Many will live on the ragged edge but I choose not to.

Ron,

Surely you are not suggesting that RobGunBuilder:

1) Lives on the edge with guns or;

2) Is a fuckwit

The latter is possible because he did support the idea of banning SKSs and the like from ranges etc. A true anti gunner. Perhaps not anti gunner but just a junior pinky finger

Mike

Live and let live is my motto, Mike.

Now back to 500/.510 Belted and Beltless Trivia:

Ken Howell's book has the mysterious ".500 Weatherby Magnum" with the only historical information being "(designer's specs)" on page 414 of his book Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges

Could this be the elusive 500 Buhmiller?
Possibly so! Date uncertain. Buhmiller was wildcatting the .378 Weatherby in the mid-1950's, and did the .458/.378Wby about 1955 before the 460Wby was released in 1958.

It is strange that it uses a .512-caliber bullet. But I can imagine Oom Janie Buhmiller doing that for use of cast bullets of 700-grain weight.



On the same page of Howell's book is also the favorite wildcat of Gil Van Horn. I think Gil was smart enough to know what was enough. Sort of like the 500AR, but Gil had to turn the belts off 460 Wby cases to do his wildcat back when .416 Rigby cases were so scarce. Date? Late 1970's???

quote:

It is strange that it uses a .512-caliber bullet.

Maybe not.

Let me explain I will make this as short as I can, but you will need to stick with me.

My father had guns and I had them on my knee etc. He had 303 and 32/20. When I was about 15 (DOB 1948) we bought a copy of Outdoors, an Australian magazine. New things surfaced like 243, 270 etc.

As things turned out a gunsmith in Australia (now dead) called Don Black, whose father Jack Black was probably our counterpart of your P Ackley...lived only a couple of miles away. My father and Don hit it off and with dad being a motor mechanic and Don a gunsmith...exchange

My interest in the guns intensified and was equally split between big bores (especially the 375) and the fast small bores. Stick with me because we are close to the .512

An older bloke called Alex Thompson had lots of interest but was short on dollars. However, he had obtained a barrel for what I think was called a 50 Spotter. He got the barrel with the idea of making a 50 on an M17. But you could not get anything in Australia so the barrel sat there.

To cut a long story as short as I can....I eyed the barrel and asked Don Black if he could ream out the rifling (about 6 or 7 inchs as I remember) and use a cut off belted case as a breech plug. The belted case was about .512 and so was the barrel. The 6 inchs or so of reamed out rifling was to duplicate the capacity of the 50 BMG.

I won't bore you anymore with what we did but the barrel was .512.

PS. The barrel with reamed out rifling and "breech plug"was fitted to M17. Bullets were machined and cast from adjustable mould. Sometimes we glued a 1/2 X 1/4" cord wad to the base of the bullet and that allowed us "to place" the bullet in the chamber area.

MuzzleLoader in reverse

Mike

Mike,
Thanks for the blast from the past. Little Mikey was wildcatting in his teenage years. Precocious!

Does this mean that 50 Spotter barrels were .512" in the grooves?

More trivia on the 50 spotter, apparently it had the same trajectory as the 106mm M40, not quite as good as a 500A2 with an 817-grain bullet, but it was only 38,000 psi. Why did they need a flash tube primer for such a tiny powder charge? Another accuracy trick? This cartridge does have the accuracy characteristics, eh? There is a typo here, the loaded cartridge was 4.53" long (COL), that is not the length of the brass case:

quote:

Does this mean that 50 Spotter barrels were .512" in the grooves?

The barrel we had was .512"

A bit more "rough around edges" for you.

We had bullets machined from brass and copper rod at an engineering shop.

The bullet mould I had made had "nose cut off", no grooves and adjustable for weight. We sprayed the bullets with moly sulphide. A bullet up to 3" long could be cast.

Don Black also made dies we worked in the vice. We could make bullets from both 308 and belted magnums.

That was refined when I got onto a company that amoung other things made the basis for lipstick tubes. They looked for all the world like jackets.

