Anybody made one? At least a dummyround?

it could work .. more shoulder than the 10,75x68

Rip has some. Maybe he would be so kind as to post some pics. Seems all his pics are down from his old posts.

Why would anyone want one of those when they can have a 458 AR

there's that.. from a very critical eye, the AccRel is larger, cheaper, and more sources of brass.. the ruger is unrebated .. your call!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
there's that.. from a very critical eye, the AccRel is larger, cheaper, and more sources of brass.. the ruger is unrebated .. your call!

Would a 404 based 358 AR need a new reamer?

Seems there is about 5 thou diff on the casehead from 404 to Rum brass.

What Jeffe said, plus ONE!!

Rich

Boomy,
375 ruger obviates any .358 ..i, for one, aint paying $1,000 for an inferior caliber!

now, start talking of a 340 ruger/accrel .. there;s a BEAST

OOPs!

Typo!

Sorry, I meant will a 458 AR need a new reamer if using 404 parent brass to eliminate the rebate.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Boomy,
375 ruger obviates any .358 ..i, for one, aint paying $1,000 for an inferior caliber!

now, start talking of a 340 ruger/accrel .. there;s a BEAST

no boomy .. rim diameter as nothing to do with reamer .. you could use an unrebated rim, if you wanted custom brass ... for NO REASON WHATSOEVER

I was thinking of the unrebated AR not that it makes a diff at all. Yes no special reamer is needed for the rim but I was thinking about the 5 thou thinner casehead.

quote:

I was thinking of the unrebated AR not that it makes a diff at all

IT DOES MAKE A DIFFERENCE !!!

It not bad enough we have that POS 600 OK becomming the standard mother big bore - and the other rebated wonder the 500 schuler. Now I learn all the AR rounds are rebated. And why? For the convince of the gunsmith. This is the Winchester mentality all over again. My way or the hiway.

I though the AR ctgs were some great idea, std length ctgs based on 404. This is a disappointment indeed. Ruger knew better. Ruger is no Winchester.

How much rebate? Like the 460 weatherby, or a horror like the ok or the schuler line. I know the specs are on that pay-per-view site.

the small rebated rim on the AR family is no problem at all. And if you later wish to use 404 brass to form the AR rounds - then no problem, just a small change on the bolthead.

OK, I accept that it works. But it is a shame, the spec was written like that. A rebate, I assume to save one step at the gunsmith end. Even Ruger, did not pinch pennies and make a decision like that. As you say "a small change"

Fourbore,
It makes ~.013 total difference .. about 4 sheets of paper, or .0065 per side.. as the AccRels are based directly off the RUM... At the time of design, RUM brass was 0.42 per vs $2 bucks per 404 brass. Its not enough to be the problem of the 500 jeffe, and FAR less than the 284 or 460 weatherby based rounds.

trivial, in fact, and if you ever wish to make one, and want to use 404 brass, it will make no difference.. just have your gunsmith open the bolt face, if its required... and it probably WON'T be needed, as most magnum bolt faces are sloppy.

btw, the 404 is also rebated, actually .. just ,.003 usually, but if ANY rebate is bad, its important to keep the same standard

Bent

I could probably make one for you, unfortunately I have a lot of basic brass! I was having a vision with Capoward of a .500 based on that case to fit in an un-modified Winchester M70 standard action. Not one of the RARE Ultra very modified Win M70s! Win M70s in 300 winchester are a dime a dozen on every street corner! But still the ruger based case is a little fat in the unaltered magazine. But I was sure it would work, so I have about 700 + pieces of basic brass! I will see if I can form one up, see what it looks like.

All the B&Ms and 500 MDM are based off the Ultras, Like Jeffes AR cartridges, zero issues with those after many 1000s of rounds worked thru the guns!

Michael

quote:

Fourbore,
It makes ~.013 total difference .. about 4 sheets of paper, or .0065 per side.. as the AccRels are based directly off the RUM... At the time of design, RUM brass was 0.42 per vs $2 bucks per 404 brass. Its not enough to be the problem of the 500 jeffe, and FAR less than the 284 or 460 weatherby based rounds.

trivial, in fact, and if you ever wish to make one, and want to use 404 brass, it will make no difference.. just have your gunsmith open the bolt face, if its required... and it probably WON'T be needed, as most magnum bolt faces are sloppy.

btw, the 404 is also rebated, actually .. just ,.003 usually, but if ANY rebate is bad, its important to keep the same standard

I stand corrected, sounds like a nit pik scenario. My only defense is the pay per view access for the drawings and bad memory as this was probably all well discussed since I joined a year ago. It still would be nice to have an open source of drawings for any semi-popular or better wildcat. When someone asks for suggestions, just say here you go, look for your self, and you dont need a credit card to get in.

