quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Regardless of whether someone thinks the Merkel action is strong, it remains that it was set up for a shotgun and later converted to double rifle use.

How could you possibly claim to know so without access to Merkel's design, testing, and manufacturing documents?

You can look at one and do some measuring.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Regardless of whether someone thinks the Merkel action is strong, it remains that it was set up for a shotgun and later converted to double rifle use.

How could you possibly claim to know so without access to Merkel's design, testing, and manufacturing documents?

You can look at one and do some measuring.

Based on the banter between you and RIP, I gather you are an attorney......

Better stick to the courtroom, Mr 500 Grains. you have much to learn about manufacturing and inspection.

You, at the most will have a micrometer and a set of dial calipers. Those tools will not tell you much w/o a blueprint and material specs for whatever you are inspecting.

Don't try to bullshit me about what you can learn by taking a few measurements with basic shop tools. I've been in the business for over a decade now......

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Regardless of whether someone thinks the Merkel action is strong, it remains that it was set up for a shotgun and later converted to double rifle use.

How could you possibly claim to know so without access to Merkel's design, testing, and manufacturing documents?

You can look at one and do some measuring.

Based on the banter between you and RIP, I gather you are an attorney......

Better stick to the courtroom, Mr 500 Grains. you have much to learn about manufacturing and inspection.

You, at the most will have a micrometer and a set of dial calipers. Those tools will not tell you much w/o a blueprint and material specs for whatever you are inspecting.

Don't try to bullshit me about what you can learn by taking a few measurements with basic shop tools. I've been in the business for over a decade now......

I am amazed that you would take the position that you cannot learn anything from the actual firearm. Perhaps you are not an engineer???

I have a headache reading all this to and fro. Their affordable ,they do the job , they hit what your aiming at,screw the scrolling, its saved my arse twice,my wife can shoot it, its in .470 most jungle canoes have a well stocked supply at inflated prices, my dentist has one,the paper boy is saving for one, it has NEVER NEVER,NEVER,NEVER EVER LET ME DOWN PERIOD!!!!!!! Thats what counts folks. Im going to bed........... No im not done yet, Its not a Rigby ,who cares, its not this or that. Its made from 1958 Edsel hub caps so what. Its a side, box ,up down, sideways locking system that went out in 1756 i dont care. We were tracking a Kudu bull for the fifth day in the god forsaken pouring rain and it put down the old bastard of a buff that had been raising hell with the local folks and decided its our turn next. He waited till we were psst him and came from behind us on purpose. It saved my life and thats all that counts for me.So go one and bicker from your easy chairs and i'll watch the tele. now im off to bed. Charlie

I wasn't intentionally crapping on Merkel. If you want a Merkel buy a Merkel. I am just saying there are tons of choices out there.

I think the best money spent is on a solid used gun, I didn't go that route, because I wanted different features. I like the Blaser change caliber, and sight features the best. $8500 is a lot of money for most folks to throw around.

Do a lot of looking and try them all on for size.

All I am saying is

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Regardless of whether someone thinks the Merkel action is strong, it remains that it was set up for a shotgun and later converted to double rifle use.

How could you possibly claim to know so without access to Merkel's design, testing, and manufacturing documents?

You can look at one and do some measuring.

Based on the banter between you and RIP, I gather you are an attorney......

Better stick to the courtroom, Mr 500 Grains. you have much to learn about manufacturing and inspection.

You, at the most will have a micrometer and a set of dial calipers. Those tools will not tell you much w/o a blueprint and material specs for whatever you are inspecting.

Don't try to bullshit me about what you can learn by taking a few measurements with basic shop tools. I've been in the business for over a decade now......

I am amazed that you would take the position that you cannot learn anything from the actual firearm. Perhaps you are not an engineer???

I am an engineer, you brainiac. That's why I'm LMAO at you, who thinks that you can tell everyting about the mechanical properties of a steel alloy with a micrometer and a pair of calipers.

Tell me, what is the yield point and surface hardness of the Merkel action and compare that to your "double rifle" action of choice.

I don't pretend to be a lawyer, and you should not pretend to be a metallurgist, mechanical engineer, or toolmaker.

