For those that love the 404 like myself what are he best solids you use I have only used woodleigh soft nose projectiles and need a solid for elephant/buff what do you all think

Just stick to the Woodleigh: You have both 400 grains and 450 grains. I prefere thr 450 grains.

quote:

Originally posted by zhaba:
For those that love the 404 like myself what are he best solids you use I have only used woodleigh soft nose projectiles and need a solid for elephant/buff what do you all think

400 Barnes Banded and or 380 North Fork Solids!

I don't shoot .423, but those are good "solid" choices in all calibers.

Michael

I have used a combination of 400 grain Woodleigh soft-noses and Woodleighs Solids for buffalo with good success. They are relatively easy to load to have same point of impact also.
I have a custom 404Jeffery with a 26" barrel.

Any opinion of the new Hornady steel jacketed solids in this caliber?

If your rifle will feed them, and you can get them to hit with your softs, then I like the North Fork Flat Point.

If not, then the Woodleighs or the Hornadys will work fine.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
If your rilfe will feed them, and you can get to hit with your softs, then I like the North Fork Flat Point.

If not, then the Woodleighs or the Hornadys will work fine.

Same for me. The NFs would hang up in the #2 spot, so I went w/ Barnes, but Woodleigh or Hornady will do fine. You may not even load them up, depending on your PH recom & the softs you choose. I run the 380grNF softs & carried solids, but only as the last round in the mag & for spare rounds incase of a follow up.

thanks for the input guys,INVN how much difference have you found in point of aim between the 400 & 450 grn bullets? do you feel you could use a 400grn soft and a 450grn solid in the same magazine? or better to stick with the same weight?

The guy who developed the tungsten core bullet for Speer still makes them. He calls them Safari Select. They are expensive. They work. Don't know if he makes them in .423, though.

The .375's will go end to end on a buff and keep right on traveling.

I think those with questions should go here and have a look. We have been doing a tremendous amount of test work with different solids. You might get something out of it.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...221044921#5221044921

There is a lot of material here to look through.

Michael

Johno, You do know I would/ will use the 450grn Woodleighs but a mate is heading over to Matetsi #6 for Buff and has those new Woodleigh Hydro Monos feeding well and ready for his trip.

Hey Adam I thought the things wouldn't feed????? do you know if he had to do anything different in the loading???? Might give them a try

quote:

Originally posted by zhaba:
Hey Adam I thought the things wouldn't feed????? do you know if he had to do anything different in the loading???? Might give them a try

Difficult with 458WM and possibly the Lott but a 404 is a totally different kettle of fish with its shoulders.

The new Woodleigh is a superb solid, penetrates well, deep and 100% dead straight. I was only able to test some 400 gr 458 caliber samples, I am hoping to get some more soon from some friends of mine there in Australia. If they feed in your rifle, they are very good solids!



Michael

One trick with the 380 North Fork solid (why am I shilling for them all the time? Oh yeah, the best bullet extant).

Anyway, the trick. Get a CH4D hand cannelure cutter. Cut a new cannelure just forward of the bands. Use your Lee factory crimp die to crimp in the new location. The cartridge will feed much better.

The new Woodleigh bullet is your basic bronze/brass cup point solid, similar to the North Fork. The idea is about 120 years old. It certainly works.

Has anyone used the GS solid. I have RWS solids that print to same POI as the Woodleigh softs and both at 2335fps but the GS impresses me from thier website.

Von Gruff.

The GS solids will either work like death lasers, or hit the target sideways. Gerard's driving bands are fairly shallow. The only way to know is to buy a box or borrow some and give them a whirl.
If your present system works well, and you have a hunt planned, you might want to hold off on any changes.

I haven't sawn any RWS solids apart, but I believe Woodleigh supplies those to RWS.

The RWS cartridges, albeit pricey, do work very well.

LD

I have never had a GSC FN hit a target sideways. The drive bands are precisely the same height as the land standoff of the barrel in which the bullet is used. The GSC bullet shaft is bore diameter and the drive bands are barrel groove diameter. In other words, a GSC bullet fits the barrel like a surgeons glove fits his hand, not like a welders mitt fits a welders hand.

