To the group:

I'd like to put together a 50 cal african safari rifle using a 4" magnum 98 mauser action. Any ideas on the best choice for affordable reloading shooting and fun. Right now I'm considering the 500 A-Square but I am open to any ideas my buddy wants to build a 500 jeffery.

Thanks

Brad

simplest? either the wells or the asquare.

jeffe

Brad, aka PillShooter,

You'll get overwhelmed by solid info if you use the search function in this topic. Lots of guys have walked the same path and have lots of good info to share.

Cheers

Brad,

Do a search on .50 cals in this topic. You'll find lots of great ideas and great results plus a lot of trials and tribulations.

damn!

i guess the 500 a.r. (shortened blown out and improved rigby case)
510 kayser express (improved rigby based, ask idaho sharpshooter)
500 mbogo (necked up 470 mbogo)
is out

jeffeosso is right as usual...

thanks Boom Stick for the kind words.

Brad: I went with simplicity, budget, and Africa legal in my choice. Fred Wells took the 460 Wby and necked it up to 50 caliber. Called it the 510 Wells Express. I personally see no need for a belt on a DGR cartridge, so I had a reamer cut for the 510WE minus the belt. Called it the 510 Kayser Express to differentiate from other similiar.
Buy 416 Rigby cylindrical brass, buy standard available 510WE dies (no custom die expense)and FL size the Rigby case. Trim to 2.96" oal and fireform. The Rigby cylindrical is not headstamped, so your neighborhood jeweler or trophy store can engrave 510KX on the rim easily, and you can waltz right thru customs anywhere. There are no flies on either of the other two Boom Stick listed, mine was just simpler for me to package.

Please feel free to ask me here on the forum or in a PM if you would like further information.

FLA3006 has a 510 Wells, you might ask him for loading data.

regards,

Rich

PS: we are putting the barrelled action in a sporter stock I found at a pawnshop in about an hour and will be testfiring with 100gr of H4350 and a 650gr cast bullet...pray for me

via con dios rich!

Rich,
that's not a bad load.. 100gr of h4350 witih a 650gr cast... it's a STIFF load in the 500jeffe

jeffe

Nothing is simplier than the .500a2.Period.-Rob

Rob,

men of good character can agree to disagree...I must here. The 510WE dies, 3-die set, from CH4D are less than $150. Rigby cylindrical brass is about a buck a case. I cannot get as many 460Wby rounds in the Wisner magazine of my 510KX as I can 510KX loaded rounds. The reamer is the same price, except Manson and Kiff agree that no belt cut on the reamer reduces price by $35 or so. You can headspace on the neck, not the belt where you may find several .0001" production tolerances on a box of 20 from base to front of belt. Belted cases are an anachronism from the early 20th century. That is why we are not seeing the 375 Ruger with one. Ditto the WSM and RUM brass.
"No-look" loading in the heat of the hunt is also nearly foolproof. Ever push a round down with 2nd round belt behind or in front of the 1st one? Don't work.

No belt is a sign of the KISS principle...I like that

regards,

Rich

Jeffe,

yesssssssssss it is a bit on the stout side.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
,,,, That is why we are not seeing the 375 Ruger with one. Ditto the WSM and RUM brass.
....
No belt is a sign of the KISS principle...I like that

regards,

Rich

heh, or the AR rounds!! (sorry to be touting these so much)

Though i am indifferent to a belt or not.. the 550 mag and express wouldn't work without them!!

Then again, one could say the rimmed round is an anachronism from the 19th century, as well!!

Add my vote to the .500 A-Square total.

Very easy conversion of a CZ 550 Magnum. I did it (or, more accurately, had it done) and have never had cause to regret it. Although there was that one bull elephant (so far) who wasn't too happy about it.

Three down and one up without a problem. SAAMI standard (i.e., non-wildcat) ammunition, with correctly headstamped brass available from at least a few sources.

0.510" bullet, with many choices in several weights for softs and solids. Plenty of published reloading data. No problem getting 2,500 fps with 600 grain bullets, if you want it.

And no offense to the purists, but I don't get into this theoretical stuff about belt or no belt, rebated rim or not, etc. All I know is the .500A2 just flat out WORKS - and I wouldn't trade mine for any .500 out there!

question...

the a2 has a little shoulder from my understanding, can the belt be turned off and headspaced on the shoulder for the beltphobiacs???

i herby name it the 500 a-boom stick

it might need a steeper shoulder

no rebate, no belt and all the saami stuff to boot.

this might work better with a neck down to 475 for shoulder purposes...470 mbogo-boom stick???



has it been done before?

boomy,
if you turn the belt off an Asquare basic you have a rigby basic case.... ......

