After reading the 450 thread ..got me thinking...Has anyone ever built a 444 bolt rifle? Would the ruger action work on this one too? Speer uni-core 300gr. bullet or hornadys 265gr. should be pretty good little sledgehammer/thumper at bayonet range? I just have never heard of this one in a bolt action but seems better to me than a ruger 44mag.bolt gun....77/44. I have allways liked the little 444 and thought it a nice round for deerWhats your thoughts on this build and would it be a little easier to get to feed than 45-70 or 450?

There are a few examples of rimmed cartridges being successful in bolt actions, such as the 303 British, and the 7.62x54 Russian. The 44 Mag feeds well in the rotary magazine of the 77/44, and that's the best setup for feeding, unfortunately it's only applicable to the 77/44 - for 44 mag only. Ther are probably several other examples of success with a rimmed cases in a bolt action - the Siamese Mauser comes to mind - but generally the rimless cases are the choice for reliability in a bolt gun magazine.

Personally, I wouldn't consider making anything on a bolt gun that has a rimed case. It's just asking for trouble. I wish the old Russian military rifle that used the rimmed 7.62x54 was of better quality, because it might have potential, but unfortunately it's just junk.

Incidentally, I had one of the 77/44s, and it was the most inaccurate rifle I ever shot. I tried working with it, and spend good money bedding, etc. - no improvment. I finally traded it off. I figured it was because it is really the same action as the 77/22 and basically has no front recoil lug, and rear bolt lockup. The action or maybe the whole assembly springs or something. I think the gun is inherently flawed, by design and will never live up to accuracy potential of the 44 mag.

Regards,
KB

Thanks KB,I didnt know the 444 was rimmed,My bad mistake... i was thinking it was not rimmed,I have shot them before ,but never owned one...i agree i would rather have a non-rimmed round in a bolt action.The 444 would be pretty cool little thumper in a double or drilling though! I allways wondered about those 77/44.I think they discontinued them last year......
Thanks again!

Blackbear,
Two cool rimmed cartridges I recently "discovered", which long time ago were made for doubles, drillings or single shots - are the 9.3x74R and the 450/400 Jeffery. I have an Encore barrel in 9.3X74R, and it's fun. It has good thump, but the .411 bullet in 370 gr. or so at 2200 fps would be special too.

Regards,
KB

Yea ,I would like to get one of those new ruger#1 in the 9,3x74r ...I almost bought a double rifle in that caliber a few years back.. but didnt know anything about it,that was before i found AR forum and all the great knowledgeable shooters on here! I dont buy any shooting magazines anymore,this place is way MO BETTER and has lots more in the field test info .I hope Hornady & federal will make the ammo .The 450/400 jeffery sounds like a zinger too but i dont know if i could shoot it with out getting a flinch! I bet it rocks on both ends! I was looking thru some old rifle stuff the other day and found a round that was really neat looking.It was a 577 snider!I couldnt figure out why a a cool looking old round like that ever went away.I think it was the round the british faught the ZULU with in the old days but am not 100% sure.I liked the way the fat little round looked though....Kinda like a wsm greatgrandfather round!Any way its great big time fun learning all this gunnut stuff!Iam truely at the right place here,theres gunnuts around here galore......
Good shooting!

Boomie,
I'm surprised since I thought you were an advocate of "noooo belt, and nooo rebate"

BlackBear,
Although the rebated 284 winchester brass could work, it's difficult to justify any wildcat, and remain anywhere close to straight faced practical.

That's why the 9.3x74R and the 450/400 are at least on the list, because they are standard chamberings, and brass, and ammo can be bought.

If a wildcat is on the menu, at least wait until the new 375 Ruger brass becomes available, then consider that as a basis. .411, 416, 423, or 429 Ruger ??? Hummmn

KB

dont worry kabluewy...i have not changed religions but sometimes i go visit other churches

the 284 idea is just an idea of how to max out yer 308 in a cheap way

Good one boomstick! I like it!

KB,I thought the same thing about the new 375ruger brass wildcatted.416 would be my choice. GOOD one!

Many years ago we held a postal match for the shooters.com board. The guy who got the most style points used an Enfield in 444. I don't remember whether it was a SMLE or a P-14, but either one could be made to fly with enough money.

The 450 Marlin would work in a short action and might even feed.

Texas riflemaker Charlie Sisk has done some big-bore wildcats on WSM cases; he might be able to help you out.


Oie John

"I wish the old Russian military rifle that used the rimmed 7.62x54 was of better quality, because it might have potential, but unfortunately it's just junk."

Gentlemen,
This is not to start an arguement or meant to offend anyone, however; having faced and used this rifle in Vietnam and now it's use here in Iraq I can assure you it is anything but junk. The cartridge is a .308 class round and the weapon is very well made.

The action is not conducive to sporterizing for sure, due to the split receiver but it is a well made and accurate rifle. Just wanted to clear up this image of the M91 that's all.

SFC E7
"Ain't as long as it has been and ain't as short as its gonna get" under 60 days!

Specifically I was referring to the Mosin Nagant in 7.62x54R. And no Sir, I am not offended at all. I appreciate your opinion, which I am sure is well founded from having been shot at with one.

As a military weapon of years past, it was world class, and probably one of the most deadly devices for killing folks as ever invented - right up there with the Mauser '98. There is no way to count the number of people this weapon has killed. Plus it has taken many thousands of moose, bear, wolves, stag, and boar, etc. in Russia, Siberia, Findland, and elsewhere.

