I love all this talk of recoil and how to deal with it, etc., etc.

Here's some perspective.

The Recollections of William Finaughty: Elephant Hunter 1864-1875:

"You sportsmen of to-day, just imagine what it was to carry all day in the blazing sun a heavy old muzzle-loader with your powder loose in one jacket pocket, a supply of caps in another and your bullets in your pouch. Add to this a gun that "kicked" one's shoulder with almost as much force as the bullet struck the elephant, and you can believe me that it was no child's play. In fact the recoil was so great that I was more than once knocked down by it and on two occasions I was taken completely out of the saddle. One's shoulder was literally black and blue after a day's elephant shooting.

. . . We came across any number of elephant spoor and on the following day I got hold of them with my twelve-bore breech-loader, and I never had such a punishing time in my life. I was using home-made cartridges. The bullets I had moulded myself and made very hard, and the cartridges were filled almost to the top with fine powder. The recoil was awful, and it makes my eyes moist even to-day to think of it. I did not feel it so much at the first two or three shots, but afterwards each shot brought excruciating agony.

. . . On the following morning I could not lift my arm. My shoulder and chest were simply black and blue, very tender and greatly swollen. Suffice it to say that I could not use my arm for a fortnight and it did not increase my admiration for the newly-invented breech-loader, for elephant shooting at any rate."

Where is a Decelerator when you need one?

Good article. Really makes one think!

I had the opportunity to shoot an 8 bore falling block cartridge rifle at the World championship double gun shoot two years ago.

You didn't have to ask anyone if you'd pulled the trigger.

The Big Game Rifle Club Nationals are coming up over here in late July. You've just got to love this from the flyer:
"Two lucky raffle ticket holders will win (if physically approved) the right to fire the 4 Bore Nitro rifle!!!!"
If "physically approved" ... wonder what that would entail? Thankfully no assessment of mental state is required
Cheers...
Con

Mr. Lexma:
Thanks for the lines from Finaughty. Baker said his "Baby" would spin him around, although I can't recall him feeling too ill-used by it. Selous, on the other hand, said he very heartily regretted ever having anything to do with his old Dutch muzzleloader. These were some very tough fellows, indeed. Their experiences do put into perspective our little cartridge guns, don't they?

The late Tony Barnes of Twin Falls, Idaho made himself a nice little 4 bore double, and shooting it was an experience to say the least..I would not suggest hunting anything with it.

To me it was a beatiful wall hanger, and should Twin Falls ever come under attack, I know where to go to get a tank stopper.

Rob will say the 600 overkill
neal will say the 550 magnum
and i'll say the 550 express are the thresholds for humans to be able to carry all day, shoot VERY well, and be both under 12# and have no muzzle brake...

jeffe

Where's Safarikid with his 4 bore?

Dr. S

he is hunting in south america right now. Ducks actualy...hope he is not using his 4 bore

quote:

Finaughty

He must be nuts. Shooting from horse back is about like committing suicide......

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:

quote:

Finaughty

He must be nuts. Shooting from horse back is about like committing suicide......

Not so, my friend. The earliest African big game hunters, and even some later ones, hunted their game - up to and including stampeding elephant - from horseback.

Of course, the horse had to be properly trained, which is to say, deaf.

Excellent Quote MrLexma,

I love reading about the old time hunters(Pre smokeless). Finaughty was one tough dude. Stigand was no wimp either (having your pectoral muscle ripped from your ribcage by a Rhino has to sting just a bit).

Well,I am back and left a trail of Blood on the prarie!We shot almost 850 Ducks and Geese(more geese)I am totally spoiled for ever with Waterfowl!..Yes,I wish I could have mowed down entire flocks with both barrels om my 4 bore loaded with 5 ounces of #2's!My 22" barrels would have been perfect as they came right in for the sunflower seeds left by the farmers!....OK,Recoil,no problem,but what gets you after a day in the bush is carrying a 26 pounder,so now I use my head,not my back-The gunbearer carries the 4 bore double and ammo,I carry the "Lil"gun,my 9 1/2 pd lightweight 600AHR Megabolt!(soon to be replaced by a 10 1/2pd 700AHR GMA 19" SS barrel Beauty!(NO Brake!)

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
he is hunting in south america right now. Ducks actualy...hope he is not using his 4 bore

Some of you guys are really into pain...

My 458 Lott gives me about 73.4 Ft Lbs of recoil with a 500 gr bullet going 2300 fps.

That is enought for me.

jro45, my 458 lott kick alot sharper than alot of my bigger stuff.I really seemed to feel it smack me pretty good, even though the 458 is not a really huge caliber.

Finaughty must have been using the 7-dram load in the 12-bore, and I will be trying that load soon with a big-ol' pumpkin ball.
But, I'll bet, as he says, he was using fine powder----not something I'm gonna do-it's dangerous. 3f powder can blow a gun if stacked that high. And they say black has no pressure--yeh-right. 3f or finer loaded like that is an accident waiting to happen.
However, I still can't see how even the 7-dram load would be that bad with recoil. He really must have been using some fine powder--not something I'd want to duplicate.

