Does anyone have an opinion about the Rigby boxlocks now being made in California? Are they worth the money? [about $20K]

LJS, this is only my opinion, but I'd buy a B.Searcy PH for less money, and also IMO, it is a better rifle!

The Rigby is a fancy Merkel at twice the price, and up! Nothing wrong with a Merkel, but it can be bought for around $8K new,off the shelf, and the Searcy is made to order for $9.5K ! Don't confuse the California Rigby with the old British Rigby, they are not the same rifle! Just my Opinion, and that can be had for $0.00K!

I agree with mac, the rigby isnt what it was. When i was double hunting i had two choices. A Merkle, and a Rigby. The Rigby was used and the Merkle was new so, it was back and forth and so on until i had such a headache i could not think. After a coffee and a couple of asprins, I went back and asked the gent to hand me each one with my eyes shut. After a few quick snaps to the shoulder from each i said, this one. I have never been sorry on the purchase of the Merkle, it has never let me down. Incedently my late Father-In-Law used it to finish his big five after his Rigby experienced extractor failure. Hope this helps you out. Charlie

I really like the look of the Rigby stocks, but they are way overpriced in my opinion since they are supposedly built on a 20 gauge Merkel shotgun frame. If you want a double rifle that is stout, durable and designed to last 10,000 shots or more, get a Searcy. And they cost less than half what Rigby gets.

When the street price of a brand new Merkel .470 is as low as $7200, I can't even imagine a reasonable person looking at a new Rigby. If you want the thing ornately engraved, send it to "Scrollcutter" and have some work done by the very guy who does engraving for Rigby anyway. Now, whether a Searcy is worth $2300 more than this very reasonable Merkel price...that is a personal decision.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
... they are supposedly built on a 20 gauge Merkel shotgun frame. ...

As i understand it, both the rigby and merkel are...

which is why i am going to build mine from a belg. 12 ga!!!

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
... they are supposedly built on a 20 gauge Merkel shotgun frame. ...

As i understand it, both the rigby and merkel are...

which is why i am going to build mine from a belg. 12 ga!!!

jeffe

That is BS.

Merkel shotguns may be built on double rifle actions.

Merkel double rifles are not built on shotgun actions.

Kalifornia Rigbys are built on Merkel double rifle actions too.

I own a Merkel .470 NE and it is a solid 10.75# gun with 23.6" barrels. Built like a bank vault.

I have handled plenty of other double rifles of all sorts of makes, Searcy, H&H, Jeffery, Chapuis, Rigbys of both type, Heym, Kreighoff, etc. The Merkel is favorable in all comparisons.

The Merkel 140 in .470 NE or .500 NE is the best buy out there, if they fit you like they do me, average as I am.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
... they are supposedly built on a 20 gauge Merkel shotgun frame. ...

As i understand it, both the rigby and merkel are...

which is why i am going to build mine from a belg. 12 ga!!!

jeffe

Some people believe any sort of commercially motivated mis-information campaigns.

45/70

Thanks for the input guys. I was able to trade into a Rigby 500/416 with removeable mounts and a Leupold 1.5x5 for about 1/2 price. I'll report back how she performs.

IMHO, the new Rigbys are a disgrace to an old and established name in the gun industry...A cheap immatation of a fine rifle...The bean counters at their best...

new_guy,
Merkel double rifles have been around for a long time. Turn of the century, late 1800's early 1900's stuff! As soon as there were NE cartridges, there were Merkels chambered for them. Read up a little on Suhl, Germany gunmakers, please, before you say there have only been Merkel double rifles for 5-8 years.

You must be referring to only the recent importing by GSI.

If the Kalifornicating Rigbys are monobloc from 20 guage Merkel shotguns, so be it.

