Extremist458,


"Colt's tried to impress this point on the US Dept. of Defense when the M16A2 was adopted, but were rebuffed, because the 1/7 twist is the NATO standard, so that was that."

No, I am not contradicting myself - they made two versions - a 9" twist and a 7" twist, but have to supply the military with the 7" inch twist because it is the Nato standard and they won't budge. And that is all to do with the tracer bullets that need to be stabilized, and I mentioned that. I read all the articles on the M4. Important thing thou is that they (Colt) are of the opinion that the 9" twist is better (more appropriate) and thus made their recommendation as such. So Colt believes so.

It stands to reason that a drive band bullet is more gentle on the lands - that is not in dispute. Slipping or stripping is by virtue of barrel variations and excess twist - that is the issue. Now this is where Lawndart comes in to share his experience with us and give us his take on the matter ... whatever that is.

I would be interesting to learn what went wrong with Lawndart's bullet.
The 270 gr GS-FN bullet (previous version, now weight has been reduced) shoots well in my 9,3.
May be there is something else unique in the 404 Jeff that needs to come out in this discussion.
There is not a conclusive answer so far on Lawndart experience and we need to understand that.
So we need to weigh all the possibilities here, no need for another thread, before we come up with a final answer.

My question to you is .... do you go along with what I said pertinently .... "Excess spin was brought up, as it sits and wait there (latent) for a variation in barrel or bullet dimensions to manifest itself and then it triggers instability." ?


Warrior

Hey Warrior,

quote:

"Excess spin was brought up, as it sits and wait there (latent) for a variation in barrel or bullet dimensions to manifest itself and then it triggers instability." ?

Let me see now, do I understand this correctly: If a barrel is over size and the bullet that is used in that barrel is under size, a tighter than normal twist will strip the bullet? Is that what you are saying?

Whooptee-doo.

Just some additional info relating to the 404 as a cartridge.

When William Jackman Jeffery introduced this 404 Jeffery cartridge in 1909, as a rimless version of his then popular 400 Jeffery, present day flat nosed Solid did not exist, only pointy FMJ's as can be seen from the following picture - original bullets used in the 404 were Kynoch and RWS and were only 33 mm long.

Being a short-throated big-bore caliber (only 7.62 mm), it means that bullet are typically seated deep into the case, and the ogived bullet needs to get closed to the lands, it creates the situation that the that FN bullets need to be seated even deeper to be able to chamber, and fall far short of the specified AOL of 89 mm.



AOL ---------------------------------------- 89.66 mm
Case length ----------------------------- 73.02 mm
Bullet length outside case (ogive) -- 16.64 mm (designed for pointy FMJ bullets)
Freebore/throat length --------------- 7.62 mm (this is even less than caliber size of 10.75 mm)

(By comparison the 458 Win and Lott has a freebore of 28.15 mm)

Many present day bullet manufacturers do not recognize this shortcoming of the 404 Jeffery, and so cut the crimping groove in the middle of the bullet or about 60% from the rear, leaving a relatively long 40% of the bullet length outside the case, which has the effect that the bullet cannot be chambered if crimped at the crimping groove. If a bullet happens to be of FN configuration of the same traditional weight (400 grains) the problem is even worse. Solids need to be made shorter to fit the original designed dimensions and in addition the specific gravity of Brass and Copper Solids are lower and should be in the order of 340 to 350 grains in my opinion. Also the standard CIP twist rate is 16.5" and was not designed at the time to stabilize the longer mono-metal Solids that did not exist.

Some examples:

The 400 gr Barnes RN Solid is 36.6 mm long and the Barnes Banded FN Solid will be even longer due to the pressure groove design.
The 400 gr Steel-jacketed Woodleigh FMJ is 34.21 mm (round nose ogive) versus a Wdl RN Soft of 32.56 mm.
The Rhino Solid Shank bullet also has a crimping groove in the wrong place and the owner has been advised to correct.
The 387 gr GSC-FN Copper Solid is 35..3 mm long and since the nose length is available is pans out like this:

Bullet length ------- 35.3 mm (100%)
Nose length -------- 17.0 mm (48%) (too long ito design criteria)
Length in case ----- 18.3 mm (52%)

Here is the 400gr.423 Hornady DGS - crimping groove is near the middle of the bullet.



Warrior

Hey Warrior,
You sure are a hoot a minute.



