quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:


A Luddite refuses to utilize or believe in technology. It’s generally viewed as being insulting.

Speak for yourself Doc.

Some of us wear the Luddite badge with pride!!!

No paddle shift cars or Blaser thingyofabob contraptions need apply!!

Old guitars, stick shift sports cars, and double rifles rule!!!

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:


A Luddite refuses to utilize or believe in technology. It’s generally viewed as being insulting.

Speak for yourself Doc.

Some of us wear the Luddite badge with pride!!!

No paddle shift cars or Blaser thingyofabob contraptions need apply!!

Old guitars, stick shift sports cars, and double rifles rule!!!

To some extent-

I refuse to own a Blaser of any sort, although I have shot one.

But I do use the Northfork bullets in my double, they work great, and are really accurate! I pick and choose what stuff I will use.

If I could afford a classic Ferrari, I'd buy one, but I'm using an older suburban (and probably will keep on as limited funds require me to spend it on hunting instead!

I consider myself a hunter first and a shooter/gun crank second, but I am not about to sell my shooter friends down the river or to refer to them as the "Tacticool" crowd.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
A "Fuddite" is akin to a Luddite.
The Fuddite is one who thinks the .458 Winchester Magnum is not capable of outdoing the .458 Lott and should always be limited to 3.340" COL.
Think fuddy-duddy Elmer Fudd.

Too funny about the .470 NE being discussed extensively in the Double Rifle forum instaed of the Big Bore forum.

I do love the .470 NE.
But we all know that this thread was started here to malign the "wildcatting" of the .458 WIN which is done all within the confines of a SAAMI chamber with SAAMI brass.

I appreciate the many responses above, both serious and humorous.
Soon as I get through doing hospital-baby-sitting duty I will have lots more fun reading and writing here.

Rip ...

Oh for pete’s sake.

The .458 win is a great hunting round. It works as is.

Sure does. Nowadays it is capable of 2200 fps with select 500-grainers within SAAMI specs.

It has less powder space in its SAAMI spec loading, so it’s not as fast as the Lott in its SAAMI spec loading.

Well of course!
But give credit to the SAAMI .458 WIN getting to within 50 fps of the .458 Lott using same 500-grain bullet at SAAMI specs.
I.E., the .458 WIN operating at 60,000 psi/3.340" COL and the .458 Lott operating at 62,500 psi/3.600".
If the .458 WIN is loaded to non-SAAMI 62,500 psi/3.600" with same 500-grain bullet, it can exceed the .458 Lott velocity.
Or you can equal the .458 Lott velocity at lower pressure with the .458 WIN.
It is all due to the H&H-style coned-up throat of the .458 WIN.
Use them both in the same Winchester M70 H&H-length action and the .458 WIN wins.

Any incremental improvement in a .458 win by long loading it can be duplicated in a Lott to a higher level than the win mag.

That is poppycock.
When both are loaded to 3.6" length, the .458 WIN throat creates effective extra case capacity and/or pressure lowering. The .458 WIN wins.
The .458 Lott cannot even be loaded as long in COL with the 500-grain TSX as with the .458 WIN, when you move up in length to the 3.8" CZ 550 Magnum box.
The .458 WIN throat engulfs the .458 Lott throat if the chambers are superimposed, from breech face to end of leade.
And what a LEADE it is! The .458 WIN wins by a LEADE from start to finish.
The .458 WIN throat is all LEADE.
Simply marvelous how well that long and gradually tapering leade works with both SAAMI COL and LongCOL.

Compare apples to apples.

I wish you would.

500-grainer velocities:

SAAMI .458 WIN: 2200 fps

SAAMI .458 Lott: 2250 fps

Non-SAAMI .458 WIN LongCOL: +2300 fps

How do you like those two apples and one orange?

The argument rightly is, does the extra 50-100 FPS make any practical difference in hunting applications?

Only for enlightenment of the dark recesses where the cockroaches of ignorance dwell.

As I recall, the time you went with Saeed to Tanzania, you didn’t use a .458 WM of any sort, and now you are preaching how it’s the one answer, only if one does all kinds of legerdemain with it?

Hell man! I was ignorant then. And I have lots of guns to blood, runs into the hundreds, and over 2 dozen of my own wildcats.
Can you not forgive me for drawing first blood ever with a .500 Mbogo?
And first African blood ever with a .395 Tatanka?
I have been shooting, hunting, and drooling over firearms techniciana for over half a century.
Now that the cockroaches of my ignorance have scurried away,
I champion the .458 WIN, both SAAMI and non-SAAMI, to counteract the Commercial Industrial Complex (CIC) conspiracy of fake news against it.

I would happily hunt elephant with a factory .458 WM. I would happily hunt elephant (and have done so) with a .470. There is no way I would even consider hunting elephant with your single feed requiring long loaded win mag rounds and then using longer loaded mag box loads for the back up shots. Having different length ammo at the same time is asking for a CF to happen.