Merkel double rifles are chopper lump construction. Is this the difference you are looking for?

re: 1800's-1900's - We're not talking about individually made guns, from a small MAKER with the same name that represents the firearms PRODUCER they are today, and merkel at the time your talking about was a gun maker, not a gun producer.
Same name, different world.
To clarify my point a Franchi Monte Carlo Imperial Deluxe shotgun is not the same gun that is made by Franchi today. Those guns were built when Franchi was still a small MAKER. Rigby used to make guns in London, but they aren't the same as the guns made in California.

The refrence to 5-8 years was specifically for the calibers they are producing today the big ones... as noted in my last paragraph... sorry, i should have been more specific in my first refrence.

But you enthusiastic response sounds convincing, so enlighted me (I'm always willing to learn) with knowledge of Suhl makers and show me a merkel pre-war 470 sxs that remotely resembles what they are making today, or more specifically a mass-produced or cataloged pre-war merkel 470 on an action that's remotely similar to the one we're debating here.

Better yet, I'd like to see a Merkel 470 with ejectors from 1930,40,50, or 1960 - again that looks like the gun they're offierng today... since they don't seem to offer them now... wonder why they used to offer them in all the sxs 470s they used to make, but decided not to when GSI started importing them?

As to the "differences" I noted above, it has nothing to do with barrel construction... i'm asking if anyone can specifically define the characteristics mutually exclusive to actions suitable for shotguns and the same for actions suitable for double rifles.

The Point is (I believe) that Merkel was producing shotguns on today's 140-type action long before they offered a commercially available 470 or a 500 on it. Thus i deduce that the 470 on today's 140-type action did not preceed the 20-gauge shotgun (that statment is subject to RIP's forthcoming research.)

So, how is it that you deduce that 20-gauge shotguns are made on frames designed for a 470?

RIP i agree with you on the quality and affordability of the Merkle.After many hundreds of rounds,being wet for days, banged around in many rovers, being dropped through various slips and falls,it still shoots true and still locks up like a bank vault. I have inherited a Westly Richards three gun set,while they are a work of art,I belive the Merkle locks up tighter. I was taught many years ago the key to a good double ( other than mechnical)is it doesnt feel as heavy as it is because of the ballance of the gun. I can honestly say mine at 10.75 lbs feels lighter than my sons in .375 that weighs a few ounces less. This is testimony to the artisans that make their product with pride.Thats what i think.. Charlie

The PH I hunted with last year in Zim has 500 NE California Rigby. I have a 470 Merkel. We examined both side by side and came to the conclusion both were Merkel actions. They differ in favor of the Rigby in quality of wood, engraving, sights and the Rigby has ejectors.. The Merkel is much more favorable on price of course.

As I recall the Rigby was a larger action than the Merkel, maybe something to do with the cartridge?

Both shoot fine.

BigB

Charles and BigB,
Jawohl! I like Merkels too! Thanks for the comments. Informative and entertaining for a gunnut.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
OK, call it a shotgun action, call it a DR action - whatever.

And before someone says it's as simple as a bolstered frame... here's an H&H 577 Royal w/out Bolstered frame

New guy, the bolster on a frame is a plus, you know that, and that H&H is in fact bolstered! You also know that the example you have posted here is the weakest type of double rifle action made, if it weren't bolstered! That is, if the action "type" is the only criteria for decideing which is strongest. But you also know that is not all that is required to decide if an action is strong enough for double rifle duty! The H&H you show is a bar action sidelock, and as such, if it weren't bolstered,and that was the only thing reccomending it then it would be inferior!

The fact that it is an H&H Royal, with what appears to be a Webley action,is it's first reccomendation, and Knowing what I know about H&H rifles,it most likely has a hidden third fastener, and is perfectly heat treated, and though you didn't notice it, it is bolstered. The bolester is very long, and wide, and surrounds the milling cut for the forward bedded main spring in the BARR. If this bolster only came down 3/8" or so from the barrel,of the barr action side lock, then it would be very weak, indeed. H&H, however had more know how that that, and completely surrounded the barr pit needed for the spring. The bolster needed for a box lock, or back action side lock doesn't need to be as wide as it does for this barr action side lock. The bolster on this H&H is made so the amount of steel that has to be taken out of the barr for the spring,is surrounded by the bolster, and the bolster is four or five times the area, of a bolster needed for a box lock, or a back action sidelock!