Got any answers on the bore, groove and twist question or are you still trying to spin up an answer?

Alf wrote way back in 2007 to Wink about his experience with the 404 Jeffery, similar to Wink's .... "This is the first bullet (Rhino Solid Shank) I have tried which, when seated to the crimping groove, is too long for my rifle. I have already tried the Swift A-Frame, the Hawks and the Northforks. Also what should the freebore be in this caliber?"

"Posted 19 February 2007 19:01 Hide Post

Wink:

It's not the Bullet's fault it's the 404 Leade that's the problem! It's one of those British perculiarities. If you look at the original Eley and Kynoch drawings and the way the bullets were loaded it's easy to see why. Now when Barnes first made 404's in the X bullet, to get them to feed in my original spec chamber and leade rifle, I had to bury the bullets so deep into the mouth of the case it was hanging over the ogive, did not look good."

Clearly the bullet is too long.

Wink was in touch with Rhino Bullets and here is his response having spoken with them:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=361107626#361107626

As we have seen many bullet makers have a problem with where they cut the crimping groove and some admitted that and took action, but Gerard claims his FN bullet will chamber - well let us then compare his FN bullet with the HV bullet and follow his advice to load the bullet to touch the lands and see how feasible this is, and remember the FN is a wide FN and the HV is a Spitzer ....

Bullet type --------- 387gr FN ----- 320 gr HV
Bullet length ------- 35.3 mm ------ 35.0 mm
Nose length -------- 17.0 mm ------ 17.2 mm

If we assume the HV has the ideal length, and it is touching the lands somewhere in the middle on its ogive (as Gerard suggests his bullets should be loaded), how do we get it right to chamber the FN with essentially no ogive, but a wide FN nose configuration? Interesting to note that the FN was designed to be longer than the HV Spitzer.

Warrior

The design logic of the longer FN over the HV bullet needs some clarification for the 404 Jeffery, as it is in stark contrast with how the bullets other big-bore GSC FN bullets were designed .... here we go:

. 416 bullets (FN bullet designed shorter)

Bullet type --------- 380gr FN ----- 330 gr HV
Bullet length ------- 35.3 mm ------ 37.9 mm
Nose length -------- 17.0 mm ------ 17.0 mm

. 458 bullets (FN bullet designed shorter)

Bullet type --------- 450gr FN ----- 450 gr HV ---- 400 gr HV
Bullet length ------- 34.2 mm ------ 39.0 mm ---- 36.4 mm
Nose length -------- 15.8 mm ------ 16.8 mm ---- 16.8 mm

Now consider that the .458 Win and Lott has a long leade of 28.15 mm whereas the 404 Jeffery has a much shorter leade of only 7.62 mm, and yet we see this incongruence with the .423 FN bullet being slightly longer than its HV cousin. Surely its logical to expect the FN to be shorter, especially in the 404 Jeff with its very short leade - not much room to play with.

Warrior

quote:

... the GSC-FN is a wide FN and the HV is a Spitzer ....

Bullet type --------- 387gr FN ----- 320 gr HV
Bullet length ------- 35.3 mm ------ 35.0 mm
Nose length -------- 17.0 mm ------ 17.2 mm

If we assume the HV has the ideal length, and it is touching the lands somewhere in the middle on its ogive (as Gerard suggests his bullets should be loaded), how do we get it right to chamber the FN with essentially no ogive, but a wide FN nose configuration?

I suggested that FN bullets be made lighter than their Soft equivalents, only because of dimensional issues. Granted the POI will vary marginally at short range, but that is not a serious shortcoming in my opinion, as DG hunting is essentially short-range work. Whre Solids are being used exclusively this becomes a non event in any case.

I am also of the opinion that the lighter than tradition HV bulet of 320 gr is an interesting offering, as one needs no more than that on a buffalo or any other big game such as eland. The 9,3 and .375 do this every day with 286 and 300 grainers. Do I stand by my conviction that a Soild for a 404 Jeff should be betwwen 340 to 350 grains? ... You bet.

Warrior

Pontificus Ignoranus - Here is big time egg on your face!!

BTW, who made that drawing above? It has a number of mistakes on it.

Rasputin,

And are those mistakes not GROSS, heh? (various ways some writers define certain areas, but it does not change the logic)
Rectify them and post your own drawing for the greater good of mankind.
I will then send it on to the Hornady people, compliments of our very own Rasputin of SA.

