off the boat - be warned, it is a crap shoot!

A custom gun from teh CZ StLouis should be fine, or mine was. Few to no, AR complaints on those.

I dont believe every Winchester M70, push feed, birch stock, press checkering, Ted Williams is much of a prize.

Too their credit, CZ will chamber almost any suitable round. Where Winchester is playing 458 games. A take this WinMag or leave it attitude.

I dont even see Remington in this game. In the case of Remington, seems no one cares. This post proposed a build on the Rem700. It seems fair to point out the M700 does not appear to have much of a following as DG gun.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

Contrary to one prior post a $1000 cz with $300-500 worth of AHR work makes for a great gun.

With a little shopping you can find a MkX, Whitworth or other Zastava rifle in 458 Win for $300 -$500 and if you are willing to spend anther $300-$500 with a knowledgeable gunsmith you will have a lighter, slimmer, more rugged and reliable DGR than the CZ.

The earlier problems of older 458 Win ammo not reaching their published velocities are like blaming the Bush administration for all ills. It is in the past. Modern ammo and new powders enable the 458 Win to easily reach 2150fps with a 500 gr bullet and the same 2400fps with 400 gr bulets as the .416.
If you make a living hunting DG in Africa and feel the need for the 458 Lott then get one, but an awful lot of African PH's still prefer the standard 458 Win, and here in the US those who tout the 458 Lott at the "only" big bore simply illustrate the old axiom that misery loves company.

quote:

Yes - "American Hunting Rifles". They do a serious side business, if not their main business, fixing, tuning and customizing CZ550s.

http://www.hunting-rifles.com/CZ/CZowners.htm

Contrary to one prior post a $1000 cz with $300-500 worth of AHR work makes for a great gun. Classic looks and solid performance. To be honest, although I have an AHR upgrade, Ive not shot is a lot yet. My endorsement is based mainly on feedback from this forum. IMHO, the big stock really fits the medium to larger shooter and soaks up the ft-lbs very well. If you dont like the stock AHR can slim that down.

I've got an AHR upgrade on my CZ550 and have shot quite a few rounds through it. I really like it and would not consider buying another CZ without sending it to Wayne at AHR. Those little things like the straightened bolt knob or fixing the claw to snap over a round fed directly into the chamber (like a push feed) really make the rifle that much better.

If you're confident with your wood working abilities, you can slim the stock down yourself and leave all the metal work to AHR. Wayne can also sell you another stock for your rifle if your first attempt at refinishing a stock doesn't quite go as planned (been there, done that).

Of all my rifles, if I were required to dump all but one, the keeper is a customized Mark X in .375 I call Lili Martel. Frighteningly accurate and with enough power to shoot anything you want. It wouldn't be my first choice to stop a charge, that requires a .450 Rigby Rimless, but for general hunting, worldwide, I stand by my motto, Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by Gojoe:

quote:

Originally posted by jro45:
I would think the 375 H&H would be a good rifle
to start off with. thats the one I started off
with. Then I got a 416 shooting 400gr bullets.
then I got the 458 Lott.

What he said.

+1 However since many on here consider the 375 to be a medium bore, I am surprised that no one has suggested the 404J as a starter big bore and or the 416 rigby. Having both and a 458wm in the past, the 404 would be a my recommendation,the smaller action(better handling) vs the Rigby being the edge in decision.

quote:

Originally posted by 375fan:

quote:

Originally posted by Gojoe:

quote:

Originally posted by jro45:
I would think the 375 H&H would be a good rifle
to start off with. thats the one I started off
with. Then I got a 416 shooting 400gr bullets.
then I got the 458 Lott.

What he said.

+1 However since many on here consider the 375 to be a medium bore, I am surprised that no one has suggested the 404J as a starter big bore and or the 416 rigby. Having both and a 458wm in the past, the 404 would be a my recommendation,the smaller action(better handling) vs the Rigby being the edge in decision.

I found a beautiful CZ safari classic in 416 rigby, fantastic wood, lightly used and a steal at $1100. I was shopping for my first magnum and it was really nice. I passed, I had no exspireance with big bore guns other than reading about them. I've owned firearms of all types and have shot for almost 40 years. But I passed for fear of being stuck with it. The reason, the price of cartidges. 375 H&H are cheaper for the entry level shooter. Now I wish I had bought that CZ. (also)

CZ Fans

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