Please, quit while you are ahead.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles Mc Williams:
I have a headache reading all this to and fro. Their affordable ,they do the job , they hit what your aiming at,screw the scrolling, its saved my arse twice,my wife can shoot it, its in .470 most jungle canoes have a well stocked supply at inflated prices, my dentist has one,the paper boy is saving for one, it has NEVER NEVER,NEVER,NEVER EVER LET ME DOWN PERIOD!!!!!!! Thats what counts folks. Im going to bed........... No im not done yet, Its not a Rigby ,who cares, its not this or that. Its made from 1958 Edsel hub caps so what. Its a side, box ,up down, sideways locking system that went out in 1756 i dont care. We were tracking a Kudu bull for the fifth day in the god forsaken pouring rain and it put down the old bastard of a buff that had been raising hell with the local folks and decided its our turn next. He waited till we were psst him and came from behind us on purpose. It saved my life and thats all that counts for me.So go one and bicker from your easy chairs and i'll watch the tele. now im off to bed. Charlie

Good on ya, Charlie!

The cavalry has arrived.

Blanket party for 500groans.

Frag the sucker!

Seriously, now, how can you question an age old design like the A&D boxlock with Greener crossbolt and sideclips and adequate bolsters, and made of the best materials with CNC and hand finishing?

The barrels are chopper lumped from scratch for a double rifle.

Anyone who says the fit and finish of metal to metal and metal to wood on a Merkel is any less than best quality, well he is passing gas like 500groans.

Dammit 500groans, do you not realize that all these double rifles started off as an off shoot of adapting shotgun actions to express rifles.

H&H actions started off as shotguns.

Hell, the A&D/Greener shotgun was a treasure before Nitro Expresses even existed, before the muckety mucks began to refine it, and their refinements had nothing to do with the strength and adequacy of the A&D boxlock.

Modern manufacture and materials ensures no questions here.

They all started off as shotguns from the beginnings.

Merkel emailed me once, when I inquired as to the durability of the guns. They said they had tested the actions for 500 rounds in all calibers offered. No loosening or off face. Not much of a test, but 5000 rounds might break one in nicely.

Now, I'll throw the blanket over 500groans, and you cavalry members continue swinging the clubs.

HP Shooter,
The product (tort) liability laws being what they are in the USA, anyone going into the trade making rifles of any kind, with anyone's actions will be DAMN sure to make a safe product or they will soon be facing financial ruin, and possibly criminal charges as well.

I think the Remington trigger saga negates your argument, as does the Ford Explore/tyres fiasco.

I am not sure why so many Americans fear their own elected Government so, but I would just say that I have never seen the proof laws in any European country being politically manipulated that way nor the UK for that matter...

The proofhouses were actually set up to protect consumers and they have done a great job. I can buy a firearms off the shelf in the UK and *know* it is safe...that is not so in some countries.....

Regards,

Pete

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

I am an engineer, you brainiac. That's why I'm LMAO at you, who thinks that you can tell everyting about the mechanical properties of a steel alloy with a micrometer and a pair of calipers.

Tell me, what is the yield point and surface hardness of the Merkel action and compare that to your "double rifle" action of choice.

I don't pretend to be a lawyer, and you should not pretend to be a metallurgist, mechanical engineer, or toolmaker.

So you are now taking the position that the only difference between a Merkel double rifle action and a Merkel double shotgun action is metallurgy/hardening? In other words, you are saying that Merkel shotgun and rifle actions are PHYSICALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE.

In other words, they are the same.

hell..
pick up the phone, call merkel.. ask if the shotgun and rifle actions come off the same assembly line...

i'd wager they DO as it's silly to produce two near twins and have two sets of people and machines making them...

that means the shotgun is OVER built, if the rifle is good...


WHO CARES at the end of the day?

I'll be risking MY LIFE on building a double from a shotgun.... That's my money where my mouth is. anyone else up to that today?


jeffe

quote:

I'll be risking MY LIFE on building a double from a shotgun.... That's my money where my mouth is. anyone else up to that today?

How did you decide on an action?

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
HP Shooter,
The product (tort) liability laws being what they are in the USA, anyone going into the trade making rifles of any kind, with anyone's actions will be DAMN sure to make a safe product or they will soon be facing financial ruin, and possibly criminal charges as well.

I think the Remington trigger saga negates your argument, as does the Ford Explore/tyres fiasco.