Here is another one, just termed somewhat differently but all tell the same story ...



Warrior

Northfolk and Barnes bullets work, heavy bullets work well too, and GS Custom bullets are beyond your reproach (and understanding as well I see).
The 270 is still 270 grains.
Any bullet too small for a given bore will not work, regardless of design or twist.
Every barrel manufacturer I know of offers a slower twist to accomodate thin jacketed light bullets for high velocity so it doesn't spin the jacket off; homogenious bullets do not have this issue...nothing to do with premature wear.
Yes, you do contradict yourself because you do not read what you copy-n-paste before you quote it. No military 5.56 issue rifle has ever been 1:9 twist. And you are trying to reflect two seperate points. Twist and no effect on barrel wear, and GS custom bullets do not strip...give it a rest.

I'm sorry guys, you cannot fix stupid.

Back to the .404! I got an idea! How about you try a few and see how they work out for you. Do some testing, it's always fun!

quote:

The 270 is still 270 grains.

Warrior

quote:

The 270 gr GS-FN bullet (previous version, now weight has been reduced...

The 270 grain FN is the .375 not the 9.3, and the 9.3 is 260 grains. I simply though you were in error again, stating the wrong caliber, since I highly doubt you have ever shot the GS bullets. There were previous bullets that are no longer listed, but if someone has a need for them, they can still be had. They were discontinued because the 260 simply works so much better. See (a new and interesting concept for you) GSC wants to sell the best bullet, not just anything the market might buy. But none of this has anything to do with "Best solids for a 404 Jeffery".

I admit I made a mistake, since I could not interprit what you were trying to say. Can you do the same and let's just move on already.

quote:

Any bullet too small for a given bore will not work, regardless of design or twist.

What does "too" mean ?? Who made this an isssue of too small? Gerard did not like the idea of a 340 to 350 grain FN Solid. I like it for the reasons stated and it will work and it is not "too" small, is it? In any event these variables of a smaller bullet (weight and length) is intertwined with twist. I do not think for one minute that that the lighter 320 gr HV will not work, in fact I think it is great and I said so, but I would have personally opted for a Solid being 15% or so less than the traditional weight of Soft Nosed bullets being 400 grains for the 404, and in this vain I suggested 340 to 350 grains, just like for the .458 I prefer the 450 grainer over the 500 grainer. This rule should actually apply for all calibers where a mono-metal Solid is used with a lower specific gravity that in turn is interlinked with the stability factor.

quote:

... and GS custom bullets do not strip...give it a rest.

I did not say that GS bullets strip as a matter of cause, I said given the right variables, that has nothing to do with the bullet, it can strip. Did I not make myself clear on that? For ease of reference ... "Slipping or stripping is by virtue of barrel variations and excess twist"

CIP twist is 1:16.5" twist.
McGowen offers a 1:10" and a 1:14" twist.
When the pitch angle is in increased it is bound to increase the propensity for stripping when shot in a "loose" barrel.
Then we can have shallow grooves as well ...

Other CIP trivia:
Groove diameter: 10.77mm = 0.4240"
Land diameter/bore: 10.46mm = 0.4118"
Grooves = 0.0122"
Krieger advertises 0.424" groove and .413" bore.

Warrior

Warrior, what's wrong with you? Are you so far beyond logic that you do not even hear what you say or read what you write?

You ask me about too small, but you have continuously made useless point of a bullet being undersized (too small) and a barrel being too far oversized. There is no way this can exsist unless you are shooting two different calibers! Like previously stated, a .408 in a .416. Seing the worst barrel I have seen oversized was 3 thou oversized (extensive use of bore paste), and GS holds their tolerences to 2/10 thousandths, and the bullets still did not strip, I cannot imagine this actually happening. And no manufacturer of any bullets what so ever can build to accomodate this condition. If they did, then pressure would be dangerously excessive...though I have seen some Rhino bullets come in grossly oversized! http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/5401099821/p/1

340-350 grain is just fine, so keep on shooting them, but you know that is not what I was talking about. Gerard doesn't like that weight because the found the 387 to be the best design and performer, so that is what he makes, and it fits the 404 Jeffery just fine. Sense defies you. 450 grains from 500 is 10%. And 35.3mm vs 34.21 is 3% difference in length, and vs 32.56 is still only 7.5%, so stability factors are very close...with the 387 being over 2. Now where this matters is when it strikes the animal. In the case of the FN with it's weight already forward, broad meplat and in the case of the NF's and GSC's, expanding meplat, in-game stability is beyond reproach. Especially compared to the round nose bullets the 404 originally used. You are way off track here and trying to find something to hold on to when you have been wrong from the beginning. Lay off man!