Holy fuck this making me feel old

PS. I never saw the cartridge but you could tell by looking at the chamber that it was a short 50 BMG. Also, the barrel had a very fast twist. Never measured the twist but when you looked up the barrel it was like looking at a thread. The barrel was unused and parkerised. Looked kind of like a 303 SMLE finish

Mike

Ah ha! Faster twist than 1:15" it sounds like. That makes sense for a slow and long bullet of 50-cal like the 50 Spotter accuracy cartridge. Works well in 500A2 for the 50BMG bullets: 1:10" or no slower than 1:12" twist.

I still can't understand the .512" grooves unless that was just "close enough for government work."

I like the idea of a long neck version for cast bullets with gas checks...


photoshoped version of the 500 AR

Do it boomie.

I think with the 577 and 470 my hands will be tied and full. Me doing that one might never happen. but I will live vicariously through your handiwork on the 500 mbogo and chear from the cheap seats.

Hey boom stick,
Could you tell us which "components" were used to put together the "500 Boom Stick?" What case, with such a gradual shoulder, what angle, what neck length.

Nice photoshop job.

I am wondering if you could morph up a ".177/.378 Wby Short," just for fun. Overall brass length should be 1.5", 40-degree shoulder, .1800" neck length?

Can you do it?

I could give it a go...

the above pic is jeffeosso's pic of the 500 ar but i lengthened the neck by .2" for a .71" neck and 2.85" brass but the length could be longer. I will work on the .17-378 1.5"

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Ken Howell's book has the mysterious ".500 Weatherby Magnum" with the only historical information being "(designer's specs)" on page 414 of his book Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges

RIP,
Bertram lists 500Weatherby cases. I'll be popping through later this month ... do you want me to chase some info up if he has any?
He also is producing a short 50cal case headstamped 500AHN, dimensions as best I can measure are:
Rim: .581"-.582
Base: .612"-.613"
Base to shoulder: 1.585" approx
Diameter at shoulder: 0.595"
Neck length: approx 0.350"
Shoulder angle: Looks around 20-25deg
Case length 2.1"
Any idea what this second case is??? I got the impression its application is "silenced 50".
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by Con:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Ken Howell's book has the mysterious ".500 Weatherby Magnum" with the only historical information being "(designer's specs)" on page 414 of his book Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges

RIP,
Bertram lists 500Weatherby cases. I'll be popping through later this month ... do you want me to chase some info up if he has any?
He also is producing a short 50cal case headstamped 500AHN, dimensions as best I can measure are:
Rim: .581"-.582
Base: .612"-.613"
Base to shoulder: 1.585" approx
Diameter at shoulder: 0.595"
Neck length: approx 0.350"
Shoulder angle: Looks around 20-25deg
Case length 2.1"
Any idea what this second case is??? I got the impression its application is "silenced 50".
Cheers...
Con

Con,
That would be very interesting to hear anything about a "500 Weatherby" headstamp from Bertram. Also the "Short Fifty"/500AHN you describe sounds close to a 500 Jeffery short, but not quite right on the dimensions for that.

I could imagine someone creating something like that by short-chambering with a 500 Jeffery reamer. Then proper reloading dies to squeeze the 500 Jeffery brass down to the smaller base diameter, or get the right brass from Bertram.
Maybe the reloading dies for the 500 AHN are simply 500 Jeffery dies cut off at the base?

Please do enrich us with any info on the 500 AHN also.

Thanks!

RIP,
Will do! Made a boo boo on the short 50's headstamp ... make that 500 AHR.
Cheers...
Con

Ah, so! Then the "500 AHR Short" is a wildcat made by shortening the 500 AHR (American Hunting Rifles' proprietary "improved 500 Jeffery"). Bertram is the maker of 500 AHR brass afterall. It is 2.900" long when uncut.

http://www.hunting-rifles.com




I am still wondering if the 500 Weatherby is the 500 Buhmiller.

John R. Buhmiller is supposed to be the first to do a 500 on the .378 Wby case. He beat out Wells.

Thanks for posting this stuff. It makes for interesting reading for a .500 fan like me.

Incidentally, Bob Bell, who knew Uncle John personally and had an extensive correspondence with him, states in a 2000 Gun Digest article that Buhmiller did use his .378 Weatherby based ".510 Magnum" on the big stuff in Africa.

Bell writes that Buhmiller also used .450 and .470 Magnums that were based on the big Weatherby case.