Simply looking at a double gun , be it rifle or shot, from the outside is not enough to make the case for it's stringth, or weakness! Nither does the outside measurement give a true accessment of it's stringth without knowing the heat treatment, and how the fasteners are made. I'm afraid you haven't made your case for how weak you think the Merkel is, with this example. I have a sneaking suspicion you have never owned a Merkel double, shotgun, or rifle, and are simply going by what you have been reading on the net by folks who have something to sell!

I have owned a lot of German doubles, of all configurations,drilling, verling, S/S, and O/U, doubles, shotgun, cape guns, and rifles, and I find them them be absolutely solid in every way! That includes the Merkels!

It is my opinion that there is a lot of wind coming out of an empty cave on this string, and I don't mean that toward you personally, but in general, on both sides of this issue. IOW plain old

The fact is, nobody has shown me a verifiable case showing the Merkel actions to be anything but top quality, as far a stringth goes. now if you guys want to talk finish, and hand engraveing, or any decoration, then I'll certainly agree with you in a heartbeat. I collect Westley Richards doubles, and they are fine, but they will not kill a Buffalo any deader than a Merkel, Barella, Kittner,or Haffner! Addtionally, they are not any better regulated, nor are they more accurate, they just cost more, that's all!

I just bought a new flack jacket, so fire away!

Mac, Mac, you're off on a tangent regarding the H&H and you're missing my point (which isn't hard to do given my response to RIP's points)... my only point regarding the H&H is that there are no "visible" bolsters on the frame (which is one of the criteria people typically (visually) associate with a DR "suitable" frame.) I was trying to get an answer beyond the obvious aesthetics that we associate with what people expect to see in a DR frame.

Everyone seems to have a different opinion on what makes an action suitable for a DR vs SG, i.e.: "SG actions aren't suitable for DRs, that DR is built on a shotgun action, etc...one is stronger than the other, bla, bla, bla."

Understand, I'm not picking on the Merkel action... RIP says they're made on DR actions - i just want to know how he came to that conclusion, and challenged him with my points to prove it - rather than just perpetuating hearsay.

My only question is (without pride or prejudice towards the Merkel) and continues to be, what criteria are mutually exclusive to DR actions, vs shotgun actions... that's all i want to know.

I'm not picking a fight - just want to know how someone thinks that they can look at an action and determine how strong or weak it is.

So, if you know specifically "what criteria are mutually exclusive to DR actions, vs shotgun actions" - then please, let me know.

PS -Your suspicion is sending you up the wrong tree. I'm a shotgun guy at heart and ahve owned some Merkels over the years - but only the goo, old, hand-made ones

new_guy,
I am off work now and don't plan any homework on Merkels. Just some comments that relate to my gleanings on Merkels over the last few years:

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
re: 1800's-1900's - We're not talking about individually made guns, from a small MAKER with the same name that represents the firearms PRODUCER they are today, and merkel at the time your talking about was a gun maker, not a gun producer.

The Merkel brothers started up their gun production business in 1898, in Suhl, Germany, said to be the traditional home of the worlds finest arms makers back to the fourteenth century, whatever they were making back then.

They were the first good ol' boys to "mass produce" stack barrel o/u shotguns. In 1914 they added sxs double barrel shotguns to the lineup.

Bartle Bull wrote of German settlers in Tanzania with their Merkel .470 NE double rifles, but maybe this was an historical inaccuracy. If anyone can set me straight on this then let me know.

Same name, different world.
To clarify my point a Franchi Monte Carlo Imperial Deluxe shotgun is not the same gun that is made by Franchi today. Those guns were built when Franchi was still a small MAKER. Rigby used to make guns in London, but they aren't the same as the guns made in California.

