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I have read may post on this forum about the high cost of a 100% reliable rifle, as well as the fact that only a few gunsmiths are are capable of building one. My question is what goes into making a 100% reliable rifle. Where is the money spent. I'm talking about pure function not looks. Thanks DR B | ||
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Absolutely nothing is 100%, but it can be very close - out of a gunmakers shop. But in the paws of the owner, even the best gun in the world can fail. The idea is to make it simple and sturdy, like a win70 trigger compared to a Rem 700 trigger, where the latter is more likely to gunk up than the former. No plastic or funny alloys on any part of the gun. Well fitted parts - also includes the rifle fitted to the customer. Extraction is a vital point, were some extractors are better than others - but I have seen all kinds fail. Above all, feeding. And this is were the amateurs are parted from the pro's. BUT: Any gun NOT maintained properly, can fail. Any trigger or safety can gunk up. And ANY gun can be short-drawed and jammed when the user looses his wits. And last, shooting. Know your gun! I would rather go to africa with my old Rem 700, than a new gun made by D'arcy Echols, if I had no time to shoot the latter befor the trip. And I am not talking about 50 rounds, I am talking at least a 1000 rounds fiered and cyceled in all kinds of positions. THIS is were any flaw in the gun will be detected, and were your confidence in your gun is borne. Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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In early 90s I bought couple of those ZKK 602s at closeout prices from Action Arms. Maaan, those things were 100% reliable. I would not stick my finger into the mag for fear of slicing my finger, but after 200 shots or so things seemed a lot better. Crude finish but certainly reliable guns. | |||
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What would need to be done at a minumum for a factory hunting rifle to be considered reliable enough to go on an African safari? And at that ....how mnay bone stock rifles make the trip? I am guessing that the vast majority off rifles taken are mostly stock offerings that may just be tuned. Anyone else have input along these lines? | |||
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I can honestly say that most of the production rifles I've owned needed nothing at all to make them reliable feeders. You may have to adjust the OAL length of the ammo with some bullets but I have just not had feeding problems with bolt rifles. All of mine get shot a lot as well, not just a couple boxes a year. I never go a week without shooting a rifle and handgun both. Obviously some folks have a lot worse luck than I do. I have a Whitworth .375 and a Ruger .416 Rigby that are bone stock that I would sure not hesitate to take for dangerous game. That .375 functions like it's a part of me by now. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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Many rifles appear reliable at the range but will fail in the bush. For example, I watched as Buzz Charlton cleared a jam from his RSM 416 Rigby - it wouldn't feed Federal Sledgehammers because the flat front caught on the ramp when cycled at speed. For example, bump the bottom of your Mod 70's or close clone's bolt handle hard with the heel of your hand when the safety is fully on. Good chance you have bound up your safety and it will not release without pushing the bolt handle down. For example RSM and CZ cracked stocks. There are dozens of issues like this that don't ussually show up at the range where things occur at leisure. Not many guys work out their rifles before going. But it is only the odd case where a rifle's shortcomings will get you killed so they get away with it. I don't think you need 1000 rounds to find the issues if you actually go looking for them. But it couldn't hurt either. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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I think any new rifle should be tested for feed with dummy rounds fast and slow at least 500 times, fixed and started all over with another 500. Then try it with loaded stuff and shooting. I always polish the action out, do a trigger job if needed, glass bed if needed, cross bolt big bores, whatever. I do what I think needs doing, thats about all anyone can do, then hope all is well, fix it if its not working until it works. Don't think for a moment a double can't fail you or any other make, brand, model or caliber, whatever. Made by man it will fail, and its hard to find a fine firearm thats not made my man these days. I prefer a control feed rifle over a non control feed rifle for dangerous game. Others do not care one way or the other. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I think this is a good place to spend it: www.rbbigbores.com | |||
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My Blaser R93s and my Steyr SBS Forester have both been 100% reliable right out of the box. But they are clearly the exceptions to the rule and are not perfect, since they lack excellent iron sights. Plus, there is always functionality to consider, as well as reliability. To get a mass produced Mauser 98 derived bolt rifle gunsmithed to 100% reliability and functionality, be prepared to spend a couple to three grand on the careful attention of a pro. With the focus on feeding, extraction and ejection, smooth functioning (i.e., polishing the action), strengthening (relieving the tang, glass bedding, adding double cross bolts), replacing factory sights with robust, Recknagel express sights (most factory sights, except for the CZ's, are junk), adding a good recoil pad, etc. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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It does seem hard to accept that in this day and age 100+ year old technology requires additional monies be spent for basic reliable function outside the original purchase price. | |||
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"Dr B: 100% perfectly functioning bolt rifle" No such thing. Among mass produced rifles, the closest in my experience is the pre-64 M70, also pre-war German Mausers, 50s vintage Huskys pretty slick too. NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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The more I spend on a rifle the more problems I have with it feeding and ejecting. Most bone stock factory rifles I have owned are 100% in the feeding and ejecting department. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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I paid $200 for my Mk X 458 and then spent three or four hours working on the feed rails and smoothing things up. It has worked 100% for the past twenty four years and now is as slick as a bolt rifle gets. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Snowwolfe: The more I spend on a rifle the more problems I have with it feeding and ejcting. Most bone stock factory rifles I have owned are 100% in the feeding and ejecting department. DITTO | |||