I am not sure why so many Americans fear their own elected Government so, but I would just say that I have never seen the proof laws in any European country being politically manipulated that way nor the UK for that matter...

The proofhouses were actually set up to protect consumers and they have done a great job. I can buy a firearms off the shelf in the UK and *know* it is safe...that is not so in some countries.....

Regards,

Pete

Ford and Bridgestone/Firestone have been severely punished financially both in the court system and in the marketplace.

Remington will end up there as well if they don't watch their step.

It is not surprising that you, like most Europeans, finds our distrust of ANY government incomprehensible. That distrust is what our very nation was founded upon, and only today, 230 years after the fact has the Federal Government reached a point that is borderline unconstitutional.

I don't expect someone born and raised in a pairlamentary monarchy to ever understand.

If I tell you that a US Federal Proofhouse would be turned against us by the Democratic Party in power it is because I have some very compelling evidence based their past actions against firearm owners, dealers, and manufacturers.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

I am an engineer, you brainiac. That's why I'm LMAO at you, who thinks that you can tell everyting about the mechanical properties of a steel alloy with a micrometer and a pair of calipers.

Tell me, what is the yield point and surface hardness of the Merkel action and compare that to your "double rifle" action of choice.

I don't pretend to be a lawyer, and you should not pretend to be a metallurgist, mechanical engineer, or toolmaker.

So you are now taking the position that the only difference between a Merkel double rifle action and a Merkel double shotgun action is metallurgy/hardening? In other words, you are saying that Merkel shotgun and rifle actions are PHYSICALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE.

In other words, they are the same.

You had better stop playing lawyer with me by putting words in my mouth.

I don't give a shit about the dimensional differences between Merkel shotgun and rifle actions.

What your pea brain doesn't seem to understand is that size alone is not going to tell you which action is stronger. There is a hell of a lot more to it than that.

Like I said, stop making yourself look foolish.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:

How did you decide on an action?

Partly from Ellis Brown's book, partly from my wallet...

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/129104832

jeffe

quote:

What your pea brain doesn't seem to understand is that size alone is not going to tell you which action is stronger. There is a hell of a lot more to it than that.

Like I said, stop making yourself look foolish.

That's the question on the floor, and your qualifications as an engineer seem to point to you as the most qualified to answer it.

So if there is a "hell of a lot more to it than that" - I'd like to know what your opinion is on the specifics of "more to it than that", rather than the generalization.

We're all trying to learn here...

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:

quote:

What your pea brain doesn't seem to understand is that size alone is not going to tell you which action is stronger. There is a hell of a lot more to it than that.

Like I said, stop making yourself look foolish.

That's the question on the floor, and your qualifications as an engineer seem to point to you as the most qualified to answer it.

So if there is a "hell of a lot more to it than that" - I'd like to know what your opinion is on the specifics of "more to it than that", rather than the generalization.

We're all trying to learn here...

OK, some of the things that have a significant bearing on a metal part's strength are: the alloy, its grain structure, its type of and depth of hardening. The measurable qualities are modulus of elasticity, yeild strength, elongation %, Rockwell hardness, among others.

None of those things are measurable with the tools 500 Grains has in his workshop at home.

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

OK, some of the things that have a significant bearing on a metal part's strength are: the alloy, its grain structure, its type of and depth of hardening. The measurable qualities are modulus of elasticity, yeild strength, elongation %, Rockwell hardness, among others.

None of those things are measurable with the tools 500 Grains has in his workshop at home.

Just to emphasize the point, we all agree that the Merkel shotgun and rifle actions are physically indistinguishable. Ordinary folks will then conclude that they are the same action.

But you assert that within the grouping of these physically indistingsuishable Merkel shotgun and rifle actions, the Merkel rifle actions are made from a different material than the Merkel shotgun actions. Please tell us what the two materials are, and how they differ in terms of "modulus of elasticity, yeild strength, elongation %, Rockwell hardness, among others".

quote:

Originally posted by HP Shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:

quote:

What your pea brain doesn't seem to understand is that size alone is not going to tell you which action is stronger. There is a hell of a lot more to it than that.

Like I said, stop making yourself look foolish.

That's the question on the floor, and your qualifications as an engineer seem to point to you as the most qualified to answer it.