I know you will try to blow up a big discussion about this in-game stability and all that, but it has already been done and is over with, so spare us. Please! http://forums.accuratereloadin...4711043/m/2861098911

"I said given the right variables, that has nothing to do with the bullet, it can strip. Did I not make myself clear on that? For ease of reference ... "Slipping or stripping is by virtue of barrel variations and excess twist""

OK, so it has nothing to do with bullet? I agree, so why then have you insisted that it has to do with GSC bullets, undersized, and barrel variables? I do not believe that large of a variable exists in a barrel, unless it was created. You know that is a rediculous point. Any barrel and bullet can be made to fail, if you want to produce those conditions. So let's be real for a change.

Even a 10 twist will not strip the bullets, especially with grooves 6.1 thou deep! That is a lot of room for "variables"! And GS bullets are made to those specs, so the difference would have to be even greater then I previously stated. Do you just jot stuff down and not even look at it? It's actually helping disprove your inaccurate notions. Even a .413 bore is still 5.5 thou deep grooves, better then most other calibers! Drop it man.

Hey Warrior,
You demonstrate great knowledge and ability of how to make a complete fool of yourself. It is rare to see a person take so much trouble and who goes into such detail to prove that he knows so little. Above all, it is difficult to fathom how flat your learning curve is. One could call it a learning flat instead of a learning curve.

Warrior:

quote:

If we assume the HV has the ideal length, and it is touching the lands somewhere in the middle on its ogive

Here I must break in. I have had some .581" bullets for my 577. A driving band bullet. Dont want to mention manufacturer as the bullets were given a wrong diameter by mistake. Those bullets did strip the driving bands in my .585" barrel with a 1-12" twist. Bullets were unstable and some penetrated very well, others went in at an angle - uneven bulletsholes on paper.. I made some testshots on elephants and found the same - most penetrated very poor, but a very few penetrated very vell (probably "lucky" shots which became shoulder stabilized from the FN design). ALL the recovered bullets HAD NO MARKS WHATSOEVER FROM THE RIFLING!!!!!. Barrel is a Krieger with groove/landdimension .585"/.575". Recovered bullets measured .575" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Bullet type --------- 387gr FN ----- 320 gr HV
Bullet length ------- 35.3 mm ------ 35.0 mm
Nose length -------- 17.0 mm ------ 17.2 mm

If we assume the HV has the ideal length, and it is touching the lands somewhere in the middle on its ogive (as Gerard suggests his bullets should be loaded), how do we get it right to chamber the FN with essentially no ogive, but a wide FN nose configuration? Interesting

I am sorry, but I cannot see the logic of this. If a Spitzer and a FN bullet is essentially the same length they cannot be seated the same way - not when the Spitzer is supposed to touch the lands, unless the freebore is such that both bullets fit. As I do not own a 404 I cannot test myself and rely on what other reloaders said by experiencing problems of bullets that do not chamber.

Warrior

Warrior,

Then let the man who ownes the rifle do the testing. Like so many of us have said before, try a few out and see what works; it's always a good time when testing.
Gerard suggests to try them touching the lands, it's a good place to start, since you can do this with GS bullets because they do not create pressure spikes when seated to touching the lands. This is regarding high accuracy requirements, but is not necessary and only if you so choose to try it, and all other conditions are met. It is not needed, nor does the bullet care if you do.

Extremist458,

I could not see at face value that the FN bullet could be chamber when looking at the measurements, but Gerard has assured us that it will chamber, so I have to take his word for it, so the problem seems to only lie with other Soft bullets as Wink alluded to (including Rhino and Barnes-X).

It would have been great for Wink and Lawndart to have come in and made some comments. Lawndart has elected not to do so, and thus Gerard cannot be blamed that such a GSC-FN bullet that landed sideways is non exitant, when Lawndart elects to ignore the request to share his evidence with all of us. I expect in the first instance that Lawdart had to approach the manufacturer with his problem - it seems clear that he has not done so - not then and not now afer invitation.

