Probably the most reliable bolt action rifle the world has ever seen is the std. Mauser M-98 battle rifle in its original form and original calibers of 8x57 and 7x57...That action was designed for those two rounds. I have never seen one of them jam in any way, form, or manor unlesss someone has monkied with it.

It only fails after you invest several thousand dollars in it to make it better and/or change calibers, then it may become quit iffy.

MR

I like beating dead horses though donkeys make a much finer pate, especially if they have been in the sun for a few days
78 gn of MRP in an RWS 8x86 case 198 gn Norma Oryx bullet may be a high load but it is not enormously overpressured.
Feel free to read a letter he posted on the above website.

Hallo Lutz.

Danke für deine Mail. Zur Ihrer Frage kønnen ich folgende antworten. Erst über die Waffe. Ins gesamt habe ich ca. 175 Schuß mit Blaser r 93 geschossen. Ich habe 3 Laufe.
416 Rem. Mag hat mit diesem Lauf 40 Schuß geschossen. Ladung: Primer Fed 215 Norma 203 B 82 grs 350 Grs Swift. Keine Schaden auf die Patronen.
Laufe 7 mm Rem. Mag 50 Schuß mit Norma Orginal Ammo.
Dann 50 Schuß : Primer Fed 215 Norma Mrp 70. 150 grs Norma Match.
Laufe 8 x 68 S. Erst 30 Schuß Neue RWS Hülsen 6,5x68, umgeprüft zur 8x68s. Ladung : primer fed 215. Vithavouri N-160 76 Grs. Kogle
Sierra 175 grs. 30 Schuß.
Dann habe ich 10 Schuß mit folgende Ladung geladen.
3 Schuß: Hütchen Fed 215, Ladung 79 grs , Kogle Norma Oryx 196 grs.
3 Schuß: Hütchen Fed 215, Ladung 78 grs, Kolge Norma Oryx 196 grs.
4 Schuß: Hütchen Fed 215, Ladung 77 Grs, Kogle Norma Oryx 196 grs.
Ich habe erst 3 Schuß geschossen mit Ladung Norma 79 grs. Gute Sammlung 30 mm auf 200 m, keine Problem mit die Patronen.
Dann 3 neu Schuß, und die Schaden bekam ich von dem 2. Schuß mit 78 grs Ladung.
Ich habe es mündlich von Norwegische Kripos bekommen, daß man geprüft hat, das die Powder Norma Mrp war. Das gleiche in Patronen als in der originalen Norma box.
Dann Ihre Fragen.
1. Ich habe die Retrekker normal geschlossen, vorne schieben.
2. Ja, wenn man nicht es richtig verriegelt hat, kann man mit die Blaser R 93 nicht schießen. 100%.
3. Wenn ich mit die R 93 nicht geschossen hat, habe ich kein Problem die Patronen raus der Kammer zu bekommen.
Wie gesagt, ich war früher Offisier in das Bundeswehr( Kapiten) und habe viel geschossen.
Ich habe eine Sammlung Weatherby, alles von .270" - .416".
Ins gesamt habe ich ca. 25 Waffen, und habe min 15 Jahre die Patronen selbst gemacht. Jedes Jahr schisse ich ca. 3000 Schuß.
Jetzt muß ich mich wenden links zu schissen, und es ging ganz gut.
Ich habe neue Waffen gekauft. Schultz & Larsen 7 mm, .300" win, .358" Norma Mag. 6,5-284, und 6,5 x55. Dann .375" H&H Customs von Remington, .300" Rem Ultra Mag, und .308" Sniper "schwerer Lauf". Dann Sauer 202 Kaliber .30"-06, neu Läufe 6,5-06. Dann habe ich bei Sauer in Bestellung . 375" H&H, 8x68s, und .416" Rem. Mag. Und ich bin dabei auch zu überlegen, ob ich mir eine .470" N.E. auch kaufen soll.

Mfg
Jan (Deutsch editiert von LM)

His report does not sound like a newbee mucking around with reloading for the first time. THe only universal lesson to be learned from this is to wear impact resistant safety glasses with all ammunition testing


But hey in the war between fact and belief belief will always win

quote:

Originally posted by MarkH:

I like beating dead horses though donkeys make a much finer pate, especially if they have been in the sun for a few days.

That is obvious to everyone by now.

quote:

78 gn of MRP in an RWS 8x86 case 198 gn Norma Oryx bullet may be a high load but it is not enormously overpressured. Feel free to read a letter he posted on the above website.

I have read it before, since as an R93 owner I have a vested interest in finding out the truth behind this incident. No one should be surprised that this unfortunate fellow would claim that he is an experienced handloader and thereby clearly imply that he made no mistakes when he handloaded this ammunition.

