The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 458 Lott Accuracy??Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| One of Us |
I have never owned nor fired a 458 Lott. I am very interested in what kind of accuracy is achieved from the straight case? I know it's a dangerous game in your face cartridge, but I'd like to explore its utility for plains game. I have been very interested in the performance and accuracy people are getting with Michaels 458 B&M cartridge with everything from 258gr to 500gr bullets. I wonder if the Lott would achieve the same level of 1 MOA accuracy with the 258gr and 300Gr CEB's. If so, It would definitely be a canidate for a one gun safari. Sent from my iPhone | ||
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At least with the limited shooting I've done with mine, I'd say my 458 Lott is capable of about 1.5 inch 3 shot groups. With a bit more experimentation, I think 1 MOA groups would be obtainable; in fact, I've shot 1 MOA groups with it but not consistently. Bullets used have been Woodleigh Weldcores and Hornady bullets of the 500 grain variety at non woosy load levels. | |||
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| One of Us |
From a rest, off the bench, at 50 yards they all all very tight touching with nothing left in between. Very accurate. Guns and hunting | |||
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| Administrator |
Accuracy is not limited by case or caliber. If the rifle is well made, and uses accurate bullets, it will shoot below an inch without any problem. We have never built a 458 Lot, but have built many rifles in large calibers. And every single one has shot 0.5 inch groups or better with some loads and our own Walterhog bullets. Many factory made rifles are incapable of this sort of accuracy. Some will be lucky to shoot 1.5 inch groups on their best day. | |||
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| One of Us |
As above. However, I am not sure how you would go with the very light bullets like the 258gr and 300Gr CEB's you mention. Also, big bores with small case capacity in relation to the bore size, like 458 win/Lott, usually different weight bullets to very different points of impact. With a good barrel it will be usually vertical. I have seen both 458 Win and 450 Ackley have 10 inches between 350 and 500 grain Hornadys. | |||
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I think that recoil is more the determining factor in the accuracy of the big bores. Both in how well you can control it and the number of rounds that you can shoot in load development. I put the first first three rounds from my 458 Win Mag into a clover leaf at 50 yards, using some 300 grain 45.70 bullets that I had on hand.  Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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A well built Lott will easily do 1MOA. Offhand at 50 yards my norm is 1 inch. Members on this site have seen me double tap a pig at 135 yards offhand with a o/u double. It wouldn't be my first choice at 200 yards but if you've payed your dues and practiced it isn't the worst choice. They used to shoot 1000 yard matches with 45-70s. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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IIRC Jack Lott wanted a case that tapers from belt to case mouth. Can anyone confirm the Lott is parallel sided minus the brass thickness from about 2" to the case mouth? Does a ghost shoulder aid in accuracy? If the Lott had a ghost shoulder would it be more accurate by aligning better in the chamber at the ghost shoulder? Would anyone prefer a chamber with extra slop in it to ensure feeding vs a tight and accurate chamber? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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that i have! big bores, if the shooter does they part, tend to be very accurate.. and consistent -- the precision part comes from the loose nut on the trigger opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Spot on Jeffeosso! I've never owned or shot a 45 caliber rifle that wasn't very accurate and that includes 300 yards. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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| One of Us |
I did a fair amount of hunting with the 350 grain TSX in the 458 Win. That was a multipurpose test; partly to see what bullets of that weight would do on Buffalo, partly to see how far a lighter and faster bullet would go toward making a .375 out of a .458 and partly to cut down on recoil for days of culling when round counts were heading toward 100. I would say that it was a roaring success in every category. With a suitable light bullet, the .458 could be a real contender for a one rifle safari, and wouldn't blink about shooting another few dozen buffalo with them. Mine is a Lott now, and everything still applies. | |||
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| one of us |
This is one cartridge that I have quite a bit of experience with and have assembled dozens and dozens of them. I have shot a number of these Lott's that we built to 300 yards off a solid bench rest with a target scopes. When assembled properly and loaded with a tailored load they will shoot sub MOA as long as you can sit behind them. With lighter bullets the trajectory is close to a 30-06 with 180gr bullets when zeroed for 150 yards and then again at 300 yards. The Semi Spitzer 500gr Swift zeroed for 200 yards will drop 13"-14" at 300 yards depending on the velocity. For a number of years I used a Vern Junke machine to sort bullets for certain load development and out of curiosity spun many 458 Caliber jacketed bullets. Statistically these were all over the page when it came to internal dimensions being questionable, that is if you believe the Junke. Some don't but at any rate I have yet to find even some of the more complex