I would still nit pik just enough to think, Remington could have gone with the 404 head. Just for sake of sticking with the standard, if nothing else. then you say it falls withing the tolerance anyway, so.....

Bent,
I posted the dummy photo of the .458 Ruger long ago.
Will dig it up and post it later.
I have been sidetracked by the .458 B&M.
That packs .458WinMag ballistics into a smaller and lighter package than the .458 Ruger.
Yes, it has the micro-rebate of the RUM casehead too.

4B..


the drawing is accurate .. if you want to use an unrebated rim, you are welcome to do so, it doesn't actually impact the case in any way.

the links are in my signature, for case drawings

we put EXCURCIATING detail into ammoguide, as well as loads, drawings, feedback, vels, barrel lengths, primers, etc etc etc etc ...

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Bent

I could probably make one for you, unfortunately I have a lot of basic brass! I was having a vision with Capoward of a .500 based on that case to fit in an un-modified Winchester M70 standard action. Not one of the RARE Ultra very modified Win M70s! Win M70s in 300 winchester are a dime a dozen on every street corner! But still the ruger based case is a little fat in the unaltered magazine. But I was sure it would work, so I have about 700 + pieces of basic brass! I will see if I can form one up, see what it looks like.

All the B&Ms and 500 MDM are based off the Ultras, Like Jeffes AR cartridges, zero issues with those after many 1000s of rounds worked thru the guns!

Michael

Yes I know I'm moving a glacial pace but will have a M98 Mauser in 50 MDM finished this year so don’t give up all that basic brass quite yet.

Jim

HEH HEH!!! Hey man, I am holding on to it for stock! It will be here when you need it no worries, unless of course I try to make something out of it? Been thinking getting tired of Big Bores, might make me a .10 caliber and use that brass for that. Maybe about a 10 gr bullet at 10000 fps or something? Have to put a flat nose on it, measure the meplat, but would have a hard time even seeing the bullet I think?


M

The funny thing about the .458 Ruger is that it will alow the use of regular .458Winmag ammo if one has a mausertype extractor.
Othervise it is beyond doubt that the AccRel is a superior cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
The funny thing about the .458 Ruger is that it will alow the use of regular .458Winmag ammo if one has a mausertype extractor.
Othervise it is beyond doubt that the AccRel is a superior cartridge.

I’d not thought of this but it is a quick and viable option for M98 Mauser as well as M77 Ruger users. One could run the .375 Ruger or .416 Ruger reamer into the .458 WinMag chamber to set the body and shoulder shape and then use a neck reamer to slightly lengthen the neck to maintain the Ruger case length.

It was sufficiently interesting to upsize the .375 Ruger in QD, transferred the data to QL and then ran a comparison against the .458 WinMag and .458 Lott. So here goes:
Legend: 22.0 barrel, 500gr Barnes BND SLD bullet:
.458 WinMag: Pmax = 62366 psi
Overflow Case Capacity: 95.0grs; Usable Case Capacity: 65.4grs
65.1grs H335 = 2096fps, 4879ft-lbs @ 62224 psi – 100% powder burn
.458 Ruger: Pmax = 63004 psi
Overflow Case Capacity: 108.0grs; Usable Case Capacity: 75.1grs
71.6grs H335 = 2168fps, 5216ft-lbs @ 62216 psi – 100% powder burn
.458 Lott: Pmax = 62366 psi
Overflow Case Capacity: 110.0grs; Usable Case Capacity: 78.7grs
74.0grs H335 = 2187fps, 5312ft-lbs @ 62281 psi – 100% powder burn

I acknowledge there are other powders that could have enhanced the individual performance of each cartridge but H335 gave very good performance from all as well as giving a valid indication of the potential benefit of the .458 Ruger wildcat or commercial cartridge.

Edit: Double Oops!! forgot - I haven't worked one up but yes the .458 AccRel (.458 A.R.) would have greater performance than all.

Thanks for the interesting comment Bent.

