In hopes of drumming up some historical info on the .510 Wells, I am presenting some 500A2/.510JAB material. Loads for the 500A2 are interchangeable with the .510 Wells, right?

Please help Pierre van der Walt collect some ".510 Wells Express" history and load data.

So:

The 500A2/.510JAB is a fun gun. I was looking for old load data for Pierre van der Walt and found these old targets of mine:



That is a one-holer for three shots at 100 yards, with the 705-grain Harlow bullet by AAA Ammo. MV was 2126 fps, a gentle load. Check the back of the target to see the pointy bullet exit wounds of the paper: about a .170" bughole. The scope was merely 5X (1.5-5x Leupold).



And here is a single shot at 540 yards taken with the Sightron mildot scope (4-16X) on 16X when the wind was calm, from a sitting position with the long bipod on the ground, in the cow pasture: 750-grain Hornady A-Max at exactly 2150 fps from the 27" barrel. Low pressure load:



And the tools that go bang:

RIP

That is good loading and shooting!
Fantastic group.

Cheers,

André

Thanks, Andre'.
Putzing around with 50BMG bullets in a 500 A-Square can be fun.
The same kind of stuff you do with your 500 Jeffery Mauser in your spare time?

Who says a Ruger No.1 is not accurate?
Who says a 1:10" twist is not good for a 500 A-Square?

The 400/.395 NE in a Ruger No.1 will be quite amusing too.

Ron,

If Mitch was still here you blokes could compare notes

He use to email me groups he had shot with his 460 and 577 T Rex and they were like yours. Unreal stuff.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Thanks, Andre'.
Putzing around with 50BMG bullets in a 500 A-Square can be fun.
The same kind of stuff you do with your 500 Jeffery Mauser in your spare time?

Who says a Ruger No.1 is not accurate?
Who says a 1:10" twist is not good for a 500 A-Square?

The 400/.395 NE in a Ruger No.1 will be quite amusing too.

RIP

I know
Putzing arounf with them .510's is grand sport.
I have some custom stuff on the way and might be tempted to send you some for testing. Interested?



Cheers,

André

Andre':
Thanks for the picture of the 500 Jeffery loaded for anything.

Nowadays, I do not solicit bullets through the mail, but thanks anyway. I am well stocked at present on bullets for hunting and plinking. If you get some pictures of new bullets, ammo or load data to share, please do. I am always interested in 50 cal developments, especially those applicable to the 500 Jeffery, 500 A2, and 500 Mbogo.

You have inspired me to shoot a few more inspirational pictures to share.

First, some of the "500 Heavies":
Left to right,
705-grain AAA Harlow that produced the .170" group above
720-grain GSC SP
750-grain Hornady A-Max
800-grain Barnes Bore Rider
850-grain GSC prototype



Next some "500 Lights":
450-grain GSC HV
570-grain GSC FN
570-grain Barnes XLC
570-grain Barnes TSX
600-grain Barnes "Original" RNSP
600-grain Barnes brass RN solid



And Barnes, Speer, and Milsurp Plinkers:
647-grain Barnes XBT Cannelured
647-grain Speer Ball (steel core)
668-grain M-33 ball, milsurp
690-grain M-2 AP, milsurp, very accurate as a plinker



Some 500 A-Square loads for my .510 JAB rifles:


And the 500 Jeffery compared to the 500 Mbogo:


You can see that the 500 A-Square loads are only about 3.6" long with most hunting bullets.
There is plenty of magazine room to add 0.1" for a 3.000" max brass length with the 500 Mbogo.

Also note that the 500 Jeffery can be loaded long with many Milsurp and commercial ball with the proper ogive to fit the throat. Right Andre'?

quote:

Originally posted by WbyPower:
Ron,

If Mitch was still here you blokes could compare notes

He use to email me groups he had shot with his 460 and 577 T Rex and they were like yours. Unreal stuff.

Mike

Mike,
Mitch trained me. Alcohol was not involved.