I think you are going too far astray in mentioning the ways of Kalifornicators as a comparison for Merkel practices. Not the same at all.

The refrence to 5-8 years was specifically for the calibers they are producing today the big ones... as noted in my last paragraph... sorry, i should have been more specific in my first refrence.

The 140-2 and 140-2.1 didn't start importation to USA until 2000. Some others were coming in in 1994. Merkel has been offerring all kinds of calibers and configurations icluding sxs&o/u doubles, cape guns, drillings, single shot break action rifles&shotguns for decades, some of these for more than a century. I don't know all the specifics, but there is basically pre-coldwar stuff, coldwar stuff, and post coldwar stuff.


But your enthusiastic response sounds convincing, so enlighted me (I'm always willing to learn) with knowledge of Suhl makers and show me a merkel pre-war 470 sxs that remotely resembles what they are making today, or more specifically a mass-produced or cataloged pre-war merkel 470 on an action that's remotely similar to the one we're debating here.

Don't believe there were ever any mass produced Merkels. They all require hand fitting and regulating after the CNC and EDM portion of the manufacture is done. Of course these techniques did not exist a few decades ago when Merkel was building there guns completely old-style. Even the old Army-Navy British double rifles were hardly assembly line detritus. Fine guns to this day they are, and maybe the old equivalent of a Merkel today.

Better yet, I'd like to see a Merkel 470 with ejectors from 1930,40,50, or 1960 - again that looks like the gun they're offierng today... since they don't seem to offer them now... wonder why they used to offer them in all the sxs 470s they used to make, but decided not to when GSI started importing them?

They still offer ejectors today if you want to pay another K and deal with the factory. Heck they offer whatever you want in the way of sidelocks, engraving, wood custom fitted, and many other calibers, etc.

As to the "differences" I noted above, it has nothing to do with barrel construction... i'm asking if anyone can specifically define the characteristics mutually exclusive to actions suitable for shotguns and the same for actions suitable for double rifles.

Yes, the Merkel 140's are chopper-lump or demi-bloc barrels, as opposed to the mono block unit with the barrels sleeved in. There are arguments for both types, I just know I like the chopper-lump technique.

The action is an Anson&Deeley boxlock and the mechanism and lockup is the same in a best quality shotgun like Merkel makes. Merkel has different size actions tailored for the cartridge or guage.

Metallurgy and bulk factors pretty well fix the possibilities with such a standard mechanism.

look what you get with a 140:
A&D boxlock
Greener cross bolt as third fastener
Purdey double lump fasteners
Bolstered watertable (or whatever you call it)
sideclips (sort of a fourth fastener, mainly decorative)
scalloped or fancy back receiver fiitted precisely to wood
cocking indicators. etc.
... And mine shoots a 4 shot group of 1.6" center-to-center at 100 yards, with my .470 NE handloads.


The Point is (I believe) that Merkel was producing shotguns on today's 140-type action long before they offered a commercially available 470 or a 500 on it. Thus i deduce that the 470 on today's 140-type action did not preceed the 20-gauge shotgun (that statment is subject to RIP's forthcoming research.)

Sure, Merkel made shotguns before they made double rifles, and that goes back to 1898.

So, how is it that you deduce that 20-gauge shotguns are made on frames designed for a 470?

I deduce that whether you are going to make a shotgun or a double rifle, you must start with a block of best quality steel and start making chips.

Merkel makes the best quality possible in either of these configurations, even if they are the same actions basically. Get out your calipers or do some destructive testing on some Merkels. I don't care to.

The point is, Merkel double rifles are not mono blocked shotgun actions with the barrels sleeved in. The heart of the double rifle is the lumps. The watertable and hinge pin are critical too, in the receiver, but the rest is accessorization mainly.

If a Merkel shotgun and a Merkel double rifle share some of the same accessories, that tells me they are from the same fine family, and both hell-for-stout.

quote:

If a Merkel shotgun and a Merkel double rifle share some of the same accessories, that tells me they are from the same fine family, and both hell-for-stout.