Please understand rthat this is not an implied knock on anyone, or any calibre. I am asking a question to which I do not know the answer.

Why is there desire or need for another .458 for bolt guns? We have the .458 Win Mag, the characteristics of which are well known. We have the .458 Lott, regarding which no comment is necessary.

So, why?

quote:

Originally posted by mauser93:
Please understand rthat this is not an implied knock on anyone, or any calibre. I am asking a question to which I do not know the answer.

Why is there desire or need for another .458 for bolt guns? We have the .458 Win Mag, the characteristics of which are well known. We have the .458 Lott, regarding which no comment is necessary.

So, why?

Lott velocity in a standard length action?

quote:

Originally posted by mauser93:
Please understand rthat this is not an implied knock on anyone, or any calibre. I am asking a question to which I do not know the answer.

Why is there desire or need for another .458 for bolt guns? We have the .458 Win Mag, the characteristics of which are well known. We have the .458 Lott, regarding which no comment is necessary.

So, why?

Or in the case of the 458 B&M---458 Winchester performance in a WSM action, with an 18 inch barrel and 2-3 lbs lighter!

In the case of a 458 AR--458 Lott performance in a standard action, and 20-22 inch barrel.

In the field, where one has to tote this around from daylight to past dark thirty, it makes a hell of a difference!

Michael

lott or better in a 20" barrel .. standard length action .. get a ruger or mauser setup for a "mag", put a $100 AB barrel on it, and have a SERIOUS big bore rifle, putting out right at 6000ft/lb, in an "Everyman's" rifle .. got a 7 remmag? rebarrel it!

Why? well, if you don't get the long-actions-cost-a-boatload-more issues, and that modifying-a-standard-action-costs-cubic-dollars, and most-custom-rifles-cost-basement-of-2kUSD .. then I guess there's no reason.

but, if you get
6K ME
.458 500gr bullet
LIGHT gun
standard action

then you get the BM, AccRel, and Rugers ..

if you don't get it, well, then you won't get it.

and if you aren't a big bore shooter, none of it matters .

why have a car that can do over 85 (max legal POSTED speed in the us)

With the 458-404 getting 500 @ 2400 above that I'd go with a larger bore.

Go team 500AR!

Rugercats:
.375
.395
.416
.423
.458

I am doing a .458 B&M, because it will equal or exceed a .458 WinMag in a shorter and lighter action than even a standard Mauser, or Ruger Hawkeye.

quote:

Originally posted by mauser93:
Please understand rthat this is not an implied knock on anyone, or any calibre. I am asking a question to which I do not know the answer.

Why is there desire or need for another .458 for bolt guns? We have the .458 Win Mag, the characteristics of which are well known. We have the .458 Lott, regarding which no comment is necessary.

So, why?

M93

From your alias I presume you like Model 93 Mauser rifles. Myself, I’m into M98 Mausers.

You’ve heard many reasons from others for the need for another .458 caliber cartridge; myself I believe the more cartridge varieties there are the better it is for the gunowner.

However, I do have three very valid reasons for you.
Reason #1: The .458 WinMag cannot reach 2150fps with a modern 500gr FN monometal solid bullet.
Reason #2: The .458 WinMag cannot reach 2300fps with a modern 450gr FN monometal solid bullet.
Reason #3: The traditional .458 Lott solution to the .458 WinMag shortcomings require modification to the rifle action to accommodate the 3.6” overall cartridge length; more on this in the foregoing.

The traditional solution is the .458 WinMag anemic performance is to run a Lott reamer into chamber and viola the magic numbers are reached at slightly less pressure levels. The alternate solution is to reduce the weight of the modern FN monometal solid bullet.

Now, I acknowledge that if the .458 WinMag is chambered in a factory rifle whose action is designed to accommodate the 3.6” overall cartridge length though factory configured for the 3.4” cartridge length then the cost to accommodate the .458 Lott cartridge performance enhancement solution will not involve substantial expensive.

However, if the .458 WinMag is chambered in a factory rifle whose action is designed to accommodate the 3.4” overall cartridge length, and the factory performs extensive action modification to accommodate the longer 3.6” cartridge length, then the cost to accommodate the .458 Lott cartridge performance enhancement solution will definitely involve substantial expense.

But, if the .458 WinMag is chambered in a factory rifle whose action is designed to accommodate the 3.4” overall cartridge length, then the cost to accommodate the .458 Ruger cartridge performance enhancement solution will not involve substantial expensive.