Well, at least you show SOME common sense.
I have never advocated using "single feed" excessively long ammo for elephant hunting.
That is more of your poppycock.
Save the single-loaders for longer range needs at non-dangerous game,
and just for kicks.
An example of what I like is to use the 400-grain GSC HV loaded to +2500 fps at only 3.395" COL NON-SAAMI.
That works through the Magazine of a Ruger M77 Hawkeye with +3.4" box (about 3.42"),
or you can single-load them to protect the delicate, spitzer hollow points from battering in the magazine box.
Carry those on your belt or buttstock ammo-carrier and single-load over a magazine box full of SAAMI-COL 450-grain FN solids of brass or copper
with velocity of about 2350 fps for close-range backup if the SHTF.
Those will do anything needing doing by a solid.
Any 500-grainer in the .458 WIN will beat a 500-grainer in a .458 Lott if limited to 3.6" box.
No mixing of COL specs in the magazine, or single loading.
Similarly, a magazine box full of 450-grain TSX at 3.680" COL is simply marvelous in a CZ 550 Magnum at 2450 fps MV.
Ditto the 500-grain TSX at 3.780" COL at +2300 fps.

The factory .458 load has historically shown it is a good stopper, with Jack Lott’s issue being a factory ammo QC problem.

No, it was just bad shooting on Jack's part, he admits, if you ever read the original account circa 1959.
There are other episodes of bad factory QC, greatly exaggerated by the CIC conspiracy.

If you want to be more pointed, all a Lott is is what you want to make a win mag into.

Note: I do not want "to be more pointed," whatever that means!
Also note: The .458 WIN can be more than the equal of the .458 Lott.

It just isn’t necessary,

Spoken like a true Fuddite!
Not everything in this world is necessary.
Being "crazy" about something is very important for human happiness.

and you would be way ahead to just get whichever one you want and go hunting elephant 2-3 times

One must be allowed to choose one's own craziness.
To each his own craziness, otherwise it is just insanity dictated by another whacko.

rather than fiddling with PII on multiple rifles and spending the money there instead of on daily rates and trophy fees...

Again, spoken like a true FUDDITE.
There are car guys and there are rifle guys, and sometimes there are car and rifle guys, who if of any consequence in either endeavor,
are very wealthy. Some blokes are just elephant guys.

I am all for RIP having his fun, but you make some excellent points: nothing wrong with a .458 WM as is - making it a Lott is like making a .308 Win a .30-06 - if you don't like the .308 just get the .06 - but you won't see a practical diff. Move up to a 300 RUM, and you are talking a different story - maybe like a .470 or 500 NE.

Again, this ignores the fact that the .458 WIN LongCOL can exceed the SAAMI .458 Lott in foot-pounds of KE,
when both are used in the magazine rifle that most .458 Lotts are built on, with 3.6" box.
It can far exceed it in a 3.8" box with the long and heavy bullets. The .458 WIN LongCOL is the undeniable WINner.

Jim Carmichel used the .458 WM extensively n Africa and never found it lacking. I think he shot 80 or so buff with it, mostly on cull hunts.

Those last two sentences by AnotherAZWriter are the most informative words of the two posts copied here and commented upon by me, in red.
The rest is just kind of ho-hum or plain poppycock.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I have just started casting after I got my 470NE and I also decided to go down the PC rout and found it a lot easier.

Yes indeed, powder-coat paint is the cat's meow. Plain ol' Harbor Freight red is great to work with.
I have sworn off the grease lubes except for nostalgic purposes in the old BPCRifle, or BPCHandgun.
I have been meaning to start paper-patching for a 40-90 Sharps Bottle Necked, for nostalgia too,
but maybe a powder-coated bullet of the right size could be found for that?


I tried felt wads soaked in lube & it was a real PAI even to do 10 bullets. They also did not shoot well. At 25 meters one wad hit the paper!

My mold is for a full diameter bullet & with PC I do not need gas checks.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I've been known to use Northfork, CEB, and TSX bullets as well. In fact, it's ALL I use. Other than that, I'm a dyed in the wool Luddite!!!

Sold my paddle shift Ferrari a couple of years ago. Kept my stick shift Viper. It trips my trigger every time I drive it and it's inexpensive enough to keep on hunting!

quote:

Originally posted by srshooter:
... you are talking about throating, not cartridges.

Finally! Somebody gets it!

For $100, I gave my .458 Lott the "Winnie treatment" and it is and always will be about 100 fps faster with 450-500 gr bullets loaded long in my Ruger No 1, than the .458 Win Mag because the cartridge is and always will be .300" longer than the Win Mag. In a mag rifle with the same box and throat, they'll be the same.

