Oct. 4, 2001:

"It would appear to me the best of the 500's would be a 416 Rigby necked up to 50 cal. Brass and bullets are readily available and it should duplicate the 460 Wby/500 and not have a belt ... I never built one, but I just might."

We of the forum proceeded to pile on and brow beat Ray for that.

I apologize.

Prophecy from Yoda Ray before he went over to the dark side.

I must admit that I really like the .505 Gibbs case design and ballistics. A 600 grain bullet puts it right where it needs to be. And the cartridges are big enough to not get mixed up with a Chapstick tube in my pants pocket.

The 500/470 Mbogo will easily move a 600-grainer at 2500 fps and that is all you can ask of a .505 Gibbs.

In fact, less is more in many ways, like 570 grains at 2450 fps in a 10.5 pound rifle that is much easier to come by, monetarily and functional-ease-wise. Nostalgia be gone!

I have played with the .505 Gibbs CZ, and forgetting the rifle's mechanical shortcomings for that cartridge, it does allow a feel for the ballistics of the cartridge and the lack of practicality issues.

Heed the prophecy of Yoda Ray before he was brow beaten. He had it right. He just gave up before blowing the shoulder out to 470 Mbogo diameter.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
And the cartridges are big enough to not get mixed up with a Chapstick tube in my pants pocket.

As Larry The Cable Guy would say "Now that's funny! I don't care who you are, that's funny, right there!!!!"

Sorry, RIP, but it sounds to me like another case of the proverbial solution in search of a problem.

The .500 A2 is its ballistic equivalent, and IMHO by far the more practical, and therefore the better, round.

Yes, isn't this the same thing as the 500A2/Wells sans belt?

it's based off dave's propeitary 3" case, and will have slightly more capacity than the weatherby based cases.

but, in a hunting rifle, within 11# or less, 600gr at 2150 (no brake) is about all most guys can take.

jeffe

I thought Dave made the case available to anyone who wanted it instead of keeping it proprietary (like the JDJ cartridges)?

ahem, the reamer for my version came Monday. The gunsmith is busy finishing up the melding of Wisner Enfield parts to my Model of 1934 Remington commercial Enfield action. I am somewhere in the vicinity of Burundi's GNP of last year, but it sure is nice to see shiny parts come out of plastic bags and go together under the Old Mans' guidance. It was interesting to see a 1.4" cylindrical blank get octagoned with an integral tapered quarter-rib for the scout scope and express sights and tapered as well. Wisner wing-style safety and QD rings as well. I have a nicely grained (for strength) but understated Walnut blank from a great-grandfathers planting just before 1900 setting to be cut and milled and carved into a classic style stock. After much deliberation, I have decided against a tasteful amalgam of Lawson thumbhole and Weatherby stock designs in favor of classic.

Off to the shop to watch things proceed for a couple of hours.

RAY WAS RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I thought Dave made the case available to anyone who wanted it instead of keeping it proprietary (like the JDJ cartridges)?

Not held as no one else, rather not made from other cases.. for example, for a 470 mbogo can not be made to spec from 416 rigby basic, but the 470 AR can be made from RUM

jeffe

Idaho Sharpshooter,
Cool.

You say yours is similar to the .510 Wells without a belt.

I have posted explicit dimensions of the 500/470 Mbogo, but no drawing, true.

Could you tell us a few specifics about your namesake cartridge dimensions?

The poopoo'ers here are just jealous.

Call it proprietary or not, but thank Dave for his 470 Mbogo design. He wants everybody to build one and buy the brass:

Quality Cartridge: formed and 2.935", 2.945" max
Jamison International: annealed cylindrical basic and 2.965" long starting out, with a "Mbogo" and a "470" stamped on the head.

Long live the 470 Mbogo.

The 500/470 Mbogo was inevitable, and on the way now.

.416 Rigby basic was available from BELL in the past, as well as Norma, which is a going concern still.

The .416 Rigby formed brass yields 470 Mbogo or 500/470 Mbogo brass with neck shortened when fire formed, and the wrong headstamp!