The 7.62x54R (.311) Russian and the 7.62x53R (.308) Finnish cartridges are indeed powerful, inherently accurate, well designed, and still popular in many places in the world today, and probably will be for a long time.

I have an Encore barrel chambered in the 7.62x53R for .308 diameter bullets, and it's a great shooter. Lapua makes high grade brass in this caliber, which makes it inviting in a precision rifle.

My reference to the Mosin Nagant rifle was strictly from a sporting point of view, and specifically relating to spending money for custom work using the action as a basis. In my opinion it would be a waste of money, because the action by design can not be modified satisfactorily, compared to a Mauser '98 or Springfield for examples. There are plenty of other options, which would render better results, resale, etc. - for sporting use.

Sure, if someone wanted to use it basically unaltered to just shoot, it would be difficult to wear out. I'm sure many more people around the world will be shot with one of the Mosin Nagants, and many more moose will be taken.

Best Regards,
I'm counting the days with you.
KB

Did this some years ago just to see if it'd work. It did. Used a 93 action and a rimmed magazine from a siamese mauser. had to do some mods on that magazine, more than I anticipated than at the beginning. Opened up the front shortened it and notched in the back IIRC. Got the stuff to do another one day. It was a good hog gun.

The moison nagant magazine is for all intents and purposes unsuitable to modify to any other chambering. I bought one despite warnings to make a 480 Ruger carbine out of, and it's been sitting in the safe ever since.

Ken Howell did make a rimless wildcat that was effectively a rimless 444 the headspaced off the mouth. If one was looking for a relatively easy -06 based conversion it would be an option.

The Enfield P14 would be your best bet. You may have to machine a notch into the receiver back bridge to allow the .444 room to eject. The Siamese mauser boltface and extractor were designed for a much larger rim and would require way too much machine work to retrofit to the .444.
Consider a SS rolling block action instead of a bolt action. I made a .444 Marlin for a buddy of mine on an old rolling block( originally in .43 spanish) and it turned out to be a real sweet gun and fun to build. Be aware that in .444 most barrels from the major suppliers have twist rates designed for pistol bullets not the long heavy bullets needed for big game. Thats why the .444 Marlin has basically been stuck in the role of a deer/black bear caliber.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
dont worry kabluewy...i have not changed religions but sometimes i go visit other churches

the 284 idea is just an idea of how to max out yer 308 in a cheap way

Boomie,
I thought the 358 Winchester did a pretty good job, maxing out the 308 length/boltface receiver - the cheap way - much cheaper than a wildcat.

Regards,
KB

Although a little off-topic, I have to agree with the comments on the MosNagant and its effectiveness. One of those "earned" me a purple heart and almost a trip in a body bag. My right lung and skin on the surface still show the results of that shot! Gotta get me one of those some day, just to hang on the mantle.

There is Ken Howell's 429Express (444Rimless) that headspaces off the case mouth and can be chambered in an M98. I've corresponded with David Whyte of Precision Rifleworks and he's built quite a few 308Win and 30/06 length "444rimless" rifles with reportedly great success. His 308Win length version pushes a 240gr at 2300fps from a 21" barrel. Years ago I saw a No4 chambered to 444Marlin that a 'smith was building just to see whether it would work. As he put it "If you were paying me to get the feeding sorted out ... you wouldnt be building it!" I think he ended having to use a Mossberg .410 shotgun magazine to get it working properly and reliably. I think you can source faster twist barrel than the standard 1:38" but you still fall foul of softish projectiles for the really big stuff. Having said that I'd personally still love to try a 444rimless in an M98.
Cheers...
Con

As far as rimmed rounds in bolt guns go, Remington made the 788 in 30/30 and if I remember correctly didn't alot of Siamese Mausers get chambered in 45.70?

Navy Arms made L-O-T-S of Siamere Mausers in 45-70 some years ago. Wish I'd kept either one of mine.
There is a company converting late model british smellies to 45-70 and selling complete rifles for $499. Since the very first original Lee's were chambered for the 45-70, it seems appropriate somehow. They tried to sell the design to Sharps, but they saw no merit or sales future in a boltaction rifle...famous last words. There is also a gentleman selling "blueprints for the original Lee stocks and how to rework a smelly to fit. Could be a nifty woodsrunner rifle.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
As far as rimmed rounds in bolt guns go, Remington made the 788 in 30/30.

Yes, when Remington first introduced the 788, it was made in 30-30 and 44 Rem Mag. I owned one of the 44 mags and it was fun, but never did feed or eject quite right. I owned several of the 30-30s. As I remember this was back in the mid-70s. I liked shooting the 30-30 so much in the Rem 788, that I used to buy every one I could find used - in the gun shops. I think I owned six at one time. They could be bought cheap then. I lived in the south then, and they made perfect deer rifles. I also bought up as many of the extra magazines as I could find.

I had one of them rebarreled in 375 Winchester right after that round was introduced. Date that, and you'll know the time period I'm talking about. It fed correctly, but it didn't work out well - accuracy was way off. I think it was not the correct twist rate, so that was a dissappointment. But it was my first custom barrel.

Eventually, I moved on to other rifles, but I still miss my first 788 in 30-30. It had a nice factory walnut stock and all, and was very accurate. I lost count of the number of deer I shot with it.

It's still so nostalgic even today, that I bought one of the Contender frames and stock, with the intention of getting barrels in 44 mag and 30-30 so I can enjoy shooting and loading for those two fun cartridges again.

Regards,
KB

I still have a left handed 788 in 308Win that I bought new in 1975.