Warrior

I persoanly would not want to seat any solid or soft bullet to touch the lands on a DG rifle. If that bullet moves any amount forward from recoil it will not chamber and of course that will only occur when facing a charge (Murphy's Rule).

465H&H

Bore rider designs usually only have the area just above the crimp grove and driving bands touch the lands so should not have any short freebore or lead issues.

My experience with the 9,3 in a CZ 550 is that you cannot load the 270gr FN bullet to touch the lands - it is an impossibility, as the bullet jump is still 5.5 mm. The difference measured from the bolt face to the tip of the bullet when pushed into the chamber to touch the lands measures 91.2 mm. The max COAL one can get is 85.6 mm (CIP AOL = 83.6 mm) in the magazine and the seating depth of the bullet is then just under diameter size of 8.28 mm for a steady hold on the case neck.

So loaded, it gives a bullet jump of 5.5 mm before the bullet will touch the lands.
So in the 9,3 x 62 mm, the 270 gr FN can never come near the lands.
The 9,3 is a very long throated caliber - 28.0 mm (Freebore + Throat as per CIP's "G" measurement)

With the 286 gr Rhino Bullet (Spitzer shape) at a COAL of 86 mm, the bullet jump is .75mm to the lands. (Pieter Olivier)
I load my cartridges in my custom Mauser rifle to 85 mm COAL with a bullet jump of 1.75 mm.

It seems a very different situation to the short-throated 404 Jeffery.
May be one day I will get to see how a 387 gr FN bullet in the 404 is load flush to the lands, crimped at the last driving band

Warrior

I agree, a DG load should never be loaded that far out. I would for sure rather load short in both areas to allow smooth feeding.

Warrior, why do you continue? You throw little ideas and concepts against GS and attempt to mislead. This is unneccessary and unwanted...just keep it to yourself.

GS makes the nose too long, then too short, then too long...whatever. GS is Custom, so if you need or want something different, all you have to do is ask. No issue with the 9.3, and load however you like, we are not talking about the 9.3 here. You just keep on talking about the other topics and get me to jump in (I should know better by now, you do it intentionally).

You don't have to load the 387 to the lands, in fact I agree, you shouldn't, and you do not crimp them. You are fishing for another argument with the last driving band comment. I'll spare the thread and it's readers and just ignore you.

The info I provided on the 9,3 is as precise as you can get. Let us get the same for the 404. I am demonstrating the contrast here and that is not misleading. Let us get the facts - nobody so far has come out with such precise details about the 404, as I have given here about the 9,3. That's why we are here, to debate and to get the facts.

Warrior

quote:

You don't have to load the 387 to the lands, in fact I agree, you shouldn't, and you do not crimp them

Extremist458,

The use of FN Solids is primarily destined for use on DG, and you make the statement that ... "and you do not crimp them". Why would this be? It seems you are taking an opposite view here to most DG hunters that do crimp their ammo. Crimping is important for the rigors and personal safety when it comes DG hunting.

465 H&H just made the following statement above ... "I persoanly would not want to seat any solid or soft bullet to touch the lands on a DG rifle". Sound advice from 465 H&H, because with recoil, an uncrimped bullet can move back into the cartridge case and cause havoc.

I do not quite follow your line of thought, but perhaps you can motivate your view for us.
It would help if we could get actual dimensions of the 404, as I provided with the 9,3 to support your view.
Failing that we are back to generalities, not so?

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
because with recoil, an uncrimped bullet can move back into the cartridge case and cause havoc.

Warrior

In a bolt action rifle thats right, but in a double the bullet will often tend to elongate out of the case..

You are correct, we are at generallities, and the 9.3 isn't relivent nor part of this thread, and you certainly did not provide them to support my view, though it does not matter.
Forget the dimentions for the 404. I believe there might be quite a varience from rifle to rifle, so as I said, just try a few.
The statement you quoted from 465H&H about seating to the lands has nothing to do with crimp or recoil, so you make no sense. But I do see your point, and so I will explain. And no, I do not take an opposite view from most DG hunters, nor do you represent them. Yes, I know FN's are destined for DG, and you can crimp if you choose, but please review this:
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/faqcrimp.html

Pontificus Ignoranus, this is for you.