AccuLoad3 reference on the 500A2:

A-Square Manual reference: Any Shot You Want

A-Square Manual reference: Any Shot You Want


And my old pet loads for comparison. I have been meaning to try Varget Extreme and H4350 Extreme as replacements for RL-15 and IMR-4350:

All my load data are from McGowen stainless 1:10" twist barrels, either 23" or 27" length, as specified. The 23" velocities are about 50 to 100 fps slower than in the 27" barrel. All loads were with Norma-made .460 Weatherby Magnum brass. Primer was F215 by federal. No drop tube, minimal compression, no pressure signs:

******************************************************
23" BRNO ZKK 602:
*****************
1) 570-grain XLC /// 110.0 grains RL-15 >>> 2405 fps

2) 570-grain GSC FN /// 110.0 grains RL-15 >>> 2346 fps

3) 700-grain ball milsurp /// 110.0 grains IMR-4350 >>> 2085 fps
******************************************************

27" Ruger No.1:
***************

4) 600-grain Barnes RN brass monometal solid /// 115.0 grains IMR-4064 >>> 2422 fps

5) 600-grain Barnes RN brass monometal solid /// 116.0 grains RL-12 >>> 2452 fps

6) 647-grain Speer Ball FMJBT steel core /// 110.0 grains IMR-4350 >>> 2199 fps

7) 690-grain AP "Blacktip" milsurp /// 110.0 grains AA-4350 >>> 2135 fps

8) 705-grain AAA Harlow /// 110.0 grains IMR-4350 >>> 2126 fps

9) 750-grain Hornady A-Max /// 105.0 grains IMR-4350 >>> 2055 fps

10) 750-grain Hornady A-Max /// 110.0 grains IMR-4350 >>> 2150 fps
*********************************************************

Wow, that is amazing, never thought you could do something like that. How do you handle the recoil? Sometimes I find myself flinching a bit with my "low recoilling hot 45-70 loads", it happens rarely, but mostly when the trigger holds just a bit.

Hi Tyler,
You will notice the muzzle brakes and double recoil pads adjusted for 14.5" LOP for target work?

All that is left is to hang on firmly and consistently while squeezing the trigger carefully with proper breathing ... Zen Masters such as Mitch are also able to decrease their heart rates into the 30's to allow almost 2 seconds between beats to time the trigger break.

Recoil?

From the recoil calculator making no allowance for the muzzle brakes:

750-grain bullet
MV = 2150 fps
12.5 lbs = rifle weight
110.0 grains = powder charge
******************************
Recoil velocity = 24.3 fps
Recoil energy = 115.1 ft-lbs

Both rifles weigh 12.5 lbs with scopes and muzzle brakes. Both have same overall length. Muzzle diameter at 27" length of the Ruger No.1 barrel is 1.000", a heavy straight taper from the 1.200" Knoxform diameter that is 6" of straight cylinder before the taper. The BRNO has a 3" long cylindrical Knoxform and then a straight taper to .875" muzzle diameter at 23" length.

Taking the brake off the BRNO shortens it by 2" and it becomes a 10.5# "gun" with iron sights.

The Obscure .510 Wells in AccuLoad3:

Ron,

We have a barrel maker that is probably our counterpart of your Pac-Nor.....lots of barrels and 1000s of reamers.

One is the 35 Wells. Can you imagine roos, pigs and goats with 200 grain round noses. Joe on www.realguns.com has the 358/378 with the Wby shoulder...a nice touch. But the 35 Wells reamer is very horny.

Mike

Mike,
The "35 Wells Express" does sound quite "racey."
Do you know anything about the .510 Wells? I don't.

quote:

Originally posted by WbyPower:
Ron,
We have a barrel maker that is probably our counterpart of your Pac-Nor.....lots of barrels and 1000s of reamers.
Mike

Mike,
Who would that be???
Cheers...
Con

Tobler.

I assume Robert still has the reamer.