steel jacket bullets that wouldn't shoot well with a good load of powder. The Woodleigh 500gr FMJ and Soft point grouped amazing well and have always killed with authority . I have shot many 6 shot groups at 100 yards with 3 softs and 3 solids that all fell into the same .750 to .800 group. Some fluke groups were even smaller. Most of the barrels we used were Krieger with a few Douglas thrown in for grins, all had 1-16 Twist, neither barrel manufacture was better than the other in regard to accuracy when chambered properly. All shot 500gr semi spritzers and flat nose bullets point-on to 300 yards with zero signs of being unstable. Most 500gr loads were loaded between 2200 to 2250fps. The longest shot that I am aware of taken by a client with one of our Lott's was by the late Gary Levitz in Tanzania. Over the length of a long Safari Gary and his PH kept running into and continually scaring a big Sable bull in a wicked patch of bush. The Sable gapped it whenever the team showed up to look for him. Towards the end of the hunt they had stopped to have lunch near the edge of this morass that the Sable called home in route to another destination to try and fill one last buffalo permit. The chop box had been on the ground for a while the deviled eggs eaten and yellow leg sandwiches turned to crumbs when Gary looked across the burned grass and there stood the very Sable bull gazing into the trees 3 football fields away. His Lott was 2 feet away, his light rifle in the cruiser 25 yard away. While the PH was trying to get the attention of the trackers still napping in some shade 50 yards away Gary grabbed the Lott and settled into a prone position. Having shot that rifle to 300 yards in Texas he knew where to hold and dropped the bull in his tracks at 300 plus paces before anyone really knew what was going on. I have that mushroomed 500gr Woodleigh soft nose still in my possession as Gary gave it to me at the SCI convention 5 months later. Anyone that says a Lott is not accurate beyond 100 yards hasn't shot one very much. | |||
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Everybody that I know either sold, put away, or junked their Vern junky machines. I am not man enough to shoot my Lott off the bench. My Grandson can shoot 1.5" groups offhand at about 60yds. | |||
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Butch you know I know some accuracy smiths that wouldn't eat a bowl of Ice Cream unless they 1st spun it on a Junke. I got mine at a good price and used it for about 5 years on and off and just couldn't conclude it was giving me any bullet insight on the rifles I put together. When you spun a 500gr FMJ the needle wanted to fly off the devise. Radical bunches shot just as well as those that spun well, go figure. I built a Lott for a young man in Texas that had never pulled the trigger on one. I took it and the test targets to a Dallas SCI convention to show them the results. They were all excited about the whole project until I pulled out the targets. Softs and Solids combined in 1-1/8" groups laying out on the table got nothing but a frown, I sensed the wheels had just fallen off the wagon. The dad looked at the son and said " I'm sure Mr Echols can re-barrel the rifle to get it to shoot better" ?????? excuse me. I replied that "no, Mr Echols wasn't going to re-barrel anything, but would, at an additional cost do further load development if they wanted to see if I could find a more accurate load" They agreed and I did the requested but not until I asked them "before I do anymore load work I needed to know how small an elephant they planned to shoot as I have sat on a dead bull elephant and found them to be fairly large ? " Do you need a sub minute Lott, No but its nice to have and put together correctly will certainly shoot very well | |||
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So did BR shooters quit using the Juenke? When I was ready to buy one Verne had quit making them. | |||
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I own and have owned several rifles from .375 bore to .458 bore, and most shot sub moa well past 20 rounds. Why the Lott would be any different? | |||
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You are correct. I can shoot my Lott off hand and think it would do a good job on an animal. I'm just not going to sit on a bench and throw ammo down range. I know there are Supermen out there that shoot them off of the bench all day long because they said so. I've shot a lot of BR and the guys that I know,bullet makers included, said they couldn't prove the advantage of the Vern Junke machine. I'm sure that it is a fine machine. I certainly believe that a sub MOA Lott is possible if you have the right person behind the trigger. Mr Echols, I don't know if you remember Pat Byrne. He is a rancher in south Texas and a Hall of Fame BR shooter. Pat took his Lott to the bench and shot about 40 rounds at one sitting. He came away from that with some real physical problems. | |||
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Do you mean like these 1000 yard groups?  Or maybe these groups from two different 416 Rems?   So again I ask, what is different about the Lott in terms of not maintains accuracy after 20 rounds? | |||
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  You are ignorant AND rude. You made an obviously stupid statement about the Lott. However, instead of calling you out, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and asked you to clarify. Twice. You are not able to clarify anything because YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. As such, I will now completely disregard anything you have to say. Its no wonder you are so despised on this forum......... | |||