Thank you. So we agree that they are both made on strong actions, and not that the shotguns are made on actions designed for DRs?

There are very few people in this country that know enough about how double rifles are built to give adequate information on buying them.

George Caswell and JJ Perodeau of Champlin Arms are at the pinnacle of double rifle knowledge in the USA. I have talked to Griffin and Howe, Rigbys, Hallowell and Co and others and believe no one knows more than the folks at Champlin arms.

The bottom line is that Champlin arms won't sell you a new Merkel because compared to the guns made before the war they are crap, with cartoony engraving. I have been told this by both the folks at Champlins, Westley Richards, and Hallowells.

I think for $8500 a guy should get a rifle he wants to shoot. If your $8500 is only worth a Merkel to you then buy a merkel. Mine is worth a Blaser S-2 or a Krieghoff (both of which have push to cock devices and no safetys). You could also get a Italian, Belgian, or Spanish small firm gun for the same money. And you could definatly get a used German or English gun for that much.

If your going to spend $10K on a rifle you might as well fly into Oklahoma and see them, as they have about 50 in stock. I am partial to Tuetonic guns, but would never buy a newer Merkel of any design.

I own one double rifle right now and it's a Blaser S-2. I also liked the Krieghoff, but since you can change calibers in the S-2 for another $3500 it one out. My blaser is a 470 NE, and I bought it used for $8500 from a bear guide who never shot it. I like the push to cock feature. It and the Krieghoff are the two safest rifles in the world. Mine is a Luxus and has a little engraving and very pretty wood.

I am not an expert on double rifles. I thought about buying a over and under used Borovnik or a Chapuis. I liked the Blaser scope mount and sights the best, and adding to it the push to cock feature made it best for me. Though you may dissagree and wish to purchase something else.

Also the Blaser has a Titanium nitrate barrel bluing. The same as all there other Blaser barrels. This is really tough and a little 0000 steel wool will take off most scratches and rubs and leave 100 percent of the bluing.

I never liked the way the Merkel felt on my shoulder. Everyone is different. Don't drop $8500 into some gun dealers bucket until you have played with more than one double rifle.

good luck,

D99

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:

quote:

If a Merkel shotgun and a Merkel double rifle share some of the same accessories, that tells me they are from the same fine family, and both hell-for-stout.

Thank you. So we agree that they are both made on strong actions, and not that the shotguns are made on actions designed for DRs?

Sure, Merkel made shotguns before they made double rifles, but they have been doing both for a long time.

Some of those Merkel shotguns do LOOK like they are made on double rifle actions though ...

D99,

Salesmen will put down the competition.
I'll agree the cartoon African fauna on the 140-2.1 is a joke (so save $1000 and get the 140-2 or 140-A), but that is the only thing I agree on with you.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Merkel shotguns may be built on double rifle actions.

Merkel double rifles are not built on shotgun actions.

Now you are swallowing the Merkel marketing spin hook, line and sinker!

So Merkel has been making shotguns for years, then one day they start making double rifles on the same action, and suddenly Merkel fans proclaim, "Merkel shotguns are made on a double rifle frame." Yeah, right.

500groans of gas:

Merkel has been making both shotguns and rifles for much longer than just since 2000 when the 140-2 and 140-2.1 arrived for the U.S. market.

They know how to make an action for either use.

Think about Rigby of Kalifornia using Merkel shotgun actions to mono block the barrels onto.

Think of Merkel using chopper lump forgings to put their rifles together with.

There are some marketing idiocies involved, like cartoon animals for engraving, but the simple arabesque, coin finished receivers are available for 1K less.

The .375 H&H and .416 Rigby doubles are idiocy, but speak for the strength of the actions anyway, and a lot of other makers have made such a faux pas, including H&H.

Get over it. Merkel double rifles are strong.
Their marketing strategies and success have brought out a lot of lies from the competition.