Assuming no feeding problems or POA vs. POI issues, A-Square Monolithics are really excellent.

I'm sure I will catch some flack for this but in my opinion, with modern bonded core soft points in .423 diameter there is no longer any need to use solids on buffalo. In this caliber I would use a wide opening soft such as the NF, Woodleigh RN soft or even the Nosler Partition. I want my bullet to stay in the buff and not wound another behind it. If you do use any solid you will have to pass up shots at buff when they are in a herd. Often all you see is a shoulder through a hole in the brush and you can't tell what is behind it. Shoot-throughs are something you just can't take a chance on in this situation. Watch the Saturday morning TV buff hunts and see how many times this scenario plays out.

For elephants, all you need is a solid to go through the ribcage to the off side hide or penetrate past the back of the skull on on a frontal shot. Most of the flat nosed solids whether, GSC, Barnes, Hornady DGS or North Fork will completely penetrate an ele on side heart/lung shot and maybe wound or kill another behind it. Don't say it won't happen because it did to me this past November. In some ways, I believe our newest solid designs have gotten too good.

465H&H

Hi 465H&H, I plan to shoot 570g Swift A-Frames out of my 500 Jeffery for buffalo at around 2300 fps, maybe a tad faster. I was at SCI Reno and they showed me test bullets opening up from 2250 fps to as low as 1700 fps. Seems like they should do fine. Even at 2250 fps they were expanded fully but not flattened out too much. They looked much like the bullet in this link.

http://www.berettaaustralia.co...rain-af-clone-2.html

Chuck

Chuck

They won't flatten as they have the metal across the middle - hence the bulge that occurs.

Warrior

quote:

... it stands to reason that a faster twist is more likely to strip, especially if it is overly fast ...

The military is a good learning school when it comes to firearms, as things happen at a much larger scale. It might be interesting to pause as see what what is being said by a military gunsmith.

In the beginning, a 1:14 twist was used in the military version of the .223, the M16 assault rifle with a 55 gr bullet. Then the twist rate got changed to 1:12 and the accuracy was still excellent and bullets flew point on. However, penetration at long-range remained poor and they opted for a heavier 62 grain bullet, but it could not be stabilized by a 1:12 twist, and so they tried a 1:10 down through to a 1:7 and so NATO settled on a 1:7 twist. The 62 gr NATO SS109 bullet had a steel core inserted specifically to meet a requirement that the bullet be able to penetrate through one side of a steel helmet at 600 meters.

Clark Towle, a Gunsmith writes ..... and I am quoting some relevant aspects on the question regarding US Army M16A2 barrels (.223 caliber) that are wearing out prematurely with NATO SS109 (US M855) ammunition due to its 7-inch barrel twist: .... "The 1 in 7" twist seems to cause premature throat erosion. The cause is because the twist is so fast that the bullet actually skids a few thousands of an inch before the rifling takes hold and can stabilize it. This condition gets exaggerated with each shot. I've seen barrels that swallow the throat erosion gage in as little as 2,000 rounds. The 7" twist was originally deemed necessary to stabilize the heavier SS109 round (62 gr bullet)" as opposed to the M193 Ball (55 gr bullet). For interest sake, the Belgian FN SS109 loading was chosen for standardization and not the American equivalent being the M855 ball ammo.

A 9" twist does make vastly more sense on a gun like this (Colt's own recommendation to the US Army), especially in burst-mode, and that is why Colt's M4's are made with 9" instead of a 7" twists. The slower rifling twist means slower bore erosion (as there is less resistance to the bullet going down the barrel). Bore erosion is exacerbated by continuous full-auto fire (because the metal of the barrel gets softer, as it heats up). However, the 7" twist is still the current NATO standard, despite quicker bore erosion. The only reason being is to be able to stabilize the very long M856 tracer round.

A drastic increase in the pitch angle is not without its negatives.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

quote:

... it stands to reason that a faster twist is more likely to strip, especially if it is overly fast ...