If you have added the full-length, H&H-coned-up leade on top of the 2.8" chamber length,
then you can only make full use of that as a single-loader, like the Ruger No.1, or off the top of a bolt-action.
That is excessive for functional 3.8" magazine length.
But that is how CIP initially homologated the .458 Lott.
There is a Lott of slop in the throat for a load that is 3.780" long in the old CIP .458 Lott.
CIP revised theirs to match SAAMI after SAAMI finally got around to giving the .458 Lott a SAAMI standard.
In the SAAMI & CIP .458 WIN the throat is perfect for 3.780" COL with 500-grain TSX, bughole accurate at 2250 fps MV, and sub 1.5 MOA at 2342 fps MV.
In the SAAMI & revised-CIP .458 Lott, you cannot even chamber that length of a load.
It would have been perfect in the original Jack Lott .458 Lott, which has the same distance from breech face to end of leade as the .458 WIN.
It was just a .458 WIN barrel that had brass accepting part of chamber lengthened from 2.5" to 2.8".
If you can chamber a 4.1" load with the 500-grain TSX, then you have the old original CIP .458 Lott.
It is just not the same perfect combination of brass length and throat length (all leade)
for optimum velocity, accuracy, and functionality in rifles of 3.4" to 3.8" magazine length.
So I am talking more than just throats. It is about the brass length too.

The current .458 Lott was made 0.3" longer, and stuck in a rifle that was only 0.2" longer, versus the .458 WIN.
The short throated, one-and-only-ever-SAAMI-homologated .458 Lott, same as the revised-CIP version, works fine in a 3.6" box,
but sometimes you have to trim the brass shorter to make room for some bullet nose projections.
It is better in a 3.8" magazine length,
but the throat is too short to match the CIP/SAAMI .458 WIN LongCOL.
Best of all is to use the .458 Lott 2.8" brass with the residual .458 WIN throat, like Jack Lott did originally.
Then your .458 Lott can match the .458 WIN.
In that regard, it is about throats.
Those with short-throated .458 Lott rifles can fix them by just extending the throat with a SAAMI .458 WIN reamer with a non-cutting belt-stop,
to same distance from breech face to end of leade, as on the .458 WIN.


They should have used the same Winchester throat at the factory, no doubt.
Best is the .458 Lott Like Jack Built, as described above.
For some reason they tightened the throat too much on the SAAMI .458 Lott.
Maybe an over-reaction to the original CIP homologation?

I can load rounds from 4.1" long TSX 500's at about 2450 fps.....

I do not doubt that at all.
maybe even more if I really wanted to.....down to the stubbiest .458 Win Mags and so can anyone else with a properly throated Lott.

But the properly throated .458 Lott does not exist now in either CIP or SAAMI.
The obsolete, original CIP .458 Lott was like your Ruger No.1.
That may not be as accurate with my 3.780" 500-grain TSX load, and it will take more powder to get to same or greater velocity, kick harder, etc.
You can get too much of a good thing.

Now that is the clear winner, as you say! To me the extra velocity adds to the fun. I love the .458 Win just like the next guy but, all things equal, it can't outrun the Lott. I'm sure you know this!!

I am sure that a long-throated SAAMI .458 WIN can beat a short-throated SAAMI .458 Lott, if both are used with a 3.6" COL limit,
and both are allowed the same higher pressure limit of 62,500 psi, like the SAAMI .458 Lott.
I am sure that some LongCOL loads that can be loaded into the chamber of a SAAMI .458 WIN with 3.780" COL (about the limit with the 500-gr TSX)
cannot even be chambered in the short-throated SAAMI .458 Lott, even if it also has a 3.8" magazine length.
Yes it is all in the throat, that is what makes it all possible.

As for the topic at hand.....only thing I dislike about the .470 NE is not owning one....classic and classy!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
RIP,Do you shoot your rifles at all or are you still measuring them- lol?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I've been known to use Northfork, CEB, and TSX bullets as well. In fact, it's ALL I use. Other than that, I'm a dyed in the wool Luddite!!!

Sold my paddle shift Ferrari a couple of years ago. Kept my stick shift Viper. It trips my trigger every time I drive it and it's inexpensive enough to keep on hunting!

The rare rifle guy, car guy, elephant bloke, and fighter pilot all rolled into one.
Even Chuck Yeager would be jealous.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Hogbreath:
As well he shouldn't be Todd!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
crbutler,

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
RIP, I could care less what you want to hunt with.

Wrong!
You meant to say that you COULD NOT CARE LESS what I want to hunt with.
If, as you say, that you COULD CARE LESS what I want to hunt with,
that means that you care about what I hunt with.
If you do not care at all about what I hunt with,
then YOU COULD NOT CARE LESS what I want to hunt with.

This bit of intellectual weakness on your part, in communicating this simple idea, that you do not care about what I hunt with,
should make anyone of normal intelligence suspect the validity of the remainder of your reply.