Thanks Mike,
I'll have to find some time and ring and have a good chat. I've emailed and been waiting a week for a price on a .458" barrel for the 458ARs. I know someone has imported a 500ASquare reamer to Australia ... it might be him.
Cheers...
Con

Con,

I don't know if Robert has a reamer for 500 A2. I think Peter Van Meurs (spell?) of Pro Cal has done 500 A2.

Actually there is a reasonable number of 50 bullets from Woodleigh and they have the 440 grain Black Powder Express bullet. Should be ago dpig and roo bomber I think PC has used the 585 650 gran version in his 585 Nyati.

Mike

Mike,
I know Peter van Meurs put a 50/378Wby together a number of years ago, and MAB have access to a 50/460Wby reamer ... but the actual ridgy didge 500ASquare I'm unsure who has it. A rifle was offered for sale awhile back so its probably somewhere unless a chambered barrel was imported, or a reamer rented.

Jeffeoso's 500AR really has my interest ... funding one would cost me my CZ 416Rigby ... then I'd need to build it on a Winchester M17. Very tempted as we're pretty well off in Oz for 50cal sporting rifles. Sprinter makes a cheap barrel (not the best ... but they'll do!), Woodleigh has 440gr, 450gr, 535gr, 570gr and 600gr and Bertram has CHEAP 440's, 535's and 570's. Use Bertram's "reject" 416Rigby brass and a 500AR could be up and running "reasonably" cheap. Mind you Bruce Bertram is making cases for a short 50cal (2.1") with what appears to be a Rigby rim size and 505Gibbs base diameter. No idea what the hell it is ... but it looks kind of funky.
Still yearning for a 50cal ... but first we'll get a pair of 458ARs up and running.
Cheers...
Con

510 Wells loaded with milsurp APIs at one of the first "bubba" gatherings:










(the above rifle now being properly restocked, rebarreled and refinished)

Con,

Is 500AR a shortened 500/416 Improved....same length as 458 AR etc

Forrest,
Thanks. Silvertips, eh? My Blacktip load listed above punched right through 3/4" mild steel at 100 yards.

Your .510 Wells is being done over completely, starting with the Brevex action and rebarreling too? Will you still have a .510 Wells?

Might I suggest something a bit different, the 500 Mbogo:



Fred Wells has recently passed on?
Pierre is getting few responses to inquiry about the .510 Wells Express.

Here is the only other reference I have on the .510 Wells, from John J. Donnelly's book. Sometimes he gets things right, as it appears he did here, but there is no date nor historical information here:


The first 500 A-Square went to Africa in 1976, according to Art Alphin's book. The .510 Wells is supposed to have happened before that.
What year did the .510 Wells Express get borned???

Info on the 500 Buhmiller from the 1950's or 1960's (.510 on either the 378 or 460 Wby case) is even more scarce. John Buhmiller never took it to Africa, according to Jack Lott (Handloader's Digest 13th ed., 1994). The 378 Wby came out in 1953, and "Uncle John" was shooting a ".458 Buhmiller" on elephant and buffalo control before the 460 Weatherby arrived in 1958 with the radiused shoulder to distinguish it from the .458 Buhmiller.

Also, according to Jack Lott:

"By 1965, John's reputation as a top elephant and buffalo control hunter-rifleman had spread to southern Africa, where the Africaners (sic)(Boers) called him 'Uncle John' or 'Oom Janie' as a term of respect."

John Riley Buhmiller was born in 1893, died on July 13, 1975. He claimed to have "calloused ears" long before his death, and he did design and use effective muzzle brakes that reduced recoil by 40% as measured on his "Recoil Meter."

More from Jack Lott:
"Despite several mild strokes and obvious failing powers, John in 1974 was homesick for Africa and wrote to me while I was on an extended trip in Rhodesia that year: 'If that 600 (double rifle) sells, I'll most likely be on my way again. A fellow hates to quit.' "

page 1

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Thanks for posting that

Kalispell, Montana does have a great tradition of fine barrel making.