What is amazing is that you believe him, rather than the physical evidence of his shattered rifle and the forensics! No one - not even him, apparently - knows how much or even what kind of powder or powders he used - I say powders because a common handloading mistake is to mix them unintentionally, e.g., by failing fully to empty a powder measure.

Some would call you naive for your willingness to uncritically accept this obviously doubtful and self-serving story.

Others, like me, would be a bit harsher - naive gullibility is an endearing trait in a small child, but not in a grown man.

Still others might try to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge, since you would apparently buy it if given a deed and bill of sale signed by this unfortunate Norwegian gentleman.

quote:

His report does not sound like a newbee mucking around with reloading for the first time.

See above. First time, last time, any time - it does not matter: It only takes ONE TIME. Handloading is NOT FOR THE CARELESS!

quote:

But hey in the war between fact and belief belief will always win.

You said it, brother.

MarkH,

What you for some reason - fail/choose not - to grasp, is the fact that you now are talking about something completely different.

We were talking about possible misfire if the bolt was not in battery, and then you start talking about high preassure accidents.

Let it be clear, that a Blaser not fully closed will not ignite a primer when the trigger is pulled.

The Blaser rifle have 3 known accidents were the bolt has "left the rifle", and all were made by very high preassures. The rifle have been reconstructed after theese accidents, and no accidents have occured after the altenation.
However, there is still nothing that prevents the bolt to fly away when preassure gets high enough, and until Blaser agrees to test their rifles in public, we will not know how "unsafe" they are.

But as for the not closed handle, it is safe as it gets.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
What is amazing is that you believe him, rather than the physical evidence of his shattered rifle and the forensics! No one - not even him, apparently - knows how much or even what kind of powder or powders he used - I say powders because a common handloading mistake is to mix them unintentionally, e.g., by failing fully to empty a powder measure.

Some would call you naive for your willingness to uncritically accept this obviously doubtful and self-serving story.

Others, like me, would be a bit harsher - naive gullibility is an endearing trait in a small child, but not in a grown man.

Still others might try to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge, since you would apparently buy it if given a deed and bill of sale signed by this unfortunate Norwegian gentleman.

quote:

His report does not sound like a newbee mucking around with reloading for the first time.

See above. First time, last time, any time - it does not matter: It only takes ONE TIME. Handloading is NOT FOR THE CARELESS!

quote:

But hey in the war between fact and belief belief will always win.

You said it, brother.

I recall a guy bringing a blown up ruger 77, 7 mag into a gun shop I did gun work for. He claimed to be an "experienced handloader" too. Swore he'd used 68 gr of 785 in the loads. The barrel & action had held together as they were designed to do and all the pressure blew down into the mag well and destroyed the stock & bottom metal. Injury to forearm etc. The gun did very well, in an obviously high pressure situation.
He'd called Ruger to tell them of the blow-up & they offered to give him a new rifle & pay the Dr bills.
I took apart one of the loads (at his bench) and looked at & weighed the powder. The can of 785 was right next to a can of 680 on the shelf. I compared the powders & sure enough, he'd substituted 680. Lord only knows what the pressure of those loads were. He only shot one .
I heard a couple days later, he'd gotten with a lawyer and they threatened to sue Ruger. I immediately called Ruger & offered to testify for them. I also called the lawyer & informed him of my offer . He wasn't pleased...
Steels today are very good, as is heat treating. There is always a reason for a blow up & it's usually operator error. In the old days, a bad batch of steel (flaw etc) or poor heat treat might have resulted in a failure.
You're right, handloading (like flying) is very intolerant of carelessness or negligence.

Greg-

I appreciate you calling Ruger and the attorney. People like this guy cause trouble for all of us because they aren't man enough to admit they are wrong and are looking for "free money." We all pay for that "free money."

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Probably the most reliable bolt action rifle the world has ever seen is the std. Mauser M-98 battle rifle in its original form and original calibers of 8x57 and 7x57...That action was designed for those two rounds. I have never seen one of them jam in any way, form, or manor unlesss someone has monkied with it.

It only fails after you invest several thousand dollars in it to make it better and/or change calibers, then it may become quit iffy.

The fact that you can run 154-160gn pills around the 2900fps mark, means it aint no slouch in the field either!

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
Greg-

I appreciate you calling Ruger and the attorney. People like this guy cause trouble for all of us because they aren't man enough to admit they are wrong and are looking for "free money." We all pay for that "free money."

I will second that!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Probably the most reliable bolt action rifle the world has ever seen is the std. Mauser M-98 battle rifle in its original form and original calibers of 8x57 and 7x57...That action was designed for those two rounds. I have never seen one of them jam in any way, form, or manor unlesss someone has monkied with it.

It only fails after you invest several thousand dollars in it to make it better and/or change calibers, then it may become quit iffy.

Pearls of wisdom.