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I really appreciate all the posts. It's becoming clearly evident that the cartridge will be more accurate than I will in the field and probably at the bench. I see no reason why it couldn't be used to shoot the lighter weight bullets for smaller game at longer ranges. BTW, I consider 250yds to be a pretty darn long shot for me. So in all actuality, if the gun will hold 1.5-2 MOA at that distance, it's good to go and then some. Mr. Echols, I was secretly hoping you would chime in on this thread. I have seen your large bore rifles achieve some really outstanding results. Including your 404-375. I have long been a fan of the magic you can work on a Model 70. I'd give anything to have you work over the Classic Model 70 375 H&H action I have set aside for this 458 Lott dream build. The attention to detail regarding floorplate retention(I saw the video where you shot the rifle without a spring in the latch), magazine box dimensions, and especially feeding! See video here: https://youtu.be/sAr7d3acMYo I am a snob when it comes to feeding and that video shows you got what it takes! Of course there are a plethora of other goodies you do to squeeze every bit of quality out of the rifle. Awesome! Are most of the reamers for the 458 Lott made to SAAMI specs or is there an optimal reamer design out there? Recipe for accuracy: good barrel, good install, good ammo, and good shooter(and good chamber design?). Sent from my iPhone | |||
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| Moderator |
the dang of it is, george can shoot, very well ... i've seen him with my own rifle --- but, he can also be considered a proof of my loose nut on the trigger comment opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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My reamer was made by Hugh Henriksen and is actually marked 450 Watts unlike the current SAAMI call out my reamer has a .459 throat OD and has a .450 length cylindrical throat and 1-1/2 degree lead angle per side. It is nothing really special but does allow more free-bore than the current spec chamber. Running a Lott or Watts reamer into a standard 458 Win will work fine if you have enough magazine length. Some of these conversions work fine, some Ok and others are a sad waste of time and money. Most factory magazine boxes are beat to pieces after a couple hundred rounds and many stocks don't last into the 2nd boxed of shells. Building one to last can be a bit of a challenge. I do use a series of dies depending on the condition and make of the brass when its new. I used a lot of Winchester basic brass that I bought directly from Randy Brooks at Barnes when they had a train car supply of it, those days are long gone. I once picked up 800 Norma basic belted magnum cases and that brass was also excellent but I never could get another supply of it. I inquired to Norma a couple times but said they never sold any on the open market so I don't know where it came from before I found it. Before Don Heath passed we discussed the Lott many times and I tried to squeeze a case or ten of basic out of him but he said he preferred to keep his job. I use a Neal Jones neck bushing die for brass that has been fired and it eliminates any waste line under the base of the bullet as I only resize the base of the case just ahead of the belt and then approx. 480 of neck length. You can see and feel a very slight ghost shoulder as a result. I feel this centers the round in the chamber better than using dramatically resized case that are typical with standard Lott dies. I crimp every bullet with a Lee crimp die. Very early on I had both Swift and Woodleigh make me a many thousand 500gr FMJ's and Soft Points with a cannelure design that I liked and at a position on the bullet to allow them to be seated and crimped to 3.600 to 3.630 depending on the length of your brass, remember I have a Watts chamber length. PH Campbell Smith has used 500gr Swift A-Frames for softs and the older Hornady steel jacketed FMJ's for a 30 year career without a single complaint. Regular old round nose Solids, surprised they didn't just bounce off all those Botswana Bulls. As I stated before I have used many, many 1-16 twist barrels and really like them. I have tried a few 1-14 twist tubes and they also work just as well. Powders, man did I burn some powder and quite a few that worked well, but early on H-4895 became my go to powder for testing a new rifle. I use a 14" drop tube and have zero problems with compression even with 500gr Mono Bullets. Chet Brown fooled with the Lott quite a bit and even blew one up while testing, the notation next to that load data said "don't try this load again". The David Miller company built a few Lott's and used IMR 4320 with good success and I did as well until I ran into a couple cans from different lots that really lagged in velocity and accuracy for a couple years. I've never used it since. When Hornady got interested in offering factory loads for the Lott we traded quite bit of info back and forth for a few months. Their early ammo clocked right at 2300fps in 23 " barrels and boy did it get your attention. Like Hornady Federal, Barnes and Norma offer good factory loaded ammo. Today I have a battered shoulder and Brachial Plexitis in the worst way due to the many thousands of Lott rounds that I sent down range. I've seen it used and used it in the field enough myself to respect the Lott a great deal. At least with this cartridge I have the T shirt | |||
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| Administrator |
Why don't you do like most of us do when shooting big guns off the bench? I use one or the other of the following - dependents on what at hand. A bag full of lead shot between my shoulder and the rifle. PAST recoil pads - 2 wrapped together. Anything relatively soft between the shoulder and the rifle. | |||
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| One of Us |