Interestingly, at least to me, is that Uncle John also developed and used a .510 Magnum based on the cylindrical Norma .375 H&H case. To make it work, he modified the Kynoch .510" bullets to give them a rebated heel. Just like a .22 caliber rimfire slug.

Buhmiller also developed and lathe turned cup pointed German silver bullets for his cartridges.

All of the above is from the Bell Gun Digest article.

BTW, here is one of my targets, shot with my .500 A-Square at 50 yards off the sticks. 600 grain Woodleigh solids at 2,300 fps.

MR,
Thanks for the appreciation.
I think your stick technique must be very good.
That is also a very wise velocity with the Woodleigh Weldcore RNSP bullet and works like a champ, eh?
How about posting your powder charge (2300 fps with 600-grain WWRNSP) and barrel length for general re-edification and comparison to cumulative rifle data?

Thanks also for the 2000 Gun Digest reference. I think I read that article but must have ripped it out and filed it away, and have not relocated it in "the stacks," as I am behind on filing. I too was puzzled by the contradictions between Jack Lott and Bob Bell.

IIRC, the 50/.375H&H used a bullet like a huge 22RF with rebated base, as you say, and I had thought Buhmiller used it and the 500/.378 Weatherby in Africa. May we call them the "50 Buhmiller" and "500 Buhmiller" for convenience?

Edit: I found the article! See below.

RIP,
I was talking with a friend last night that visited Bertram's as a part of a local Military Rifle Club.

It appears the "short 500AHR" may be a Bruce Bertram special ... single stack feed from a CZ action (mate reckons it wasn't a 602 ), with a filthy big silencer on the end. It may very well be the 500AHR shortened to 2.1" with similiar dimensions.

This thread is doing me no good ... 'smith booked to build my 458AR tells me he may have a lead on a 500A2 reamer in Oz. I thought I was happy with my CZ 416Rigby ...
Cheers...
Con

lol I thought about this a few months back to use 470 capstick brass and the .500" S&W bullets with a swaged down base to .475" since there would be no taper for .510 bullets.

I think the 500 MAX design of putting a belt on the RUM brass is better by far.

.500 Buhmiller?

quote:

Interestingly, at least to me, is that Uncle John also developed and used a .510 Magnum based on the cylindrical Norma .375 H&H case. To make it work, he modified the Kynoch .510" bullets to give them a rebated heel. Just like a .22 caliber rimfire slug.

MR, Sir! Your tip was enough to jog me into the stack of black and white pulp to find the article: Gun Digest 2000 54th Annual Edition, pp 82-90, by Bob Bell.

Thanks for the reminder. You are a scholar and a gentleman of the highest Order of the Five Hundred (OFH).

I have become allergic to posting entire articles without written permission of the copyright holder.

A quote is allowed in review:

Bob Bell quoted John Buhmiller on page 82 of Gun Digest 2000:

"I have probably killed more big stuff with the 458 [the standard Winchester magnum cartridge] than any other rifle, simply because we had it as a second gun most of the time. It is not overly powerful, but will kill if pointed right, and one knows when using it that it is rather lacking in power and takes more careful aim. Undoubtedly the best rifle I have ever used is the 510 Magnum, used on last trip loaded to approximate power of the 505 Gibbs. This wildcat can be loaded to over 8000ft/lbs. energy--so can the Gibbs, but not so handily."

Well that seems pretty certain since Bob bell had "a stack of letters from him in the mid '50s to mid '60s and a carbon copy of his fourth hunt diary which he gave me ..."

Seems the Jack Lott article was not accurate on the "500 Buhmiller" and saying that it never went to Africa. Buhmiller seems to be calling it the ".510 Magnum" and may have favored it over the lesser rifles.

Glad you found it.

My load is 115 grains of H4350 in BeLL brass with Federal 215 primers. I have used the 600 grain Woodleigh PP Weldcore softs and the 600 grain Woodleigh solids.

My rifle has a 25 inch, 1 in 14" twist barrel.

I have decided to switch to 570 grain Barnes TSX and Banded Solid bullets for my next safari.

MR,
Thanks for the data, good load data for Pierre van der Walt to make note of.