The two in the center are made with Jamison brass and have a .45" long neck. Eventually it will grow to a 50 caliber long neck.

Spherical lens distortion not runout, not bent cartridges.

A 500/470 Mbogo made with .416 Rigby brass has a neck no worse than that of a 500 Jeffery.

quote:

RIP: Call it proprietary or not, but thank Dave for his 470 Mbogo design. He wants everybody to build one and buy the brass

Dave gave me a sample round of his Mbogo at Camp Cooley and I just compared it with my Wells. The Mbogo essentially has a sharper shoulder moved forward, less taper, and of course no belt. It definitely has more "omph" than my Wells, at least it seems to. I suppose a 510 Mbogo would be an improvement over the A2, which is a slight improvement over the Wells, whether it has a belt or not.

Mighty gracious. Photo appreciated too.

quote:

RIP: Photo appreciated too.

Sorry about the fuzzy pic, Corralejo Reposado.

fla3006,

fine cartridge you have there. I pored over .500's for several years, with the thought of duplicating (plus a teensy bit) my old 500 3" NE. I did not want a belt, which kept me away from the simple solution...your 510 Wells. I ended up having Dave Kiff cut me a 510 Wells reamer, minus the belt. I differentiated it from many others by calling it the 510 Kayser Express. RIP is doing much the same thing, but since mine gives me about 2250fps with a 600gr bullet, I will settle happily for that. 416 Rigby cylindrical brass necked down in 510 Wells dies, with the bonus of a blank headstamp...my local jewelry store is doing 510KX for $10 for all 72 cases I currently possess.
It is on a Remington Model of 1934 (commercial version of the P14/17), basically gutted and refilled with Wisner jewelry.

regards,

Rich

quote:

Corralejo Reposado

i think i will go to the liquor cabinet and catch up to you

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
Corralejo Reposado.

Drinking Tequilla without me .. man...

LOL
jeffe

quote:

Idaho Sharpshooter: mine gives me about 2250fps with a 600gr bullet, I will settle happily for that.

Rich, that should be more than enough for anyone and any kind of game. And rounds based on the Rigby don't have the feeding and capacity constraints of some of the others. Ron's proposal is interesting, takes it to the max.

Personally, I really liked the idea of the Weatherby / Lawson thumbhole mix for your stock.

Have you considered gold inlay on the metal?



analog_peninsula

quote:

We of the forum proceeded to pile on and brow beat Ray for that.

I apologize.

It takes a big man to apologize. You are a man among man. I wish he were here to post an acceptance of your apology.

Yes, I really miss his insights and contributions. I would much rather have him posting than some of the people that criticized him so much. Some individuals were obviously jealous, petty, immature and evil in their commments.

I don't include you in the above category, but some that have responded to you in this post fit those categories to the letter.

cs273,
The sentiment is appreciated. However, let's not take any of this too seriously.

Several years ago in the US Presidential race there was a debate as to whether character matters. My opinion is that character is the only thing that matters, period.

When you have people on these forums, making anonymous posts hiding behind pseudonyms and questions a persons integrity and honesty without knowing all the facts, as has happened in this forum concerning Ray Atkinson, who used his name and didn't hide, then those comments made against him are what I consider to be the words of cowards.

Too bad the days of frontier justice are over with, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not exactly sure how can say, "let's not take any of this too seriously". I've never questioned anyone's honesty or integrity unless it was unquestionable their fault.

If I've ever had a dispute with someone in the real world, I've never gone on internet and whined and complained about it like a little schoolgirl. Which doesn't seem to be the case for some users in these forums. I respect people's views even if they don't agree with mine. Everyone is ignorant, we're all just ignorant about different things.

Many people don't have tolerance of other people views, lives or knowledge.

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
Ron's proposal is interesting, takes it to the max.

Forrest,
Great Abraham Lincoln quote. Abe's mother and I are related.

I tried this and that and always arrived at the inevitable 500/470 Mbogo, in Dave's footsteps.