500 A2 super simple. Fire form 460 and off you go. My brno 602 holds 3 down and shoots like a dream.

yes i am familiar with the rigby and 460 weatherby being almost identical





the internal dimensions are where the diff show more but i am not educating you...

the benefits of the 460 is cheaper brass and stronger (not much that makes i diff)

the 500 a2 without the belt is interesting...no?

can someone tell me how much sholder the 500 a2 has and what the angle of shoulder is please (shoulder dia and neck dia)...

forming 475-500a2 would be pretty easy with the same taper and shoulder position and angle dont you think? kinda like the mbogo from a different mother.

just some mad musings from an wildcating idiot

imagine there's no belts...
it isnt hard to do-oo.

no rebates bel-ow it...
above it only crf.

immagine all the trophies
restind in peace ooo-ooo oooh

boom stick's officially lost it. Catchy tune though
Cheers...
Con

hey, i am playing with a full deck...i cant help it if it has a couple jokers in it

so the only diff in making a beltless 500 a2 is taking the belt off the reamer right???

that is if the shoulder could work for headspacing.

can the regular 500a2 work in it as long as it is headspaced off the shoulder???

in-ter-es-ting...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
hey, i am playing with a full deck...i cant help it if it has a couple jokers in it

Any update on the BS AR DGR project?

???

do you mean my 470 a.r. project?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
???

do you mean my 470 a.r. project?

Isn't that a Boom Stick 470 AR Dangerous Game Rifle? BS AR DGR?

What's the latest?

Boomie,
500 A-Square shoulder diameter: 0.568"
500 A-Square neck diameter: 0.537"
and shoulder angle 35 degrees

500 Mbogo: .575"/ .535"/35 degrees

I am treading on thin ice with the 500 Mbogo? Neck turning/reaming won't be necessary though, I guess.

Now, can anyone tell us the same specs for the proper 400 Whelen and the 10.75x68mm Mauser?

Thanks everyone for the input. It seems there are several different ideas in pushing a .510 projectile downrange fast. I think that cheap brass ie the 510KX has alot going for it. Thats why I put together my 9.3 Ashley (9.3x70R clone) using 375RUM cases. I really like the idea of something easy to start with since 50cal is all new to me. I will continue to learn from you all as the post grows.

Thanks

Brad

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
???

do you mean my 470 a.r. project?

Isn't that a Boom Stick 470 AR Dangerous Game Rifle? BS AR DGR?

What's the latest?

unfortunately making the mortgage has been a feat lately, i am on commision and i have had a couple tight months so my expendable cash has been close to zero. the next couple months should be better. i am in the residential lending industry and the fed rate hikes have put the buyers on the fence and i am new to the bizz so i dont have a lot of past clients for getting out of the adjustables. i am working hard though and hope to be in the black soon enough. dont worry i have not lost my enthusiasm for it, just the funds (for now)

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Boomie,
500 A-Square shoulder diameter: 0.568"
500 A-Square neck diameter: 0.537"
and shoulder angle 35 degrees

500 Mbogo: .575"/ .535"/35 degrees

I am treading on thin ice with the 500 Mbogo? Neck turning/reaming won't be necessary though, I guess.

Now, can anyone tell us the same specs for the proper 400 Whelen and the 10.75x68mm Mauser?

thanks for the info rip...

i guess the 500 a-boom stick is on the tall pile of notgunnadoit wildcats

the 470 version still has a smidge of relevence but the 470 mbogo is well established and does not need a twin.

bs+ar = bsar...hmmmmmm...

RIP, I knew you liked that 10.75x68. Your first comment was "it really does have a shoulder doesn't it?" Don't you think a 22"barrelled 10.75x68 with a 1" 1.5-5 scope would be a real powerhouse in a small package??? The Hoffman is a pretty sweet shooter. I probably replace that big moon sight with a finer bead to get a little more accuracy. What do you think?

Boom Stick -- good luck getting the project moving again soon!

The 500A2 makes the most sense. I am restocking my 510Wells and I also plan to rebarrel (rust in the bore), this time in A2.