GVA

I cannot speak for others, but I will not be persuaded of the R93's unreliability until proof is given by way of links written entirely in the universal language of Armenian, with no option for translation.

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Probably the most reliable bolt action rifle the world has ever seen is the std. Mauser M-98 battle rifle in its original form and original calibers of 8x57 and 7x57...That action was designed for those two rounds. I have never seen one of them jam in any way, form, or manor unlesss someone has monkied with it.

It only fails after you invest several thousand dollars in it to make it better and/or change calibers, then it may become quit iffy.

Too bad neither the 7 or 8mm Mauser are dangerous game cartridges.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
MarkH,

What you for some reason - fail/choose not - to grasp, is the fact that you now are talking about something completely different.

We were talking about possible misfire if the bolt was not in battery, and then you start talking about high preassure accidents.

Let it be clear, that a Blaser not fully closed will not ignite a primer when the trigger is pulled.

The Blaser rifle have 3 known accidents were the bolt has "left the rifle", and all were made by very high preassures. The rifle have been reconstructed after theese accidents, and no accidents have occured after the altenation.
However, there is still nothing that prevents the bolt to fly away when preassure gets high enough, and until Blaser agrees to test their rifles in public, we will not know how "unsafe" they are.

But as for the not closed handle, it is safe as it gets.

Hi Bent
I ame a little disapointet with your statement.

Facts
Austrian incident: Komposit housing, high presure
Norwegian incident. Komposit housing(missed the recal) According to Kripos no signs of high presure, but a clear longitual crack in the case.

German (koblens) incidence: ALUMINIUM housing, clear sighns of extreme preasure.

Conklution:
Some experts belive that the kompocithouses could be burned/melted inside by a primerleak, so the locking opened. Those housings were recalled. and replaced with the ALUMINIUM housings.
This ALUMINIUM housing was used in the Koblens incidence.


The "klik" on many Blasers is not dangerus, and is caused by the user not SLAMMING the bolt hard enough. All the kliks i hawe whitnesed the user took the blame, as he would not blame his wery expenciwe mirackle rifle, for beeing dificult to use.

The dificulty with cocking a blaser, mounted with a scope is also generaly ignored by the user. The once that had their rifle fiering unintentionaly, has all blamed themselve. And in the future they never use the "uncocking" feature. Or they cocks the rifle as soon as they hear rumors about game in the nearest county.

I do not want to judge, But sometimes the perfect solution becomes more dangerous, if it is dificult to handle in a stressed situation

Jørgen, thank you for correcting me according to the accidents. Even if debated many times before, I did not remember the details.

AS far as the "klik" and cocking problems, I am a bit dissapointed with your statement.

The Blaser rifle IS a bit different to use than a regular boltrifle - and therefore it must be practised with. The "klik" occcurs when the rifle is not closed completely - the exact same way you will find in the H&K G3 rifle, Colt M16, Rem 870 and many mores. They all have this litlle "edge", were the bolt stops, if not 100 % in battery, and therefore is SAFE. Unlike a M98 - or a S&L, were you can lift the handle a little bit, wich produces the same "klik", but is noway near as safe as the Blaser.

The cocking is absolutely more avkward than a safety on a Rem 700, but more than a regular flag-safety of a M98?? Me thinks not!!

Any new system needs to be practised with before mastering. When one fails to realise that, errors are to be expected.

But that the flying bolt stops peoples from using them, is understandable. It is a unsure factor.
Besides that, a wonderful rifle for the user, if he takes the time to learn to use it.

Jørgen, would you please comment this thread?
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/982106956

Thanks,

JPK,
Your right, I sure agree with that.

However, there are a precious few out there that can do magic with the 98 or FNs and make them into the best of the best.

I have found the old English guns to be outstanding in feed and function, never owned one yet that didn't feed slicker n snot, maybe I am just lucky...

I honestly think my old English .375 would feed a beer can, so I use that for my last round, always nice to chamber a beer after a hot day in the African sun!

quote:

so I use that for my last round, always nice to chamber a beer after a hot day in the African sun!

..perhaps with some biltong too...

Mauser M98...still the best reliable repeting rifle for all hunting..maybe even for the next 75 years or so??

Sorry gentlemen, the Mauser M98 is not reliable enough. It has already been mentioned that:

If the caliber has been modified from its original 7x57 or 8x57 calibers, it may require $2,000 - $3,000 worth of custom work by a master gunsmith.

Its reliability will still depend on case rim dimensions and case rim conditions.

And finally, the Mauser will still go "klik" like a Blaser R93 if its bolt is not fully engaged.

After all, some have insisted that a 100% perfectly functioning bolt rifle must also be "idiot proof".