And yes, my .458Lott has a sharper kick than some of the larger bores. All it is, is the pressure range. The Lott is "way" up there with pressure in full loads. Once past .510 cal. and it all seems to fade into the same thing-not really knowing how much difference it is, or caring, just knowing it's a lot and just going with it and rolling with the punch. Can't fight it, so you just have to roll with it, and maybe have a cigarette ever so often.
I spent yesterday checking my sights with the Ruger RSM Lott, and after 30rds sitting, I felt nothing. But later last night, I developed a slight pain in my neck and a headache.
This morning it's all gone.
But, after game, that many shots are not needed, so it's no big deal. Plus, after game, your not shooting from a bench or shooting "cold". After game, I have never really noticed recoil at all, because of adrenaline, which makes it all a "blurr" more or less. If a person is shooting cape-buff, and at that same moment is griping about recoil, then that is where I would have to question that persons priorities in life.
Plus, for me anyway, with bigger stuff, I can't afford monetarily to burn high-priced components at that same rate, so that its-self kind of puts a limit on things, and sort of "checks" myself when out shooting.
Under normal hunting conditions, I'd have to say that most anyone can hunt with as big a gun as they want, and have no ill effects, if they take all factors into consideration.
Where it becomes different,---the old-timers like Finaughty had the wonderful privilege of hunting in a time when you took not one bull elephant, but layed down as many as you could in the shortest amount of time, with guns that, firing blackpowder, had a larger recoil tendency than smokeless because of, and get this, "powder density", which increases recoil, much like 4831 feels like it kicks harder in my .500n.e. than the rl-15 does. There is a difference you can actually feel. Burning a handful of the black stuff is going to really be an experience.
Thank God for Cordite.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
Some of you guys are really into pain...

It's not bad, it's just your rifle speaking to you, and saying "hello", and "if you do your part, I'll do mine".

quote:

Originally posted by bigdoggy700:
jro45, my 458 lott kick alot sharper than alot of my bigger stuff.I really seemed to feel it smack me pretty good, even though the 458 is not a really huge caliber.

What make is your rifle mine is the CZ 458 Lott
Safari Classic. The recoil isn't sharp at all with it.

walksfar,

You are correct, sir. Finaughty later remarked that he had heavily overloaded those cartridges.

He later loaded them down and had equally good results.

Jro45,
I have 2 458 Lotts, one is a ruger m77, and the other is a ruger #1. The ruger #1 feels pretty wicked. It is a little lighter than the m77, but feels like it kick alot more. I have a CZ 550 that has been rechambered to a 450 dakota. With full house loads it gets 6700 ft.lbs, and yet I do not feel the recoil with it nearly as much.

I own the book.

The Recollections of William Finaughty: Elephant Hunter 1864-1875.

Don't recall if there was any indication as to Bill's stature. Would be interesting to know if he was average 19th century sized Euro-Guy.

5'-6" and 150lbs or so.

I believe hunting from horseback was conceived to cover greater distances with heavier gear and to get out of the way when Dumbo was pissed.

We regularly use a Weatherby Custom in .460 at about 11.5 lbs. Barnes X 500 Grain, 118 grains of RL19. With the factory break installed it's interesting but 20 rounds in a set is fine.

Posted a couple new comparison photos for recoil fanatics.

A 9.5 lb 600OK has got to be it with 2300fps loads. Anything more requires stupidity in large doses and the ability to ignore the survival instinct!. We definately are talking Darwin award material here-Rob

giffen and howe has ~8# 505 gibbs for sale, looks like it has a rubber band for a recoil pad... and, like it's hardly been fired..

Where's the G&H .505?

As close as I could get

If you follow the link, and scroll down to "Kimber 89" It takes you to a 8# 11 oz 505 Gibbs built by the previous incarnation of Kimber.

Sorry, I couldn't figure out how to directly link to the rifle

8 pound 11 oz .505 Gibbs

Nice looking but a lot of money for a Kimber. Needs a bigger pad - L.O.P. made for a Gnome.

Apart from the fact that the Kimber .505 shown above would kick the snot out of you and otherwise clear your sinuses with each shot . . . I agree that it is overpriced.

It also seems rather poorly executed.

The metal work looks two-toned (but is otherwise pretty nice) and the wood looks like it came from a coffee table. The recoil pad is practically non-existent. I also agree that the LOP is too short for a big bore and would be a problem for me and most "normal" sized people.

Still, it's probably quite a bit gentler on the shoulder than Finaughty's muzzle loader or 12 bore breech loader!

I shot a friend's 458 WinMag a few times as a teenager and it did not seem to recoil nearly as bad as my RSM 458 Lott. Think the Win Mag was an older Winchester. That Lott in a Ruger bolt is brisk. I still need to chrono my loads. My handloads of 748 had more kick than the factory Hornady rounds, but not much. Jez, I was shooting a middling amount of 748 and was compressing the load. It is much different than loading for 223 or 6.5x55.

Sure whatever muzzleloading contraption Old Bill used was ugly rough in the recoil department. However, I'm sure our True 2-Bore Breechloader is significantly more powerful on both ends. Here's a case size comparison.



500 S&W, 45-70 Govt, 700 NE, S&H 2-Bore

With a handle, that would make a great beer stein.

That Kimber 505 Gibbs must be extremely muzzle heavy. No balance whatsoever. To balance that rifle it would need to weigh 11 lbs. +/_ .

More like a shot glass with 970 grains water empty. I prefer my beer in half liter quantities.

Could be a typo. Maybe it's 11 lbs 8 oz. and not 8 lbs 11 oz. Makes more sense given the profile.

What's that 600 OK cost on the front page of your site. It's most attractive.