Idaho Sharpshooter- No problem disagreeing with me. I'm always open to a good agruement. I however, do not agree at all about belts being a problem on DGR's. In a DGHR Give me a good belted cartridge and a sloppy chamber with stone reliable feeding anytime and I'm a happy guy. The Wells .500 is a rarely encountered custom that is in fact no better than the .500A2 and don't believe for a second that headspacing off the shoulder is any real advantage over headspacing off a belt. Thats pure baloney! I have won more than one 1000 yrd benchrest competition with Belted cases and so have many many others. Accuracy disadvantage, zero! Mag boxes holding more rounds with non-belted cases, just adjust/ make the mag box width to the right dimensions for the belted cartridge and that advantage goes away. My CZ550 holds 5 .500a2's down, do you need more? Of course, I had to spend 30 minutes to fabricate and weld a new sheet metal mag box, but what the heck that last cartridge really mattered to me. Belt override, again correct mag box dimensions make this irrelevant. Only happens in poorly designed weopons and then rarely .460 WBY cases are cheap and readily available ( even go on sale at Midway) and I've built more than one 500a2 and they were all the easiest cardtridge to get to feed reliably that I've ever encountered. I can assure you that having no belt is no advantage there. I stand by my previous statement the .500a2 is the easiest .50 to get to play, period. By the way, I have no issues with the .510 wells and glad you enjoy it. After all the point is if its big and goes boom, we generally like it.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:


Boom Stick -- good luck getting the project moving again soon!

thanks!

while commuting today i thought about that referrals from my a.r. friends can help them buy whatever their hearts desire. i can give a 20% referral fee (net of what i receive) that could be reloading equiptment dies barrels smithing and heck a handfull could be a merkel double or a hunting trip! anyway everybody knows somebody who might need a refi or purchase. sorry if it sounds like a shameless plug but it is shooting related if it goes twards this hobby p.m. me if their is any interest.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Now, can anyone tell us the same specs for the proper 400 Whelen ?

You must have read this before, but I just could not help it!
http://www.z-hat.com/smashing_the_headspace_myth.htm

the larger the diameter the more surface area so a larger cart can theoreticlly need less shoulder to headspace off. so the 500 a-boom stick could work but is it worth it??? i dunno

lb404 and Bent,
O.K. I have conceded. The 10.75x68mm Mauser is worthy. I used to think the shoulder inadequate, but now I see the light.

10.75x68 shoulder: .4803"/.4531"/27 degrees 57'29" (call it 28 degrees)
so: 0.0136" step per side

400 Whelen: .458"/.436"/17.5 degrees
so: only .011" step per side and weaker angle

It seems the 10.75x68mm with .423 caliber bullet even has thicker brass in the neck wall too, and could get extra shoulder by neck thinning. No need. Very stout and adequate as is.

Both work well for the handloader, with the proper chamber and dies to match.

I would be happy to use a 10.75x68mm for DG as long as the ammo is from reloads that have had the shoulder fully formed and sharpened by one previous firing. I would not trust factory new ammo, if I could find any.

So, indeed the 10.75x68mm is an attractive package in a 7 pound Mauser.

It is the ultimate powerhouse for a standard Mauser, requiring no weakening of the M98 by opening up the action.

It has greater magazine capacity, 4 or 5 down in the standard M98 without a drop box?

It will surpass the classic .404 Jeffery ballistics of 400 grainer at 2125 fps, by a considerable margin: 400 grainer at 2250 fps?
No worries about pressures or bolt thrust with this compact wunderkind.

Short barrels don't handicap the compact fast powder loads very much.

Light, short, powerful, high volume, accurate fire. What's not to like?

Sounds like a magic wand. A Yoda sized saber. Add one more to the list I gotta have.

May The Force be with you, as it is now with me.

so the 500 a2 without the belt has an almost identical shoulder as the 10.75x68 (a smidge bigger and steeper) with more surface area and no fireforming with all the saami stuff!!!???

sounds like the 500 a-boom stick is back on the drawing board

after all the other projects

long live the 500 a-boom stick!

better headspacing than the 400 whelen and 10.75x68!

or maybe i should name it the 500 KA-BOOM stick

Boomer,
The 500 Boom Stick has a little more shoulder than the 10.75x68mm. Go ahead. Choose to be different.

would a 500 a-2 rifle shoot the beltless version without any problems or would the preasure be too much???

anybody...

thanks for the blessing...pastor rip or do you preffer rabbi rip

my being broke keeps me out of a lot of trouble

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
would a 500 a-2 rifle shoot the beltless version without any problems or would the preasure be too much???

anybody...

You want to shoot a beltless 500 A2 in a belted chamber? That is nonsense! What else could you mean?

i was thinking if someone had a 500 a2 and they wanted to do without the belt and headspace off the shoulder instead of the belt. would they have to chop up a a2 reamer and rebarrel? also the possibility to shoot factory ammo.