The military is a good learning school when it comes to firearms, as things happen at a much larger scale. It might be interesting to pause as see what what is being said by a military gunsmith.

In the beginning, a 1:14 twist was used in the military version of the .223, the M16 assault rifle with a 55 gr bullet. Then the twist rate got changed to 1:12 and the accuracy was still excellent and bullets flew point on. However, penetration at long-range remained poor and they opted for a heavier 62 grain bullet, but it could not be stabilized by a 1:12 twist, and so they tried a 1:10 down through to a 1:7 and so NATO settled on a 1:7 twist. The 62 gr NATO SS109 bullet had a steel core inserted specifically to meet a requirement that the bullet be able to penetrate through one side of a steel helmet at 600 meters.

Clark Towle, a Gunsmith writes ..... and I am quoting some relevant aspects on the question regarding US Army M16A2 barrels (.223 caliber) that are wearing out prematurely with NATO SS109 (US M855) ammunition due to its 7-inch barrel twist: .... "The 1 in 7" twist seems to cause premature throat erosion. The cause is because the twist is so fast that the bullet actually skids a few thousands of an inch before the rifling takes hold and can stabilize it. This condition gets exaggerated with each shot. I've seen barrels that swallow the throat erosion gage in as little as 2,000 rounds. The 7" twist was originally deemed necessary to stabilize the heavier SS109 round (62 gr bullet)" as opposed to the M193 Ball (55 gr bullet). For interest sake, the Belgian FN SS109 loading was chosen for standardization and not the American equivalent being the M855 ball ammo.

A 9" twist does make vastly more sense on a gun like this (Colt's own recommendation to the US Army), especially in burst-mode, and that is why Colt's M4's are made with 9" instead of a 7" twists. The slower rifling twist means slower bore erosion (as there is less resistance to the bullet going down the barrel). Bore erosion is exacerbated by continuous full-auto fire (because the metal of the barrel gets softer, as it heats up). However, the 7" twist is still the current NATO standard, despite quicker bore erosion. The only reason being is to be able to stabilize the very long M856 tracer round.

A drastic increase in the pitch angle is not without its negatives.

Warrior

Exactly what does this have to do with selecting a solid for the 404 J. to use on buff and elephant?

465H&H

quote:

Exactly what does this have to do with selecting a solid for the 404 J. to use on buff and elephant?

It is a warning not to shoot your big bore bolt rifle or double rifle on full auto.

quote:

Originally posted by VVarrior:

quote:

Exactly what does this have to do with selecting a solid for the 404 J. to use on buff and elephant?

It is a warning not to shoot your big bore bolt rifle or double rifle on full auto.

I was wonderin' whut that switch was fer ...

quote:

I'm sure I will catch some flack for this but in my opinion, with modern bonded core soft points in .423 diameter there is no longer any need to use solids on buffalo. In this caliber I would use a wide opening soft such as the NF, Woodleigh RN soft or even the Nosler Partition. I want my bullet to stay in the buff and not wound another behind it.

465H&H,

Exactly what does this have to do with selecting a solid for the 404 J. to use on buff and elephant?

Warrior

Hey Warrior,
Exactly what does your picture of a flattened Woodleigh soft have to do with the preceding discussion of a Swift A-Frame soft?

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

quote:

I'm sure I will catch some flack for this but in my opinion, with modern bonded core soft points in .423 diameter there is no longer any need to use solids on buffalo. In this caliber I would use a wide opening soft such as the NF, Woodleigh RN soft or even the Nosler Partition. I want my bullet to stay in the buff and not wound another behind it.

465H&H,

Exactly what does this have to do with selecting a solid for the 404 J. to use on buff and elephant?

Warrior

If I have to explain it to you then you are a lost cause!

465H&H

I would never be caught in the field without proper solids! Regardless!
Michael

465 H&H,

I happen to agree with you on the question of SOFTS, so you do not have to explain it to me.

BUT is has nothing to do with SOLIDS, right?

You wanted to be clever - so this is the answer you got - the very same answer !!!

Warrior

In my opinion, to answer a question about solids by saying that they are not needed for buffalo is a lot more pertinent than rambling on about twist rates in .223s.