To assist in the evaluation, I’ve included a second data comparison using a lighter weight FN monometal solid bullet.

Data Comparison #1:
Legend: 22.0 barrel, 500gr Barnes BND SLD bullet- Sectional Density = 341
.458 WinMag: Pmax = 62366 psi
Overflow Case Capacity: 95.0grs; Usable Case Capacity: 65.4grs
65.1grs H335 = 2096fps, 4879ft-lbs @ 62224 psi – 100% powder burn
.458 Ruger: Pmax = 63004 psi
Overflow Case Capacity: 108.0grs; Usable Case Capacity: 75.1grs
71.6grs H335 = 2168fps, 5216ft-lbs @ 62216 psi – 100% powder burn
.458 Lott: Pmax = 62366 psi
Overflow Case Capacity: 110.0grs; Usable Case Capacity: 78.7grs
74.0grs H335 = 2187fps, 5312ft-lbs @ 62281 psi – 100% powder burn

Data Comparison #2
Legend: 22.0 barrel, 450gr Barnes BND SLD bullet- Sectional Density = 306
.458 WinMag: Pmax = 62366 psi
Overflow Case Capacity: 95.0grs; Usable Case Capacity: 71.6grs
71.3grs H335 = 2263fps, 5116ft-lbs @ 62185 psi – 100% powder burn
.458 Ruger: Pmax = 63004 psi
Overflow Case Capacity: 108.0grs; Usable Case Capacity: 81.3grs
77.8grs H335 = 2331fps, 5431ft-lbs @ 62231 psi – 100% powder burn
.458 Lott: Pmax = 62366 psi
Overflow Case Capacity: 110.0grs; Usable Case Capacity: 84.9grs
80.2grs H335 = 2350fps, 5517ft-lbs @ 62288 psi – 100% powder burn

It’s easy to identify that a .458 Ruger would provide performance very close to the .458 Lott, exceeding both the 2150fps and 2300fps benchmarks at Lott pressure levels, while maintaining the 3.4” cartridge overall length action.

And should additional performance be desired from the 3.4” cartridge overall length, Jeff’s .458 AccRel can be chambered for little additional cost…if any…and the Lott performance is easily exceeded at Lott pressure levels or easily matched at lower pressure levels.

Anyway this is my rational.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Rugercats:
.375
.395
.416
.423
.458

I am doing a .458 B&M, because it will equal or exceed a .458 WinMag in a shorter and lighter action than even a standard Mauser, or Ruger Hawkeye.

[i]Photo’s intentionally dropped from quote.

RIP… Very nice set of Cats! But that .458 needs to be corked with a nice FN monometal rather than that unstable RN. I'm surprised its not sulking in the corner.

Thanks, RIP!
That shoulder is better than I thought!

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
And should additional performance be desired from the 3.4” cartridge overall length, Jeff’s .458 AccRel can be chambered for little additional cost…if any…and the Lott performance is easily exceeded at Lott pressure levels or easily matched at lower pressure levels.

Anyway this is my rational.

Exactly.. And thats why I have initiated a build of a 458 AR, will use a Border cut rifle 1-10" twist CrMo-barrel and a BRNO ZG 47 action. Stock will be a MCM. Barrelfinish will be so called QPQ treatment - a kind of nitride treatment of both interior and exterior of the barrel. Will make it extremely corrosionproof (better than stainless steel) and make the surfacehardness/wearresistance better..

My gunsmith was so turned on by this project, that he actually decided to build one for himself as well in the 458 AR

Jeffe, just a thought but would a 7mm Rem Mag on a Savage be an easy change of barrel to the 470 Acc-Rel? Inelegant but economical with a good trigger. Packy???

quote:

Originally posted by packrattusnongratus:
Jeffe, just a thought but would a 7mm Rem Mag on a Savage be an easy change of barrel to the 470 Acc-Rel? Inelegant but economical with a good trigger. Packy???

yep .. or 416 or 458 AccRel

the 458 ruger has the same shoulder as the 470 AR .. works everytime!

the "other" thing about shoulders .. they cause a venturi, as the change the mechincal flow of gases .. which is why the 450 ackley and 450 alaskan out perform their closest running mates (458 lott and 45/90)

Good strong shoulders help!