Extremist,
The FAQ page on crimping is a mess. There are pictures that seem to have migrated from elsewhere. I will try to get it cleaned up in a day or two. The pics below are relevant and shows why a drive band bullet does not need to be crimped if the sizer die and button are correctly dimensioned.

Rasputin,

We still do not have your drawing - the perfect one with no errors, nor the dimensions of the 404 chamber indicating how your FN bullet fits, and what the bullet jump is, if any. Just clarify it the way I showed for the 9,3. It should be simple, it should not take up pages and pages.

Thanks for your drawing on the crimping aspect explaining why it is not needed with your bullets - well llustrated! In the same vain, your 404 drawing can clarify the situation very quickly, this is all I am asking.

Warrior

Gerard,
Sorry about that. I got a good understanding from it just reading the first paragraph, and the rest of the page reads well...I guess you can learn a lot when you read and actually understand what you read instead of just coming to your own conclusion. I also believe it is very good info, and brings up a few great points
-Not crimping with banded bullets allows a very consistent release...more accurate
-It allows for infinite seating depth; this has many advantages!
-It eliminates some room for error, i.e. crimp consistency, trip length and even a little neck thickness consistency. It also allows you to headspace off the case lip if you so choose and reduced the wear on the lip of the case. Hornady did some research on this when they created the X-die. If your brass and chamber are close enough in tolerance (regarding match rifles) you can effectively use the lip of the brass to control elongation and stretch.
-It also eliminated the need to seat only to the crimping groove location.

...which brings up yet another point...Warrior, what is your point? You can seat the GS Custom Bullets, including 387FN, anywhere you like! So why does Gerard have to provide a drawing to illustrate this to you? Where are you going with this? Why does any bullet manufacturer need to provide drawings of how all their bullets fit in every chamber? There is no specific bullet jump, it can be whatever your little heart desires. Do you really not understand this and therefore require a pictorial explanation? You throw out a challenge, then an errored point, then change points, then change views, change concepts, refuse to address what we have just showed you, then come up with a completely different reason for you to continue...let it go man.

P.S. I looked around and found a great deal of variances in the .404J chambers. But the older and original chamber is very close to the pictures above...and many FNs and RN have worked just fine through them all.

This is for Ignoranus.

Extremist,
No sweat. An observation: Reasoning with Ignoranus is futile, as you have seen. He does not understand a thing you say and has alegiance only to his agenda. Above all, he is most sly when he puts on his lucid face. He fools a lot of people that way, especially those who take members here at face value. Ignore the fool, the village posse will find him sooner or later.

You're right, I'm just can't help being a fighter for what I believe in; it's my nature. I should have just dropped it long before. Oh well.

Final summary:

quote:

Bullet type --------- 387gr FN ----- 320 gr HV
Bullet length ------- 35.3 mm ------ 35.0 mm
Nose length -------- 17.0 mm ------ 17.2 mm
-----------------------------------------------------
This means that the first contact either of these two will make with the lands will be at 17 and 17.2 mm from the nose of the bullet.

"Start load development with the bullet touching the rifling if throat, magazine box and case dimensions will allow it. HV and FN bullets do not raise pressure levels like jacketed lead and standard and grooved monometal bullets do, when seated against the rifling."

Warrior

I can honestly say I have never met someone as dense as you Warrior...we should make bullets from you.

Extremist458,

Condescending talk will get you nowhere.
Yes, it was a pain to get to the facts - that could have been given in the first posting.
It was like pulling teeth.

Warrior

Pontificus Ignoranus go here. It is only like pulling teeth because your grasp of the concepts is so poor. How do you explain basic multiplication and division to someone who cannot count?

Warrior,
You're right, condescending talk will get me no where, and it should be below me, but it certainly makes me feel better. The statement is still true though; you just do not even understand how much you do not understand, yet you call yourself an expert?

Here's a little something for you: let's relate for a moment. See, I do not understand quantum physics, double rifles and really short barrels. I don't comment about them. No implication they are bad, just not my cup of tea. I'll ask a question, throw out an idea and sit back and take the constructive criticism AR offers. I see a lot of historical rifles and great posts about things I haven't the slightest clue about...so I leave it to those that do! Try it!

quote:

Yes, it was a pain to get to the facts - that could have been given in the first posting.
It was like pulling teeth.

No it wasn't, you just copy and paste from the GS website.