465H&H

Warrior is a rambling, irrelevant pimp with a lost cause.

OK, I got to say something here...I just cannot take it. I am a military gunsmith, and I have reviewed that report (don't worry guys, I'll be very brief) as well as many others. It was a thought from a guy who noticed something, and guessed. We have thousands of them. The throat erosion is caused by the heavy construction of the bullet, relativily high velocity and high temperature. Twist has nothing to do with it, and the bullets certainly do not skid, this much I can promise you. If you super heat the barrel, the bullets will start to show markings...but it has nothing to do with to fast a twist. 3 points: Colt M4's are not 1:9, they are 1:7, a 22-250 or 220 swift, let alone a 7mm mag/STW have a faster spin-up (in most cases) and more RPMs, and all the above mentioned cartridges plus many more have shot drive band bullets succesfully. Even at a much higher speed then you have experience with. Man you are so far off you don't even know where you started...

Sorry to waste so much time.

So I see it like this. If you want less penetration, shoot a ligher solid! How about a nice 300-350 then? NF and GSC bullets expand the faster you push them! If you want to slow it down, then do so, but the ligher bullet will still penetrate less. Less recoil, less chance of bullet failure...stick with the solids. You are right in saying one does not always need a solid, that is why I choose the copper solids that will give you the performance you are looking for while still giving excellent penetration and tremendous knock-down power. A smarter bullet so to speak. Honestly, you cannot have a bullet that magically adjusts to the shot! Hit the skull, the shoulder...nothing important. What happens when you really need that bullet?

"A 1/9 twist does make vastly more sense on a gun like this, because it essentially replaces the submachinegun that tankers used to be issued with. It is far more likely to be fired continuously in burst-fire mode than an M16A2 rifle carried by a rifleman would be. The slower rifling twist means slower bore erosion (as there is less resistance to the bullet going down the barrel). Bore erosion is exacerbated by continuous full-auto fire (because the metal of the barrel gets softer as it heats up). However, military-issue M4s come with the same 1/7 twist as the M16A2, which leads to faster bore erosion. The official explanation for this is that the 1/7 twist is needed for the longer tracer round, however there is no real need for the tracer to be fired from the M4, and frankly at the short ranges the M4 is likely to be used, the tracer fired from a 1/9 twist will not be that far from the point of impact of the standard ball round. Colt's tried to impress this point on the US Dept. of Defense when the M16A2 was adopted, but were rebuffed, because the 1/7 twist is the NATO standard, so that was that."

http://www.cybershooters.org/dgca/bushmaster_m4.htm


http://www.varminthunters.com/...r15nomenclature.html

Warrior

Hey Warrior,

quote:

It was a thought from a guy who noticed something, and guessed.

quote:

Man you are so far off you don't even know where you started...

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
"A 1/9 twist does make vastly more sense on a gun like this, because it essentially replaces the submachinegun that tankers used to be issued with. It is far more likely to be fired continuously in burst-fire mode than an M16A2 rifle carried by a rifleman would be. The slower rifling twist means slower bore erosion (as there is less resistance to the bullet going down the barrel). Bore erosion is exacerbated by continuous full-auto fire (because the metal of the barrel gets softer as it heats up). However, military-issue M4s come with the same 1/7 twist as the M16A2, which leads to faster bore erosion. The official explanation for this is that the 1/7 twist is needed for the longer tracer round, however there is no real need for the tracer to be fired from the M4, and frankly at the short ranges the M4 is likely to be used, the tracer fired from a 1/9 twist will not be that far from the point of impact of the standard ball round. Colt's tried to impress this point on the US Dept. of Defense when the M16A2 was adopted, but were rebuffed, because the 1/7 twist is the NATO standard, so that was that."

http://www.cybershooters.org/dgca/bushmaster_m4.htm


http://www.varminthunters.com/...r15nomenclature.html

Warrior

With all due respect...

WHAT is this post got to do with "the best solid for a 404 Jeff" ????

quote:

The GS solids will either work like death lasers, or hit the target sideways.
Gerard's driving bands are fairly shallow.
The only way to know is to buy a box or borrow some and give them a whirl.