Great choice with the H4350.
If the monometals crowd your powder space with that powder I would try Varget for temperature stability equal to your H4350.

Start with 105 grains of Varget Extreme and work up to your desired velocity.

When I load heavies (600-750 grains) in 500 Mbogo, I will be using H4350 Extreme.

When I load the light bullets in 500 Mbogo (450-600 grains), I will be using Varget Extreme.

Hey! Looks like I will be trying both Varget and H4350 with the 600-grainers.

My next "safari" is getting Stuart Satterlee to build a 500 Mbogo on a Satterlee Stainless Magnum Mauser in 500 Mbogo. The deposit on an action has been in since December 2006.

He is also able to get a "solid fill" in the action area of a McMillan stock (in the CZ/BRNO Magnum Express style like the one on my 500A2/.510JAB) and inlet it by CNC to fit his action. With 14.5" LOP over a 1" Pachmayr Decelerator, black, Olde English.

My barrel will once again be a 1:10" twist McGowen stainless. Length will be 25" this time.

I will allow chromoly NECG parts for the sights in hopes of speeding Stuart with not having to make them out of stainless. Of course if he could whip them out in a jiffy ...

I might as well go ahead and load some 500A2/.510JAB lights and heavies with Varget and H4350 while waiting for Stuart to build the 500 Mbogo rifle. Loads will go directly from 500A2 to 500 Mbogo interchangeably in my case. Maximum 500 A2 performance with slightly lower pressure shall be had.

Since I have my 500A2/.510JAB's, I can wait Stuart out in comfort.

quote:

Originally posted by Con:
RIP,
This thread is doing me no good ... 'smith booked to build my 458AR tells me he may have a lead on a 500A2 reamer in Oz. I thought I was happy with my CZ 416Rigby ...
Cheers...
Con

Sorry, Con, but if you succumb to a 500A2, you will be in good company.

You may thus become a member of "The Order of the Five Hundred" and earn a title of your choosing, and be called "Sir" by other members here.

I'll start it off by announcing my title, and see if any other Sporting 500 Centerfire Shooters (500 Jeffery, 500A2, .510 Wells, etc.) wish to play along by selecting their titles here, just for fun you know.

Henceforth you may call me :
"Sir Rip, Earl of Cumberland, Knight of The Order of the Five Hundred."

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Henceforth you may call me :
"Sir Rip, Earl of Cumberland, Knight of The Order of the Five Hundred."

I take it "The First" should be added as your not a continuation of a family dynasty of 50cal shooters??
Cheers...
Con

Con,

Since you already own a CZ and like the big bangers I reckon you are making a mistake with 458 AR.

I see the 458 AR (and 416 and 470 AR) as solution to a problem that you don't have.

Mike

Con,
This is a "New World Order" thing. All new members shall be "The First" so it is not necessary to add that to the title. Their heirs may add "The Second" etc. The .50-cal muzzle loader and 50BMG shooters in the woodpile don't count.

quote:

Originally posted by WbyPower:

I see the 458 AR (and 416 and 470 AR) as solution to a problem that you don't have.

Mike

Mike you are behaving like a Baby Ruth candy bar floating in the swimming pool here.
Again.
Real attention-getter.

quote:

Originally posted by WbyPower:
Con,

Since you already own a CZ and like the big bangers I reckon you are making a mistake with 458 AR.

I see the 458 AR (and 416 and 470 AR) as solution to a problem that you don't have.

Mike

Mike,
I take it as a fair enough comment ... but I'm a gun whore on a budget and the ergonomics of the standard length actions and the "package" you can build around it suits me better. I've owned both a CZ550 and Zkk602 and found both to be a bit long for my personal tastes. The CZ550 416Rigby is the "American" model and its stock design and fit makes up for its other shortcomings. The rifle I shouldn't have sold was a Zastava 458WinMag ... standard length action, 4kg weight, 22" barrel in a Butler Creek stock ... it was close to perfect.
Cheers...
Con
PS: I think anything more than x2 378Wbys is a solution to a problem you don't have ... How about putting something in print in the Oz gunrags on the "Stallions".

quote:

and the ergonomics

Con..........

As to the "in print" you are probably right and it needs to be done again.

Mike