I am very grateful for the above post. I am very interest in your reloading technique/tooling. I have seen a few Lott cartridges that had the "waste line" and it became apparent really fast that there was not much rotational symmetry in that area. It made want to measure bullet/case runout. It made me really consider the 450 Ackley, but I was not fond of the very minimal case taper in that cartridge. This is what really drove me to ask about the accuracy potential of the Lott. I agree that one does not need sub moa accuracy in the Lott BUT if a bad shot is made or missed, I can only blame myself. I noticed what appeared to be a ghost shoulder in your feeding video. So does the neck bushing die size the "neck" and the base at the same time or is it done in separate steps? I feel this would definitely have a positive impact on accuracy. It's essintially the same thing when reloading bottle neck cartridges, I have a .050" shim that I place between the FL sizing die and shell holder when setting up the press. It leaves a nice 50 thousandths portion of the neck untouched for better centering(at least I think it does). I am going to give the Lott a try. For now, I will have to put together the po' boy version. I hope one day, though, you will see my name on your work order list. Call me obsessed, but I can't get over how solid your rifles sound even when loading them. Referring back to the feeding video, you can hear the cartridges solid "CLICK" when loaded into the magazine. My New Haven built Classic Super Express makes more of a hollow "clack". Oh, and it only holds 3... (soft sigh). I really appreciate the time you took to share your information and experiences. Sent from my iPhone | |||
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| one of us |
Saeed I have used a dump truck load of anti recoil devises over the years both commercial amd homemade. Sissy bags in all sizes, Past pads in different thicknesses, Evo Shields. The Stinger rest, a marvel no longer made but effective that I would have to re-weld back together after the couple hundreds rounds per weld. I had a friend build a mechanical rest for me that didn't last. I built a standing rifle rest that I should have built sooner and my own variant of a Led Sled which I do use to this day. It all helps but in my case it was never enough shoulder protection over the long haul. | |||
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Saeed, As long as I have a Grandson to sight it in at the bench, I'm good to go. After attaining the age of 75yrs and having had 5 neck and back surgeries I will be good to go shooting it off hand. DArcy_Echols,I still have 2 boxes of Norma basic brass. A friend sent me 2 boxes of Hornady basic brass. I never tried the Hornady yet as the Norma works fine. | |||
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Ok, so I've been looking at barrels. I've narrowed it down to 5 manufacturers: Brux(cut rifled), Shilen(button rifled), Douglas(button rifled), Lothar Walther(button rifled), or McGowen(button rifled). I have to admit that I am leaning towards Brux, I just have no experience with them. I'm sure I am splitting hairs, but it's nice to know the opinions of those who are more experienced. Thoughts? Sent from my iPhone | |||
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| Moderator |
I've had all but the brux - so i won't opine on them i have not had ONE bad barrel from these people, as they tend to reject quickly... however, i do kind of rate them, and offer that you missed pac-nor Shilen and McGowen - my current go-to makers, as they will make a barrel as light as you ask, within reason, and they ALWAYS shoot very well. McGowen can make larger caliber barrels- shilen stops at .458. - Both are great Barrels, Shilen rules the small bore space for me, except McGowen makes GREAT AR barrels Douglas and PacNor --great barrels, great people to deal with, best value LW - really good barrels - though they tend to be highest cost opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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McGowen may make decent AR barrels, but Shilen was the top barrel at Camp Perry last year. They were first and 3rd in the Presidents 100 and set a new record winning the team trophy. | |||
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| one of us |
I have found the Lott to be as accurate as any other big bore and actually as accurate as most 270 or 30-06s in that they would shoot and inch.. I have shot a number of them, and built a number of them..My only objection is recoil which I find excessive except perhaps for off hand shooting..therefore I like the 404 and 416. I would suggest that folks that say the 458 is inaccurate are those that cannot handle that recoil. I cannot tell you how many folks I know that claim recoil isn't a factor with their gun, be it a 458 Lott or a 30-06, and how many times Ive slipped and empty into the chamber and watch them jump out of their skin. The bigger the bore the more that jump.  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Jeff, Thank you for the input. Sounds like I need to focus more on who I will have chamber the rifle, than who makes the barrel. My analytical mind always makes it hell for me to make a choice sometimes. Sent from my iPhone | |||
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I would pick a brand of Lott cases I like, buy 500 of them and have your gunsmith chamber the gun for those cases. That's one of the accuracy inhancing techniques that I use for belted magnums. Belt thickness variability directly effects headspace so you want to control that variable as well as possible. I set my guns so that the bolt just closes with light thumb pressure. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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One of Us |
Sage advice that cannot be repeated often enough...  Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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