You are a lawyer aren't you? You know all about lies don't you?

You have sure evidenced it in these forums quite frequently.

quote:

You also know that the example you have posted here is the weakest type of double rifle action made, if it weren't bolstered! That is, if the action "type" is the only criteria for decideing which is strongest. But you also know that is not all that is required to decide if an action is strong enough for double rifle duty! The H&H you show is a bar action sidelock, and as such, if it weren't bolstered,and that was the only thing reccomending it then it would be inferior!

MacD37,
If you look at the pins, you'll realize that the H&H pictured is not a bar action sidelock but a back action sidelock.

When I called H&H to sort out the details of my 500/450 they affirmed that all H&H double rifles use the back action sidelock. (Gunmakers being gunmakers, I'd never be so categoric myself...) Yes, Holland double rifles use the hidden third fastener that Purdey patented in the 1880s, too. Mine, made in 1904 has the bolstered action as well.

An interesting thread. I'd listen to the gunsmiths and real gunmakers before I bought a modern double rifle and recall, in this context, what Chapuis said to me in 1983 when I inquired about having a .375 double made to take to a post in South Africa: (rough translation) "... make only a 9.3x74R because larger calibers do not give satisfaction from the point of view of longevity (of the rifle!)" Chapuis seems to have overcome those weaknesses since, maybe....
Regards, Tim

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
IMHO, the new Rigbys are a disgrace to an old and established name in the gun industry...A cheap immatation of a fine rifle...The bean counters at their best...

Of course, nothing done today could possible equal or exceed anything done 100 years ago.

Having seen the list of craftsmen (most ACGG members) working for Rigby's, I cannot put too much stock on the accusations.

Gentlemen:
As I posted earlier, I was able to trade into a Rigby 500/416 for about $10K. It arrived today and is lovely. This gun is hell for stout plus it has ejectors and I can't imagine it not outlasting me. I just could not pass up the deal! I'll report back how she shoots when my Superior ammo shows up. Thanks for the education about doubles.

quote:

said to me in 1983 when I inquired about having a .375 double made to take to a post in South Africa: (rough translation) "... make only a 9.3x74R because larger calibers do not give satisfaction from the point of view of longevity (of the rifle!)" Chapuis seems to have overcome those weaknesses since, maybe....
Regards, Tim

They claim to be today's largest DR mfg, and definitely make calibers larger than 375. And I'd think 22-years is a sufficient amount of time to work out any design issues.

Searcy did it in less than that, right?

Ok you "Old Salts" of DR opine,

Here's some food for thought. Recently I have gone on a DR buying binge and have figured this out plenty good - you have to decide what your ultimate goal is for the rifle; collecting / investing, hunting, target shooting, all of the above... here are emy buying habits:

1) HUNTING: Get the gun that you can shoot and shoot well. Searcy, Rigby, WR, H&H, Merkel, K-hoff whatever - proficient shooting of the gun is really what matters when it comes to hunting.
2) OVERALL: Searcy is the best overall value for "shooters" period: Custom fit, modern materials, accurate as hell, and, well, what the heck, MADE IN USA!, oh, and a great price to boot.
3) Serious Investing: If you want a shootable investment, forget K-hoff, Merkel or anything else that weren't made beteween the wars. That gets even narrower by selecting from 1 of three brands: H&H, Rigby, WR (if you want to play it safe). Yes, Army Navy, Coggs..., etc are nice but the big three aforementioned - for solid investments.
4) Collecting: Vintage, fun to shoot, safe buys: any solid English double made whenever is good to go, provided that it checks out - you don't know
S#!t, so have a pro check it out thoroughly, or you might get burned (no offense to any professional DR gunsmiths reading this).
5) Calibers, calibers, calibers! Pick one above .40 and you'll be in the game for DG: 470 is the easiest to get ammo for: can you say FEDERAL!

That's my .02

JW

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Merkel has been making both shotguns and rifles for much longer than just since 2000 when the 140-2 and 140-2.1 arrived for the U.S. market.