If I got that wrong, then you really do care. Thanks.

As to the remainder of your latest reply: Again spoken like a true Fuddite.
(Note: Fuddite is capitalized as is Luddite, both derived from surnames, cartoon character or no.)

You speak falsely of the SAAMI .458 Lott with short throat.
What you say would only apply to the .458 Lott that Jack Lott originally built by rechambering .458 Winchester Magnum rifles without setting back the barrel,
leaving the remnant SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum leade,
staying off the belt recess and merely extending the chamber to accept brass of 2.800" length.
And that is the truth.

Don't worry, I am not totally obsessed with the .458 WIN LongCOL.
I just acquired a .416 WBY MkV DGR factory rifle.
Barrel is 24.25" long with the muzzle thread protector, 26.00" long with Accubrake installed.
Trigger is a serviceable, crisp 3.5#, right out of the box.
Dry/emtpy weight with thread protector installed is 8#12oz, two pounds lighter than my Ruger RSM Gen-II .416 Rigby!
Also the DGR is half a pound lighter than a CZ 550 Magnum .416 Rigby in Lux walnut stock
Unloaded weight of .416 Wby MkV DGR is 8#14oz with muzzle brake.
Muzzle hole diameter of brake is 0.456", about 0.020" too big.
Oh well, at least the extra 2 ounces will lighten the recoil with brake on.
It was built in 2015, probably the last of the DGR rifles from Weatherby with a Wisner-supplied Winchester African rear sight,
as in Pre-'64 M70 .458 Winchester Magnum,
that is why I had to have it.

OK, maybe I am totally obsessed with the .458 Winchester Magnum wildcatted to .458 WIN LongCOL.
I would happily call it the ".459 Winchester Increased Nitro"
if I aa had brass u youthat said .459 WIN on the headstamp.
our
RaRip .t..

quote:

Originally posted by drongo:
I would genenot (presumed to be a typo for "generally not") hunt with a round that generates this much controversy .

quote:

Originally posted by drongo:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
crbutler,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by crbutler:
RIP, I could care less what you want to hunt with.

Wrong!
You meant to say that you COULD NOT CARE LESS what I want to hunt with.
If, as you say, that you COULD CARE LESS what I want to hunt with,
that means that you care about what I hunt with.
If you do not care at all about what I hunt with,
then YOU COULD NOT CARE LESS what I want to hunt with.

This bit of intellectual weakness on your part, in communicating this simple idea, that you do not care about what I hunt with,
should make anyone of normal intelligence suspect the validity of the remainder of your reply.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I found an old photo of RIP from his military days!

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
So is RIP

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
So is RIP

Yep, I will cut no slack for that credential.
Just the opposite, in fact.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by srshooter:
... I prefer TAC to Exterminator for the "Lottsmore" and Exterminator for standard length rounds.

I found the .458/.416 Ruger when kept to within 3.340" COL liked H4895 better than AA2230, strangely enough.

Once I break 6000 fpe ... :

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
You all are violating first rule of 470 club

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Love the govt round RIP
Are you going 1000 yards like the 45-70-500?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by srshooter:
... I prefer TAC to Exterminator for the "Lottsmore" and Exterminator for standard length rounds.

I found the .458/.416 Ruger when kept to within 3.340" COL liked H4895 better than AA2230, strangely enough.

Once I break 6000 fpe ... :

The .458 WIN LongCOL with SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. chamber can get a little over 6000 fpe,
more than enough fun for me.
Your ".458 Lottsmore": Good one!

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
You all are violating first rule of 470 club

Would that be that the 470 NE is only good in a double rifle? What is this cardinal rule?
What about a Ruger No.1?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Love the govt round RIP
Are you going 1000 yards like the 45-70-500?

That would be fun, but 942 yards in a cow pasture is the best I can get to locally.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I found an old photo of RIP from his military days!

I wanted to be a fighter pilot in the USAF until they caught me squinting at the eye chart in 8th grade and stuck some spectacles on me.
"Four Eyes" was fightin' words in the 8th grade.
Maybe just as well, I might have done more measuring than shooting in a dogfight, according to shootaway.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:
So is RIP

Yep, I will cut no slack for that credential.
Just the opposite, in fact.

Rip ...

Now if you guys were engineers - you would be fans of the Blaser platform

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I found an old photo of RIP from his military days!

I wanted to be a fighter pilot in the USAF until they caught me squinting at the eye chart in 8th grade and stuck some spectacles on me.
"Four Eyes" was fightin' words in the 8th grade.
Maybe just as well, I might have done more measuring than shooting in a dogfight, according to shootaway.

Rip ...

RIP, you are too well credentialed to be a fighter pilot.



I wanted to be in the Air Farce as well but they found out my Mom and Dad were actually married. So it was NAVY for me!!!