So if there is a "hell of a lot more to it than that" - I'd like to know what your opinion is on the specifics of "more to it than that", rather than the generalization.

We're all trying to learn here...

OK, some of the things that have a significant bearing on a metal part's strength are: the alloy, its grain structure, its type of and depth of hardening. The measurable qualities are modulus of elasticity, yeild strength, elongation %, Rockwell hardness, among others.

None of those things are measurable with the tools 500 Grains has in his workshop at home.

Sounds good, now if you were designing a DR action how would you define some of those variables?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
In other words, you are saying that Merkel shotgun and rifle actions are PHYSICALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE.

In other words, they are the same.

Not true...you are doin' a bit o' lawyerin' here Dan. If there are differences in the metallurgy between the shotgun and rifle actions, these DO constitute "physical differences" and they are most certainly distinguishable from one another. That is the point, after all, of any differences isn't it? Were metallurgical properties not having an impact on the performance of an action, companies wouldn't bother right? What distinguishes a soft action from a hard one, though they might not be IMMEDIATELY or EASILY distinguishable from one another, is simply that one blows up and one doesn't.

I do get a huge kick out of these arguments here on AR. It seems that nothing ever changes no matter how much money or education people manage to get in their lives. It is always the same Jr. High bullshit. Just like kids argue about the relative quality of their Dads' cars or baseball players or whatever, adults want to believe that they bought the best car, or have the prettiest girlfriend/wife, rifle, boat, motorcycle etc. God help you if you disagree! The truth is that a Merkel will likely last more than a few lifetimes just like a Searcy whether or not the action is absolutely identical to their shotgun action.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

quote:

the alloy, its grain structure, its type of and depth of hardening. The measurable qualities are modulus of elasticity, yeild strength, elongation %, Rockwell hardness, among others.

Interesting.
The alloy - you betcha it could make a big difference. Probably chrome moly similar to SAE 4140 though. If it was a nickel or manganese based ordnance steel it would be better though. Then it could be a case carburizing grade, say SAE 8620 or being German perhaps 17CrNiMo6.

Grain size - definitely important, typically goes hand in hand with hardness and alloy.

Let see Young's Modulus (aka modulus of elasticity) for steels generally used in rifle acitons ~ 29,600,000 psi (it will be the same for both Merkel rifle and Merkel shotgun ). It is also independent of material hardness (for the overwhelming majority of steels).

Yield Strength - interesting, at what point? Also what kinda yield strength, compressive, tensile, shear, etc? You do realize that 'strength' is not a REAL value don't you?

% elongation - you are kidding right? This is a practically worthless metric. Seriously, it really says NOTHING.

Rockwell hardness - which time you measured it? Rockwell hardness testers aren't too aweful repeatable.


What really matters is the stress levels imparted to the action by the firing of a cartridge. Then comparing these stress levels with the mechanical properties possessed by the action.

HP Shooter, here are a few technical questions for you, and they go directly to your qualifications to speak on the stress / strength of side by side doubles.

1.) Where is the highest stress on a side by side double rifle or shotgun?

2.) What is the primary fatigue failure mode of a side by side double rifle?

3.) What is the primary overload (ultimate strength) failure mode of a side by side double rifle?

That oughta do it.

ASS_CLOWN

Oh boy! AC is here!

I am an imbecile but:

1. The angle where the water table meets the standing breech.

2. An increase of that angle by any increment over 90 degrees, and it is off face, also with any YIELD or loosening by wear on the hinge pin or bearing surface of the lump, and it is off face.

3. Lateral stresses caused by the off centerline recoil of the side-by-side putting stresses on the bearing parts???

Just guessing.

Please tell us what you think.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnTheGreek:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
In other words, you are saying that Merkel shotgun and rifle actions are PHYSICALLY INDISTINGUISHABLE.

In other words, they are the same.

Not true...you are doin' a bit o' lawyerin' here Dan.

Same action.

Different metallurgy.

That should be plain enough. However, the fellow who alleged that the Merkel shotgun and rifle actions are actually a different alloy has not offered any supporting information, so I remain skeptical of whether there is any basis in his statement.

So either they are the same action, same metallurgy.

Or they are the same action, different metallurgy.