They know how to make an action for either use.

Think about Rigby of Kalifornia using Merkel shotgun actions to mono block the barrels onto.

Think of Merkel using chopper lump forgings to put their rifles together with.

There are some marketing idiocies involved, like cartoon animals for engraving, but the simple arabesque, coin finished receivers are available for 1K less.

The .375 H&H and .416 Rigby doubles are idiocy, but speak for the strength of the actions anyway, and a lot of other makers have made such a faux pas, including H&H.

Get over it. Merkel double rifles are strong.
Their marketing strategies and success have brought out a lot of lies from the competition.

You are a lawyer aren't you? You know all about lies don't you?

You have sure evidenced it in these forums quite frequently.

Ron,

Your argument strategy is limited to obfuscation and speculation. Those are not techniques used by intellectually honest persons.

You allege that Merkel builds double shotguns on a double rifle frame. I call B.S. So prove your assertion. I am waiting...

quote:

Originally posted by D99:
There are very few people in this country that know enough about how double rifles are built to give adequate information on buying them.

I never liked the way the Merkel felt on my shoulder. Everyone is different. Don't drop $8500 into some gun dealers bucket until you have played with more than one double rifle.

good luck,

D99

D99, I'm happy for you that you are in love with your Blazer,and that you spent your $8500 the way you wanted! Everyone should have the rifle he wants, and it is evident the Blazer is the one you wanted! However down gradeing another make that you don't have any experience with simply because someone told you what you wanted to hear, in not a proper attitude, IMO! This little exchange has only served to prove what I've always said, "Anyone who tells you Merkels are not good, is someone who wants to sell you something else, or simply doesn't know all he claims to know!"

Your statement that the Merkel did not feel right to you is not surprising, if the Krieghoff, and Blaser are to your likeing! The two you chose as a fit for you personally are absolutely unique in the way they handle, and ballance,and are different from every other double rifle I have ever handled, and you can believe me when I tell you I have handled, shot, and owned a lot of double rifles over a period of about 47 yrs since I bought my first one, in 1958. The blazer is fine if it handles to your likeing, but to me they feel like a railroad crosstie! The Merkel, OTH, balances exactly like my Westley richards doubles, and points perfectly for instinctive shooting. I find, on the two you chose, I have to look for the sights, when shouldering the rifle,and the grip area is shaped funny, and doesn't fit my hand! In short, the two choices you made do not fit me well, and the cocking system is something that may get "ME" killed, if I needed a quick fire fight with a close quarters lion, where three or four shots might be needed, to get the job done! I guess that's why they make bot types, not everyone likes the same double rifle! Hell, some don't like ANY double rifle, and prefere a K-Mart M700, or Wal-Mart Weatherby, push feed!

Mac,
Thanks for the sensible post.

Dan,
Obfuscation and speculation is tit for tat with you. Your kind of talk. That is all. Now, I don't give a hoot what else you think. Enough pig wrestling!

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:


So, if you know specifically "what criteria are mutually exclusive to DR actions, vs shotgun actions" - then please, let me know.

PS -Your suspicion is sending you up the wrong tree. I'm a shotgun guy at heart and ahve owned some Merkels over the years - but only the goo, old, hand-made ones

New_Guy, I don't think there is a difference that can be seen with the naked eye, in most cases. The fact is if a company is makeing double rifles, and shotguns, it simply stands to reason the hardening of quality steel used in makeing the action is going to be for the one that needs it most! What I mean by that is no factory is going the make the same size action hardened differently for their double rifles, than for shotguns. They will be made strong enough to handle which ever barrel set is fitted to it! This is what I, and others mean by the Merkel shotguns are made on rifle actions, not the other way round! A company that makes only shotguns doesn't have to harden the steel the same way it does if rifle barrels are to be used on the same action.

The Merkel was not, as you say, "DESIGNED FOR A 470NE"! In fact, it was not designed by Merkel at all! It was designed by Anson& Dealey.