Fred Zeglin recommends a neck length of 90% to 100% of caliber. 90% is achieved with the Jamison 470 Mbogo basic brass right
now. My 500/470 Mbogo chamber neck will allow overall brass length of 3.000" trim to 2.990" and that is very close to a 100% neck.

Fred Zeglin also recommended giving credit to the parent cartridge in naming a wildcat. So I have: 500/470 Mbogo.

The engraver can add a "500" to the Jamison 470 Mbogo headstamp.

If Jamison ever makes a "500 Mbogo" headstamp, that will work too, and it might be the full 3.000" long also.

quote:

Originally posted by cs273:
Everyone is ignorant, we're all just ignorant about different things.

No truer words were ever said about the human condition.

Thankfully, some of us have an open mind about learning something new.

Forgive me for the subterfuge of saying Ray was talking about the 500/470 Mbogo.

He was talking about the 500 Rigby ImProved:

500 RIP

Same cat with slightly different spots.

And Ray was still wrong. As he was about many, many things.

But he did have personality, and that counts for a lot. Just like that Arnold on Green Acres.

MR

Ray was not wrong on that one. Others were. Just as MR is wrong now.

Sure the slightly rebated and belted 500 A2 will work, but the non-rebated and non-belted 500 Mbogo will work better. Period.

RIP, I'm talking practicality here. Not saying that it's a bad cartridge design.

With ballistic twins, like these, I will take the SAAMI standardized, non-wildcat, proven and available commodity over the non-standard, wildcat, essentially unavailable alternative any time.

As for rebated rims and belts, I find those debates to be just a bit boring, not to say stupid.

Belted rounds work fine, and have done for nearly a hundred years. And any but the most radically rebated rim can be made to feed fine, too, as they, too have done for nearly a hundred years.

To me, practicality is king.

MR,
When talking 50 caliber bolt action rifles for hunting, practicality is hardly an issue!

Either way, you are SOL in the bush if they lose your ammo via the baggage handling, so you better have a .375 H&H or a .375 Wby along as a backup, whatever you take.

That said, it will be no problem to lay in a supply of the more perfect cartridge at home.

It takes just a liitle scratching to get together properly headstamped brass for a rifle that has its barrel marked either 500 A-Square or 500/470 Mbogo.

I say this with eight years experience with the 500 A-Square and .510/460 Wby JAB.

Progress toward perfection: 500/470 Mbogo.

Now see if thou canst get thy stream as high on yonder fence post as mine mark:

I am just curious if anyone has ever had the headstamp on ammo checked. After 14 trips in 5 countries I have not had ammon even looked at.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
When talking 50 caliber bolt action rifles for hunting, practicality is hardly an issue!

That remark is a more than reasonable facsimile of the truth! But there are even degrees of impracticality! I prefer the less impractical.

RIP, I guess I am too conventional by half to play in your league. I will have to get a ladder to win this contest!

quote:

Originally posted by MLindsay:
I am just curious if anyone has ever had the headstamp on ammo checked. After 14 trips in 5 countries I have not had ammon even looked at.

Mike

Mike, I have had my ammunition examined (for caliber to match my rifles) and counted, one time, in Tanzania. It all matched up.

But "they" then levied a 50 cents per round "tax" on me, that no one had ever mentioned before that time.

I suppose the money I handed over to "them" might have made it into the government's hands, but I wouldn't bet a nickel on it.

MR,
Peace.

ML,
On my one trip to Botswana they acted like they were looking at the headstamps and counting every cartridge. No bribes required nor even allowed in Botswana. Coming out I had empty brass only, having given my handloads to the PH's, and they did not even look at the empty brass. Post 9/11 best have peace of mind.

MR,

got to agree 100% (old school I guess, no 110% anything here) with RIP and Ray, a 500 on the Rigby case is about the ultimate in a practical .50. No belt, no issues of any sort. Headstamp? Buy unformed/cylindrical and have the jeweler make it match. If he can engrave my wife's initials inside her wedding band, case heads are nothing.
600gr at .500NE 3" velocities (2150) or up another 150fps at less than 50K PSI says more than adequate in my book.

no offense man, but you are JUST! WRONG! on this post.

Rich