Either way it is not too impressive for such a large company to cut corners by putting their rifles on a shotgun action. No wonder they came off face in .375 and .416.

To NNNobody in particular,

They are all shotgun actions, that is where they all started.

Amazing how Searcy can do it with no third fastener, just the double byte purdey fasteners underneath, which the Merkel also has. Merkels also have that extra nicety, the side clip, which act as a fourth fastener, along with their third fastener Greener crossbolt.

I wish I new the secrets of Searcy metallurgy and the Merkel specifics too.

Any doubles chambered in .375 H&H or .416 Rigby will be prone to shoot of face, no matter who makes it. Pressures in the .375 H&H factory ammo may be over 60,000 psi. Forget the thrust analyses with those cartridges.

It is a wonder that the Merkel is tested and survives 500 rounds of .375 H&H factory ammo, not off face.

Amazing how many makers have chambered for belted magnums like the .458 WinMag, in the past. Almost all of them. They learn slowly.

oh hell..
i don't mind a good arguement, but to wrestle around with that STENCH of troll excement...

jeffe

.

quote:

Any doubles chambered in .375 H&H or .416 Rigby will be prone to shoot of face, no matter who makes it. Pressures in the .375 H&H factory ammo may be over 60,000 psi. Forget the thrust analyses with those cartridges.

It is a wonder that the Merkel is tested and survives 500 rounds of .375 H&H factory ammo, not off face.

Amazing how many makers have chambered for belted magnums like the .458 WinMag, in the past. Almost all of them. They learn slowly.

RIP - list for us
1) the number of Double Rifles you own in belted cartridges that have gone off face sooner than a non-belted chambering
2) the number you have seen a gunsmith work on that have gone off face sooner than a non-belted chambering
3) any other cases you can cite where belted magnum doubles go "off face" any sooner than a flanged cartridge.

Everyone seems to have heard this and continually repeats it, but no one can seem to be able to prove it. Kinda like Elvis sightings...

I challenge those that perpetuate this theory to call those guys over at H&H in London, or any other major DR mfg on the planet for that matter and "educate" them on what calibers are suitable for chambering in their double rifles.

Seriously, there has to be a lot of money in consulting to these guys... with this wealth of factual, documented information in the market place and no makers taking notice - someone could really cash in.

FYI - documented cases of such would probably help thier credibility in getting the consulting contracts.

new_guy,
I want 500groans to list all the Merkels shot off face in .375 H&H first.

Any idiot knows that a +60,000 psi belted cartridge is a bad idea in a double rifle.

Any idiot knows that a non-flanged cartridge in a dangerous game double rifle is a bad idea.

Any idiot knows that an O/U DG DR is a bad idea.

This is common knowledge. Also, Elvis has been sighted at a burger jont in Gabarone, said he was headed to Maun for the jumping off point, to safari in the Okavango. Safari is a sport fit for The King.

Many bad ideas are sold to idiots to make a buck. They are probably never shot enough to come off face. They are mostly bwanabe accessories, and they subsidize good gunmaking to some degree.

Now, I am hoping for some amusement as AC explains the forces that stress a double rifle. Lessee, AXIAL, RADIAL, and BENDING forces, and more!

How to counteract them?

The radius of the frame where standing breech meets action flat is important, eh?

How many fasteners can really be made to lock up and bear solidly and in harmony. Only two? Is that why the Searcy is so good? All else is ornamentation?

Yes Alf, My Merkel bears an inscription of "Krupp Stahl." Some would say it is mediocre, apparently.

Marlin 45/70

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
new_guy,
I want 500groans to list all the Merkels shot off face in .375 H&H first.

Any idiot knows that a +60,000 psi belted cartridge is a bad idea in a double rifle.

Any idiot knows that a non-flanged cartridge in a dangerous game double rifle is a bad idea.

Any idiot knows that an O/U DG DR is a bad idea.

This is common knowledge. Also, Elvis has been sighted at a burger jont in Gabarone, said he was headed to Maun for the jumping off point, to safari in the Okavango. Safari is a sport fit for The King.

Many bad ideas are sold to idiots to make a buck. They are probably never shot enough to come off face. They are mostly bwanabe accessories, and they subsidize good gunmaking to some degree.