Reason #1: The .458 WinMag cannot reach 2150fps with a modern 500gr FN monometal solid bullet.
Reason #2: The .458 WinMag cannot reach 2300fps with a modern 450gr FN monometal solid bullet.
[/QUOTE]


Reference: Barnes Reloading Manual Number 4:

page 406: 450-grain Banded Solid: 79 grains H335 = 2385 fps; 79 grains TAC = 2379 fps.

page 407: 500-grain Banded Solid: 72 grains H335 = 2183 fps; 72.5 grains TAC = 2194 fps.

AND ALL THAT from a 24-inch WISEMAN barrel, and COL at 3.310"!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

quote:

Reason #1: The .458 WinMag cannot reach 2150fps with a modern 500gr FN monometal solid bullet.
Reason #2: The .458 WinMag cannot reach 2300fps with a modern 450gr FN monometal solid bullet.

And they say "Ignorance is bliss."

Reference: Barnes Reloading Manual Number 4:

page 406: 450-grain Banded Solid: 79 grains H335 = 2385 fps; 79 grains TAC = 2379 fps.

page 407: 500-grain Banded Solid: 72 grains H335 = 2183 fps; 72.5 grains TAC = 2194 fps.

AND ALL THAT from a 24-inch WISEMAN barrel, and COL at 3.310"!

Bob

No, "Ignorance is bliss", is to rely solely on maximum load data from a single source.

To save wadded panties from all corners of the Forum, pro and con, I’m fully aware that with today’s modern technologies that the .458 WinMag can finally and safely match the “500gr 2150fps” benchmark. Some arrive at or exceed this benchmark by just loading beyond the cartridge Pmax when possible while others utilize any/all combination of modern the technologies - improved performance gun powders, slanted groove rifling, and bore riding bullets.

From LoadData Website:
Barnes Reloading Manual #3, 24” Shilen barrel: 500-grain Solid: 75 grains H335 = 2152 fps, Comment: maximum load
Barnes Reloading Manual #4, 24” Wisen barrel: 500-grain Banded Solid: 72 grains H335 = 2183 fps, Comment: maximum load
And from both Manuals: Warning!... maximum loads should be used with caution…

I’m 61 and desire to be around well after my youngest grandkids get past their teenage years.

So just call me “Blissfully ignorant” for I choose to start with the lowest Pmax powder charge level derived from multiple sources for the specific bullet and gun powder; then incrementally work my loading up from that point to identify the maximum safe loading for my firearm. I embrace all proven modern cartridge technologies available to enhance performance. Regardless I’ll select the most accurate load over the maximum velocity load when their charge loads diverge.

Just for fun, some Newtons:



.30, .33, .35, 9.3, .375, .40, .416, .450.

Hi Jim,

Actually, I deleted the "Ignorance is bliss" theme, as in reflection it wasn't as smart as I thought in the beginning, but I guess you were composing a response.

Anyway, your post was quite emphatic with the words "cannot reach". I'd say "cannot reach" in some rifles or circumstances, like a 22" barrel or with the wrong components.

I'm 74 and have 13 grand "kids", who are really all adults now with their own jobs and some are getting educated. My oldest grandson and wife are expecting their first in about four months, so that will make my wife and I great-grand parents!!!

I've been around this game long enough to know a couple of things: 1)I agree, that manuals are guides only, and 2)I've not blown anything up yet! A very few sticky cases and two blown primers (that I recall)in many years of reloading almost anything from a .22 Hornet to the .458WM. So, in the end I really trust my experience more than manuals and I do have a computer program that gives pretty good "guesstimates" of where I'm at.

Best to you,

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Hi Bob,

Just returned home and yes, obviously they did cross paths.

And yes,

quote:

Anyway, your post was quite emphatic with the words "cannot reach". I'd say "cannot reach" in some rifles or circumstances, like a 22" barrel or with the wrong components.

you are absolutely correct. I should have been an explicit list of qualifiers in my original post as I full well knew some can some can’t.

Ha! I beat you. My wife and I are a blended family for close to 22 years now and have 18 grandchildren and I think last count was 4 great-grandchildren with another on the way. Geez, I really lose count sometimes. Have a few GCs below teen years and currently six in teen years all raising havoc with their parents; we really have a laugh when we hear, “Where’d that come from, I never acted like that when I was growing up!”

Enjoy that new grandbaby! Best to you also,