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I must agree with this statement! I have a 30/06 in Win M70 PUSHFEED that I've owned since it was new in the box in 1986, it has been hunted really hard in all kinds of weather from dusty to solid rain to snow and mud as well as a thousand rounds through it and never a hickup. I would take it to Africa in a heartbeat for plains game and a Leopard. It has never failed. I have lots of other rifles like that as well and no one has laid their hands on them and they seem to function flawlessly. However I have an older Ruger M77 tang safety 22/250 that has had a feeding hitch since I bought it new in 1977 and I've never had it fixed i just keep shooting it. | |||
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I am with snellstorm....I ahve had owned at least a dozen different factory rifles have fired and cycled 100's of rounds through each an never a hitch. I wonder how many "malfunctions" are operator induced...I suspect lots Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Making bolt actioned rifles feed correctly is not rocket science and factories do know how to make them feed and operate with amazing regularity. Especially in the commonly available rounds. Where problems typically occur are with the bigger rounds used for dangerous game. In order to feed correctly magazine and rail geometry need to be correctly dimensioned but, in order to keep costs down, the factories commonly try to adapt the same magazine boxes and often times don't even change the rails. A lot of average gun plumbers turn them out the same way or else try using aftermarket magazine boxes that may -or may not - be properly dimentioned. Like anything else, it takes someone with both talent and experience to make the big ones work 100%. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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In line or centre feed and doubly so for rounds like 458 Win/Lott with blunt bullets. If staggered feed then totally controlled by the magazine as in 303 SMLE or Mark V Wby. A CRF stagger feed is the best of all actions to watch working.....but an in line feed when all alse is equal will win every time on being reliable. Even if God makes a CRF it will still depend on case rim dimensions and case rim condition. Mike | |||
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You can never use perfect when mechanics are involved but in 45 years, no Remington bolt has ever failed me. | |||
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 I thought April Fools was over? | |||
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I must be really lucky. I've got a Rem 700, left hand bolt, that has had the factory barrel and two others (3 different calibers), that feeds every time. Its last and current caliber is .375H&H. No, I haven't been to Africa with it, but it has been used to back up other hunters when things went wrong. My grandsons shoot it with 265gr cast bullets and 18 gr of Blue Dot. They love to shoot at a buffalo head target I have placed at 50 yds and work the bolt as if it was charging. Even then, it hasn't malfunctioned. .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
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I don't think any machine can function w/ 100% reliability. My M70 was 100% w/ the bullets I fed it at before my trip to Moz. Everything worked fine, no problems. Then I get home & start playing w/ the flat nose solids, about 33% FTF. I had my smith tweek things abit but I still get the occasional FTF. So, it's not 100% w/ that bullet but there are other bullets.  LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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Both Steyr, Blaser, Remington, Tikka and all others of the Push feed breed are commonly known as "sofacannons". They work well there, smooth and silky. But take that sofa away along with the shell(house) you may find them quite less reliable when dust, water, snow, ice, sand and rust invade their perfectly machined plasticaluminiumalloy. I don't say that all mausers are perfect cause there is no perfect gun. A perfect gun is one that has many friends of its kind. :-) ------------------------------------- Hmmm, coffee is good. Too bad that without it my head goes bananas. I should quit but hmmm, coffee is good! ------------------------------------- | |||
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458Win and SuperSpeed are on the right track. One of the many reasons the original Mauser design is so reliable is the geometry of the magazine. This is the sort of thing the factories scrimp on. It also separates the men from the boys in the gunsmithing biz. | |||
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That is an absurdly overbroad statement, if I may say so. Do you speak from experience with respect to Blasers, Steyrs and the other rifles you indict? I have to ask because you seem to assume that I do not. Believe it or not, I have actually used my R93 rifles in dust, heat, water, snow and ice, quite extensively, on two continents and in four countries, and they have never failed. Although I have not yet hunted with my Steyr SBS, so far it feeds, extracts, ejects and generally handles as smoothly as just about any other rifle I have ever tried. And incidentally, both my R93s and my SBS are far more accurate than I am at any distance. I don't own a Remington or a Tikka, so I must withhold any comment on them. On the other hand, I did have a Mauser derived bolt action (CZ 550 Magnum) fail once in extremely dusty conditions - owing to operator error, I will admit. A bit too much oil, which got gummed up by the dust, and which bound up the trigger mechanism and the safety. As others have said, most of the problems with big bore bolt actions of the Mauser variety are feeding problems. The original Oberndorf rifles were designed around particular cartridges - definitely not one size fits all, as many of today's variants seem to be. The rest of the commonest big bore bolt rifle problems generally relate to stock splitting, flimsy sights, improperly fit or adjusted extractors, etc. It takes a good gunsmith to fix these things. And a good gunsmith costs a fair bit of money, which is as it should be. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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The one thing a Blaser R93 isn't is 100% reliable  whichaver way you package it.Mark Hunting is getting as close as you can, shooting is getting as far away as possible. | |||