You speak of Merkel as before the war, and after the war. There is another period that you fail to mention, and that is the period when the Soviets controled all makers in east Germany. Since products of the makeing of firearms in the USSR was not importable to the USA till the wall came down,the only thing we got were cheaply made! This is not because the makers didn't know how to make them properly, but the fact that all their machinery, and even hand tools were worn out, and there was no PROFIT incentive to replace the tools to make anything better! To top this off many Merkel shotguns were made under the SIMPSON, and other names as well, because the soviets lumped the names all together as one industry in the USSR ruled East Germany.

Once the wall came down, and a more capitalist society was formed, and new machines, and tools were available, the quality went up by leaps and bounds! The rifles made by Merkel today, are made the same way as every other maker of double rifles in the world today. The CNC is used to do the hog work that took so much unproductive time, leaving more time to do the hand work. This is not unique to Merkel but is ustilized by every maker today. The reason a Merkel can be sold at the price they are is, the cost of labor in east Germany is still low, and the import taxes into the states are low for former Soviet countries, and high for free world countries. The people who have the old names simply charge high prices that are, IMO, not justified, for the name engraved on their product! One example is a Necktie sold in H&H store in the UK, sells for $250 US, because it has H&H woven into the faberic. The fact is those ties are made in TIWAN, just like an over priced $30 tie in Neiman Marcus! The fact is all the makers could sell their best grade double rifles for $10K to $12K and still make a profit, if it weren't for the snobb appeal.

The doubles that are the most machine made are the Blazer, and the Krieghoff, and their ballance, and handleing is,IMO, far inferior to Merkel.

Snobbs will always put down anything that is not what they have. They will find this, and that so-called "REASON" why their choice is best, and someone else's is junk! Price is not always an indication of the quality of a product!

I don't think anyone need be afraid of the Merkel's stringth. It will still be shooting when you garnd children are teaching their grand children to shoot with them.

Mac,
Well said. You have the patience of Job. Thanks.

As I understand it, the USA has no "national firearm proofing" organisation unlike most European countries..I would assume that a Merkel double rifle sold anywhere in Europe is going to be proofed as a double rifle and not as a shotgun. In practice this proof firing usually far exceeds pressures normally likely to be encountered.

Things get a little less clear cut when you talkabout acions being shipped to the USA and used to build rifles...Personally, I think I would stick with a proofed rifle of known quality...

Regards,

Pete

Let's see......my $7400 Merkel 470 has gone "bang" every time for its first 100 or so rounds, still is tight...overly so, if anything, shoots most any of my reloads as good as I can at 75 yards offhand. I'm happy. I'll let you know after the next 100 or so rounds...and after I collect my buff next year. While I enjoy looking at and fondling those nice British works of art....I'd probably $hit myself if I had to drag it over the ground crawling for my buff. And yes, Searcy's are very nice rifles...but they are $2000+ more than the Merkel....last time I checked that's a kudu and gemsbok in SA. I'm not cheap, but nothing wrong with my Merkel so far. I'm with RIP.

Gary B.

Regardless of whether someone thinks the Merkel action is strong, it remains that it was set up for a shotgun and later converted to double rifle use.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete E:
Things get a little less clear cut when you talkabout acions being shipped to the USA and used to build rifles...Personally, I think I would stick with a proofed rifle of known quality...

The product (tort) liability laws being what they are in the USA, anyone going into the trade making rifles of any kind, with anyone's actions will be DAMN sure to make a safe product or they will soon be facing financial ruin, and possibly criminal charges as well.

We do not want nor need a Government run proof house, as it is just what an anti-gun Federal Administration would need to effectively shut down all firearms production and imports.

Just keep raising the bar until no one can meet it.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Regardless of whether someone thinks the Merkel action is strong, it remains that it was set up for a shotgun and later converted to double rifle use.

How could you possibly claim to know so without access to Merkel's design, testing, and manufacturing documents?