Lawndart,

Could you please share your experience with us when the bullet hit the target sideways. Would love to see a photo of this bullet.

Bullet stripping is not common with standard CIP twist rates in well made barrels - at least not with a smooth sided bullet, unless there is a gross dimensional problem with either the bullet or the barrel. So,if you have a sloppy or 'loose' barrel, this very condition may lend itself towards this happening. If we add the further condition that a bullet is under-sized, then the possibility becomes even greater. Now we come to twist in the third instance; it stands to reason that a faster twist is more likely to strip, especially if it is overly fast - meaning that the pitch angle is increased drastically. I guess 'Driving Band' bullets are just more susceptible to bullet stripping when these conditions apply.

In the above paragraph 3 variables were mentioned, in the following sequence:-

a) barrel dimensions
b) bullet dimensions
c) overly fast twist rates

Lawdart was invited to give us his version what caused the GSC bullet to hit the target sideways.
I have difficulty in believing that there was a bullet dimensional problem with the GSC-FN (Point b)
If point a and b were a combined issue, it is quite likely that bullet stripping could have caused instability.
But may be there are other reasons as well - and this is open for discussion.

It would be appreciated if Lawdart could give us more detail.

Excess spin was brought up, as it sits and wait there (latent) for a variation in barrel or bullet dimensions to manifest itself and then it triggers instability.

Here is another opinion on the twist issue .....

On AR-15 Twists - by Clint McKee

Hi, Clint!

Why do you sell the Krieger AR barrels with a 1/7 twist and the other barrel with 1/8 twist? Instead of the 1/9 twist. Reports from the military say that the 1/7 twist burns out quicker.

We sell Krieger barrels for the AR15 in 1 in 7.75 (that's almost 8!), as well as our NM barrel in 1 in 8. All things being equal (BTW, they never are, equal), the faster the twist, the quicker it will wear out. So, if you want a barrel that will last a long time, get a non-NM chrome lined barrel with a 1 in 14 twist. On the other hand, if you want the best barrel possible, for the best bullets possible, you will need a twist right around 1 in 8 for the Sierra 69 grain bullet (the benchmark cartridge is the Federal Gold Medal Match cartridge, with the 69 grain Sierra) or the 80 grain VLD Sierra (alas, not currently loaded commercially).

Also what bullet (.223) would you recommend for the 1/9 twist?

The U.S. military 62 grain ball (ss109) will work nicely in a 1/9 twist, but also works nicely with the 1/8. The very light bullets, say 55 grain & less, work nicely with a 1/12 to 1/13 twist.

It all boils down to math (and real world considerations like bullet quality, barrel quality, barrel length, assembly technique, ....etc.). The lighter bullets (55 grain & less) need a slower twist rate per Greenhill's Formula*.

Likewise, a heavy bullet (69 grain & more) needs a much faster twist.

Thanks for your attention.
Clint McKee

Firstly, you contradict yourself

quote:

and that is why Colt's M4's are made with 9" instead of a 7" twists

quote:

However, military-issue M4s come with the same 1/7 twist as the M16A2

Secondly, you are talking about M4 trials when it was the X4, experimental. Absolutly no evidence exists that shows a faster twist barrel wears out faster then a slower twist. This would be evident by angled wear on the leading edge of the rifling...it would thin out on the side that grabs. This is not the case. Barrels wear from gas erosion. This is because the gas is 4,500 degrees, and the copper in bullets actually acts like a heat sink. I will spare this thread the rest, but if you would like to go indepth, POST ANOTHER THREAD!

This does not belong here. Drive band bullets increase barrel life, vastly in the case of the GSC bullets, and they do not strip, dive or hit the target sideways. A barrel would have to be somthing insanely oversized, like 6 thousandths for this to happen, if even then. That would be like shooting a 408 in a 416 or something. OK, moving on.

The best .404 bullet would be the one that suits your purpose, regardless of twist rate. Try a few and see. Besides, experimenting is always a good time!