Cheers

OK Guys

Could those people who like rifles which are overcomplicated and unproven in the battlefields of the world why a M98 is unreliable in anything other than 7or 8mm. Seems that for African hunting a Mauser action in 375 is still the recommended rifle for reliability.Dont hear PH's recommending Blaser 375 over Mauser 375 given a choice. Blaser, Sauer and Heym are all fantastic feats of engineering but you try fully dissassembling and cleaning them of sand and mud camp one night

Mark

this thread makes me want to hug my lever action

chu chink boom... no problem man (in my best jamaican accent)

the lack of lever action failure threads speaks volumes...makes the m98 seem like crap.

Boomie,
That's the best humor I've read or heard all day, but it's been a slow day.

100% reliability is actually not attainable, because for various reasons anything mechainical can fail. I also believe the original military '98 Mauser, in the original Mauser cartridges, is as close to 100% as anything ever made.

I'm a real perfectionist about reliabile feeding, ejection, etc., and have dealt with many models of bolt actions. The ones that come to mind the most are Mausers, Winchesters -
both push feed and CRF, short, medium and long actions; Rugers - old and new versions, short and standard length. Remington and Sako too.

The only ones I had any real trouble with were the Winchesters short action CRF, and I finally gave up on them. The Winchester push feed short action works good though.

The only Mausers I have had trouble with were those that had been messed with, or barreled in something like an Ackley Improved.

I have no experience with the WSM or the ultra mags - short or long. Don't plan of getting such experience either.

All the Mausers I have now, and Winchesters and Rugers are about as close to 100% as can be found. I get rid of the trouble makers. Some required very little tweeking, and others a little more. The actions requiring the least were the Rugers MK II, both short (308) and standard (30-06) and Magnum (300, 338 etc.). In fact, I have never had to do anything with a Ruger MK II action to improve feeding, ejection, etc., except one. They have all been slick. The one exception is on a short magnum action I had rebarreled to 450 Marlin. The feed ramp had to be opened a little for the big blunt nose rounds.

So, usually it is not necessary to spend a lot of money to get the 99% reliability, unless you are dealing with a cartridge / action mate that is not used as originally designed. In which case, sometimes skill pervails, sometimes luck happens, and sometimes the problems multiply.

If we all used '98 Mausers in 8x57, then we would have little to talk about concerning mechanical reliability.

KB

the alaskan guide ed stevens has to put his life on the line and when he does...he is using a lever action...chu chink boom...no second guessing.

but back to the bolt...crf all the way

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
this thread makes me want to hug my lever action

chu chink boom... no problem man (in my best jamaican accent)

the lack of lever action failure threads speaks volumes...makes the m98 seem like crap.

I was kinda thinking the same thing boom stick, esp in a Winchester/Browning 1886 chambered for a 45-90~~~ ~~~~ but that would be sooo rube-ish eh?

Well, so much for 100% reliability. Yesterday, after work, I took my favorite Ruger MK II out for a little exercise, and had a misfire. It's been a long winter for it too apparantly.

This highlights the point that there is a lot more to the 100% reliability issue than feeding & ejecting.

I don't know yet what caused the problem, but I'll sort it out before taking it hunting. I was using handloads, and used a batch of rather old CCI mag primers. That could be the problem, since I used up the fresher primers, and found those in the back shelf. Could be several things.

I like to shoot a rifle often, to establish assurance with it that these issues aren't just hiding, lurking and waiting to happen when I'm actually hunting, or otherwise actually need that 100% reliability.

Of course, I could save myself some trouble, and take Boomies advice, and trade all my bolt actions in for a lever action.

KB

KB

Excellent post. RCR's "Old Man" can pound sand. The value of a truthful hunter is beyond measure.

Cheers

Reliability is of little importance to me these days unless I am hunting something that can bite back and my big bores work.

If a buck deer or elk escapes me over a jam, then I will verbally abuse the sucker and remember how much work it is to pack that big sucker out.

If a rabbit or rock chuck escapes my rifle over a foul, I can also live with that.

The only thing that will freak me out these days is if my rope gets a kink or figure 8 in it.

Where is the 100% perfectly functioning Rifleman to proof the rifles. Meaning, he never short strokes the bolt, never miss feeds ammo into the magazine, every handloaded (factory stuff too) round goes BANG (@ full velocity), and always hits his mark everytime.

Keith

hunting is more art than a science...good points hog killer

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
and always hits his mark everytime.

Keith

I thought I was in for a chance there until that last bit.
Seems like you'll have to settle for Shootaway.

Is someone looking for a Rifleman?

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
and always hits his mark everytime.

Keith

I thought I was in for a chance there until that last bit.
Seems like you'll have to settle for Shootaway.

I didn't get it until the moron posted. Now I can hardly type for the laughing!

JPK

Now that's not nice. He's just colourful is all. . . Maybe even gaudy.