Noted that Buhmiller did a .423/.378 Weatherby Magnum and wanted to use 500-grain bullets in it for long range shooting.
He also had a ".475 Belted" of some sort.

He finished life thinking that the 450 Ackley equivalent of his with a 6-shot rifle capacity was best for cape buffalo hunting.

So did buddy Jack Lott, I guess.

This article is good biography, but scarce on details of Buhmiller's cartridges. P.O. Ackley Vol. I has a chapter devoted to John Buhmiller's epistles to P.O., but it is not much better in the cartridge or timeline details.

I know I have another article around here somewhere that is a little better on cartridge details. If I find it I will post it.

quote:

RIP: Your .510 Wells is being done over completely, starting with the Brevex action and rebarreling too? Will you still have a .510 Wells? Might I suggest something a bit different, the 500 Mbogo

Ron, yeah, the Mbogo or the A2 makes more sense but I'm so cheap I wanted to retain the original dies so I sent Dave Kiff a spent cartridge and he made a reamer to fit my current set-up. Actually, I'm not sure what my cartridge is. Measurements are closer to the A2 but the dies were made for the rifle by CH4D back in the 60s and are marked 500-460.

At any rate, the rifle should look better with Turkish walnut rather than myrtle, a shorter barrel with express sights and rust blue.

Neat article on Buhmiller.

Forrest,
Understood. New custom walnut stock, barrel and the full works. You are cheap. I am cheaper than you. I will use a McMillan stock to bed a 500 Mbogo.

Excellent reading! Thank you for posting that.

Some interesting paraphrases: "droped an exra primer in the powder column for good ignition" and "bored out 510gr 458 bullets and insterted 375 partitions".

quote:

Originally posted by WbyPower:
Con,

Is 500AR a shortened 500/416 Improved....same length as 458 AR etc

Mike,
Yep ... 416Rigby shortened, shoulder 0.577", case length 2.65".
Bob deVries took a look and liked the case ... but admitted he's a traditionalist and hence prefers the 500Jeffery ... but admits case dimensional variations with the Jeffery can be an issue. Bruce Bertram reckoned its headspace was "iffy" but I think he's thinking as a commercial cartridge it would be "iffy". Mind you shoulder is greater than a 10.75x68.
Cheers...
Con

Buhmiller did not begin the game control shooting until after age 60 years, and he got famous for his abilities, from East Africans to the southern Boers, "Oom Janie." Across the pond he was already famous as a benchrest-accuracy barrel maker, and added more feathers to his cap with his African adventures and wildcatting.

Past 80 years of age, he was scheming about getting back to Africa for another go, minor strokes be damned. Good therapy.

BTW, the P.O. Ackley Epistles did discuss Buhmiller's .416 Rigby load: "Load used, 105 grains 4831, 400 gr. Barnes bullet, velocity on my chronograph, 2400 fs."
"J. R. Buhmiller, July 24, 1958"

That was recalling his earliest adventures in African shooting. I know that Jack O'Connor was a fan of Buhmiller's barrels. JOC used the same load of surplus H4831 back in the 1950's.

Henceforth the 105-grain load of either H4831 or H4831SC for the .416 Rigby is to be called the "Buhmiller-O'Connor Memorial" (BOM) load. Of course the latest H4831's are different than the old surplus stuff. However the H4831's are still THE POWDER for the .416 Rigby. BOM Load.

Con,

If you have a 416 CZ and need to dump it to get the 500 AR....would it not be easier and superior to rebarrel the 416 to 500 A2...I would much rather neck up 460s than shorten and neck up 416 Rigbys.

It would seem to me the 500 AR is about converting standard Rugers.