Now, I am hoping for some amusement as AC explains the forces that stress a double rifle. Lessee, AXIAL, RADIAL, and BENDING forces, and more!

How to counteract them?

The radius of the frame where standing breech meets action flat is important, eh?

How many fasteners can really be made to lock up and bear solidly and in harmony. Only two? Is that why the Searcy is so good? All else is ornamentation?

Yes Alf, My Merkel bears an inscription of "Krupp Stahl." Some would say it is mediocre, apparently.

Well, there it is... RIP knows more about double rifles than those that build double rifles.

I give up.

Alf, my friend what did I say? I was merely remarking to what HPshooter said (his post was rather vague/pointless you must understand).

quote:

What really matters is the stress levels imparted to the action by the firing of a cartridge. Then comparing these stress levels with the mechanical properties possessed by the action.

The above quote from my last post sums it up very nicely. It is the fundmental truth to all design.

I would agree with you that most (more probable ALL) of the significant mechanical strength reliability issues have been dealt with as efficiently as possible on a A&D boxlock action sold today. Side clips are PERFECT example of a "fix" implemented ~ 100 years ago to dramatically improve the fatigue life of doubles.

I would not worship Krupp so greatly, they are mere mortals, their excrement does in fact STINK!

Personally, I much prefer the Merkel to the Searcy.

The secret to Searcy isn't so much metallurgy, but in utter size. He has significantly increased the section modulus of his actions; therefore, increasing their strength.

ASS_CLOWN

quote:

Originally posted by ASS_CLOWN:
The secret to Searcy isn't so much metallurgy, but in utter size. He has significantly increased the section modulus of his actions; therefore, increasing their strength.

ASS_CLOWN

have you seen a searcy lately?

looks like a smoothed out ithaca...

shesh... get with the program...

though trolls must not get out much

jeffe

new-guy,
Say uncle.
Marketing. Negative hype by competitors. That is all that is needed to explain the ugly on both sides here.

AC is no imbecile. I must say I am impressed with the bulky, strong appearance of the Searcy. I like the way the Merkel fit me and handled. I was an easy sell for a .470 NE DR with simple arabesque receiver, no cartoon animals.

The 500 NE Merkel seems to weigh the same as the .470 NE. Sporty!

.

If I understand the discussion correctly:

1. No one is asserting that there any physical differences between the Merkel shotgun and Merkel rifle actions.

2. RIP seems to have withdrawn his [ridiculous] assertion that Merkel shotguns are built on double rifle actions after it was pointed out that the Merkel shotguns came first, and to the extent that the actions are identical it would mean Merkel double rifles are built on a shotgun action.

3. HP Shooter asserted that there is a difference in metallurgy [only] between the Merkel shotgun and rifle actions but no one has been able to substantiate that difference.

4. Alf does not like AC, but RIP does like AC.

5. Krupp steel is better than other brands, even though it rhymes with 'crap'.

6. RIP thinks the engineers at Merkel and Holland & Holland are idiots since they have built doubles for belted magnum cartridges.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Any idiot knows that a +60,000 psi belted cartridge is a bad idea in a double rifle.

Correction,
Only an idiot would buy a DG double rifle chambered in a belted magnum cartridge.

I do have a Searcy built .338 Win Mag O/U on a 20 guage Ruger Red Label, but that is only for squirrels and such, and a nice curio. 250 grains at 2450 fps works well in it.

The builders of the belted magnum DR's are smart in the amount of money they have taken from idiots.

Oh yes, those Merkel shotguns are built on actions used in double rifles, and will last forever.

Now, I will observe this circle jerk from afar. AMFYOYO. Get to wankin' fellers.

Sorry, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings RIP - But I thought you were tough enough to dish it out and take it too?

Besides, I thought the letter summarized you argumnet quite well.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
Sorry, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings RIP - But I thought you were tough enough to dish it out and take it too?

Besides, I thought the letter summarized you argumnet quite well.

Since you are such a gentleman about it, let me post once more: No hurt feelings on my part. Just getting bored with the tedium. No questions remain in my mind about the topic this has devolved into.

Not sure why Alf hates me so??? I really cannot think of anything I have ever done to him. I also don't know why he seems to think I am bad mouthing anything on this thread???

New guy, yes I own DRs. I like the Merkel too.

ASS_CLOWN

.