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I love the comments from the uninformed and inexperienced.  Why let the facts, no matter how contrary, stand in the way of one's opinions?  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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I also used to think that Blasers were a piece of ugly over engineered crap that would break as soon as it saw hard use.... Then I started thinking, why is it that every blaser basher has never owned one and everyone that does own one (or 10) think the world of them? I have never heard an actual owner complain of malfunctions due to adverse conditions or parts breakage. Have any of you? If you think they are ugly, thats one thing, but to say they are crap that is prone to breakage and malfunction is (according to actual Blaser owners I have talked or corresponded with that hunt the world with them) incorrect. In fact, they are starting to grow on me... | |||
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I must be luckt too. My LH 700 Rem is also on its third barrel. So far she's never missed a lick. Its been everywhere in every kind of weather. I must really be lucky because I have had probably 20 of them and still have not had a malfunction. My oldest one started out a 30-06 and when it was shot out I did the 280 on it. Now its a 35 Whelen. If its luck, I will take it.  | |||
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Depends on the level of delusion. Anyway what could be more fun than poking fun at people that have a Blaser they rise to the bait every time. There is a great void between clever and precise engineering and elegant functional design. Of course they work and are precise they were made by Germans. I have used them on 2 continents for hunting and have had one misfire which IMHO puts them in second place to a good Mauser98 action every time. Mark Hunting is getting as close as you can, shooting is getting as far away as possible. | |||
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Mark, I don't know why your R93 misfired, but I have heard people complain about that once in a while. In my experience, that comes from failing to push the bolt forward to its fully seated position. Something that I have never had the least trouble doing, but that others seemingly have had problems with. After reading the complaints of those who said they experienced misfires, I was able to induce them in my rifles by failing to push the bolt fully home. But that is simply operator error and can be easily overcome through proper usage. If the misfire was the result of some other problem, and I don't necessarily rule that out, since any machine can fail, then it seems to me to be a simple matter of returning it to the maker for repair. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Spot on, mrlexma! Wich is exactely the same that will happen to a M98 if the bolthandle is lifted slightly. But nobody has ever blamed that on Mauser! Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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Old Sako Safari Grade (AIII action) in hard-hitting .416RemiMag, or Remi 700 Safari Stainless with Kevlar reinforced stock. | |||
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Think about it guys Yes both action can cock but not fully lock and the action can fire off. With possible bad luck of a proud primer its possible for the cartridge to fire without the action fully locked on both systems. The force is directed backwards agaist the bolt face in a relativly linear direction. Blaser bolt could come back and hit the fool operator who did not lock it properly. With a turn bolt that would involve anticlockwise rotational movement before it could come back. You need to look at the failure rate in 1000,000's for mauser type action in the hands of average users compared to 1000's of Blasers in the hands of a more selective group of users ie people who can afford to play with expensive German firearms. Hunting is getting as close as you can, shooting is getting as far away as possible. | |||
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Mark H, I would love to see the data Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I'd concur with those, and add the early Ruger 77's were about as trouble free as any I've used. I've based a lot of custom rifles on them & (pre-Garcia) Sakos. "You can lead a horticulture, ... but you can't make 'er think" Florida Gardener | |||
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MarkH, Besides data, wich I would also like to see, I would like to see a primer egnited, if the handle has not been closed on a Blaser. That will NEVER happen. That the Blaser is rather dangerous if the preassures is to high, is another story. Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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Heres a thought to ponder....suppose you do build, invent, find, etc. a true %100 functioning bolt rifle......now you have to look into finding %100 functioning ammunition....from tip of bullet to back of primer...to quote Marlin Brando, "The horror, the horror".......... | |||
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Bent You could ask your fellow Norwegian what happens if the primer goes off.  or check this link http://www.jaktogfiske.net/0404/aktu_fikk.htm I would call it 'a life changing event.' As far as data is concerned about Mauser bolts flying back into peoples faces I cant find any though given two World wars I'm sure its happened. Blaser I have two articles and photo's. http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Zylinderverschluss/Zylin...#R93-Waffensprengung IMHO there is a fundermental design flaw. Perfe tion could be a Blaser that will not fire at all until the bolt is 100% shut and not relying on an obedient customer base adapting a reloading technique to fit the design fault. We had enough of that with the British Army SA80 Mark Hunting is getting as close as you can, shooting is getting as far away as possible. | |||
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Again with the one-eyed Norwegian handloader of enormously overpressure ammunition? Mark, you need to stop beating this dead horse. The R93 DOES NOT FIRE when the bolt is not closed. The firing pin falls, and the bolt moves into battery, but the round DOES NOT FIRE. Moral: USE AMMUNITION LOADED WITHIN SAAMI OR CIP PRESSURE LIMITS AND CLOSE YOUR BOLT!  Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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