Mike

Mike,
Very true!! The sticking point is locating the 500A2 reamer in Oz. But your right ... I'll be up for custom dies and maybe a reamer in any case. Might as well go the bigger case!! Maybe I'll do the ASquare late in 2008 ... nice thing about the 500AR was a standard length action could be used.
Cheers...
Con

Con,

I am fairly sure that there are 500 A2 reamers in Australia.

Of course you could just get yourself a Mark V 460 and forget all this nonsense

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by WbyPower:

Of course you could just get yourself a Mark V 460 and forget all this nonsense

Mike

Whatcha talki' 'bout Mike? A MarkV 460Wby ... is not a "fifty" ... I must have a 50 before departing this planet or getting too old to shoot one. The 458AR will come first ... then we'll see what else I can fund late in 2008.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Look at that shoulder!!!!

What took that one so long????
Besides availability of .416 Rigby cases..........
Outstanding cartridge! Don't care much for the M'bogo name, but what a cartridge! Imagine if it was named Rigby....

500 Rigby Mbogo 3-Inch:
That would explain it fully. Sweet.
It has about the same body taper as the 500 Jeffery. It is way more compact than a .505 Gibbs.
It can do way more than the traditional .505 Gibbs and 500 Jeffery loads. It will have lesser bolt-thrust issues than the Gibbs and can be loaded to +60,000 psi for more fun than necessary for any task. Or just use a case full of slow powder for 500 NE ballistics. Same as but just a little bit better than the 500A2 and .510 Wells.

The reamer and barrel have been waiting too long for an action.
I am shooting for 2008. .50-08 is pronounced "Fifty-Aught-Eight."


There is a dearth of knowledge of the 500 Buhmiller antecedent of the .510 Wells Express. Just knowing the years when these were first done would be an earth shaking revelation. The rest is trivia.

Ron,

Have you put a ceiling up for 50 calibre due to recoil or bullets being thin on the ground above 50...or pehaps both

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by WbyPower:
Ron,

Have you put a ceiling up for 50 calibre due to recoil or bullets being thin on the ground above 50...or pehaps both
Mike

Recoil: I really am happy with 500A2 recoil levels, or less.

Bullet scarcity of the over-50-bores: Not a factor when compared to .395-caliber scarcity which I am waiting out.
However there is indeed a happy plethora of .510-caliber projectiles.

And what really matters?

Q: When do you really need bigger than a 50-caliber centerfire rifle?

A: Never. You can do one of the 50's at 10.5 lbs bare weight and not be inconvenienced by carrying it all day, nor slow into action because of the ponderous inertia of dead weight DGR. Even a PH would do well to use a 50 for ultimate power-to-portability ratio (PPR) as a stopping rifle.

DGR PPR = (Muzzle KE)/(rifle weight)
500A2 PPR = (8000ft-lbs)/(10.5lbs) = 762 PPR

PPR for hypothetical SAFARIKID 500 MBOGO:
(8000ft-lbs)/(7.5lbs) = 1067 PPR

Rifles for the Rigby case head are safe to 75,000 psi.

.505 Gibbs head size rifles are safe only to 55,000 psi due to bolt thrust issues.

Having solid safety margins and a case that is easy to feed in a standard Rigby-sized box and action is a plus.

Neal Shirley's 550 Magnum fits my requirements too, but I have not finished with the 50's yet, let alone the .395's.

I could have had a CZ chambered in 500 Mbogo by now if I settled for a CZ, but this cartridge deserves something special. I am going to try to call an action maker again ...

quote:

DGR PPR = (Muzzle KE)/(rifle weight)

That formula has it own "frisbee" guns

If Ed Weatherby brings out a 500 Wby then imagine how upset some of the blokes who have had 460s done with inlaid diamonds and Texas Longhorn horns at the front of the gun.

With the 505 and bolt thrust...what about the 600 OK, 577 T Rex and 585 Nyati. Is Saeed's 577 an Enfield? I think from memory that Mitch was using the 577 at 2500 or so with 750s. Given the case capacities what sort of pressure for 577/750 at 2500 and 600OK/900 at 2400.

Mike