just wondering why so many gunguys are ones to run right up and say "you don't need ABC cartrdige" or ABC is the same as BCD ...

this is gun gragging liberal talk ...

Don't give them any more ammo than they already have

Oh yeah, guys... the WSM was released january 2000 .. it sure has wilted away, hasn't it?

A good trial lawyer once told me "never, NEVER, N-E-V-E-R! EVER! ask a witness on the stand a question unless you know all the possible answers and none of them will hurt your case.

So, unless you and the other moderators here want to ban discussions/comparisons of new VS old(er) cartridges you will just have to live with the honest exchange of opinions and personal anecdotes.

It's supposed to be fun...

Rich
not taking anything said to or about me here personal...

The word "need" should be eliminated from the shooter's vocabulary

Jeffe,
I’m fairly new to the AR Forums and enjoy the periodic lively discussions over whose (insert favorite caliber, rifle, etc. here) as they’re about as close to the classic BS’ing over a (insert favorite drink here) in the (insert favorite BS location here) and only have run into the individual who only pees on everyone’s shoes without understanding that his short shooter has soaked his along the way. Plus along with these lively discussions some extremely good information is passed along.

Rich and I have had a few back and forths regarding the .375 Ruger/.416 Ruger cartridges but as he’s stated he only dislikes Ruger’s markets methods not the cartridges…and I don’t think anyone can keep up with the marketing folks when it comes to slinging the BS!

Mike,
Eliminate “need” only if it does not equate to “want” which equates to another firearms or cartridge in the quiver.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Mike,
Eliminate “need” only if it does not equate to “want” which equates to another firearms or cartridge in the quiver.

If I "need" it I probably won't want it

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Mike,
Eliminate “need” only if it does not equate to “want” which equates to another firearms or cartridge in the quiver.

If I "need" it I probably won't want it

Ah...totally understand now!

quote:

Oh yeah, guys... the WSM was released january 2000 .. it sure has wilted away, hasn't it?

Not from the long range bench rest guys it hasn't.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
just wondering why so many gunguys are ones to run right up and say "you don't need ABC cartrdige" or ABC is the same as BCD ...

this is gun gragging liberal talk ...

Don't give them any more ammo than they already have

Oh yeah, guys... the WSM was released january 2000 .. it sure has wilted away, hasn't it?

I gather you badly O.D.'d on those caffine alcohol drinks I've been reading about when you made this post.

My interest in starting the thread regarding the .375 Ruger was to gather opinions on the interest in the cartridge a little while after its debut. I noticed there was something like 80 replies, so I would assume that even without reading the thread interest remains significant. That could only seem unreasonable to one who has lost or never had an ability to reason.

"liberal gungrabbing talk,...." Really!?!?!?!?!? So by that line of reasoning you would stipulate that a positive review of Barnes Bullets is a liberal gun grabbing attempt to ban lead bullets?

Please tell me your mother doesn't let you operate a vehicle or vote.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
I gather you badly O.D.'d on those caffine alcohol drinks I've been reading about when you made this post.

no

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
"liberal gungrabbing talk,...." Really!?!?!?!?!?

yes

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
So by that line of reasoning you would stipulate that a positive review of Barnes Bullets is a liberal gun grabbing attempt to ban lead bullets?

no . i woul however feel that stating that all bullets should be lead free would be gungrabber talk. this in an insubtle difference

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

Please tell me your mother doesn't let you operate a vehicle or vote.

Is there a REASON you wish to insult me personally?

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
That could only seem unreasonable to one who has lost or never had an ability to reason.

My post wasn't about you, Scott .. it was about people knocking the round and decrying it had no use. you might go back and read those 80+ replies that you skipped over.

Jeffe,

sorry buddy (and Jeffe is a great guy) but I think this is your day in the barrel!! I'll rent you a ladder, but not for another 48 hours.

Rich

If we shared very many opinions on calibers what a boring place this would be. Even the awesome 375 Holland has some detractors here.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
That could only seem unreasonable to one who has lost or never had an ability to reason.

My post wasn't about you, Scott .. it was about people knocking the round and decrying it had no use. you might go back and read those 80+ replies that you skipped over.

Uh, you likened the criticism of a rifle cartridge to un American un Constitutional firearm confiscation.

Seriously, you don't think that could be taken as personally insulting?

Cool! I understand the situation and bow to your moderation.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
That could only seem unreasonable to one who has lost or never had an ability to reason.

My post wasn't about you, Scott .. it was about people knocking the round and decrying it had no use. you might go back and read those 80+ replies that you skipped over.

Uh, you likened the criticism of a rifle cartridge to un American un Constitutional firearm confiscation.

Seriously, you don't think that could be taken as personally insulting?

Scott,
it wasn't about YOU .. it was about the attitude of stating that the ruger serves no purpose and then tryign to back that up with a lack of NEED ... like there NEEDS to be 300 different models of 4 banger cars on the road.

it was meant to make one THINK.

i guess i just stopped short of provoking a thought and made you feel provoked.

but, facts are, scott, you weren't insulted.. but you took special effort to try and lay a couple on me.

Jeff;

I have to say I hear a bit of the reverse of your point about older rounds. Rounds that come to mind are field proven rounds like 270 Win (popular whipping boy), 30-06, 375 H&H (takes a likin' and keeps on ticking), 458 Win among just a few. That somehow these "obsolete" (word used by national sports writer & guide in this very string) rounds are no longer any good.

I like just about all rounds (albiet I'm a bit of a recoil whimp) in many different guns. But it seems for every new round it's whole basis is to beat and long term proven round. Isn't this similar to your point?

Strange my favorite 7x57 which holds religious like status; 7x57, really is not any better than several 270/7mm/30cal new & old cartridges. It's immune but others aren't?

Pete A.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete A.:
Jeff;

I have to say I hear a bit of the reverse of your point about older rounds. Rounds that come to mind are field proven rounds like 270 Win (popular whipping boy), 30-06, 375 H&H (takes a likin' and keeps on ticking), 458 Win among just a few. That somehow these "obsolete" (word used by national writer in this very string) rounds are no longer any good.

I like just about all rounds (albiet I'm a bit of a recoil whimp) in many different guns. But it seems for every new round it's whole basis is to beat and long term proven round. Isn't this similar to your point?

Pete A.

OK, on that last point, (every new round it's whole basis is to beat and long term proven round.)

Excluding Weatherby and Propritary cartridges like Lazeroni, which MAINSTREAM cartridges released and chambered for the mass market HAVE ACTUALLY done that - beaten long term proven rounds so much so that it has put it into obsolescence ?


I would say one is the 300 Win mag put the 300 H&H out of contention.

The 223 put the 222 out, except the 223 is a military round.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

Excluding Weatherby and Propritary cartridges like Lazeroni, which MAINSTREAM cartridges released and chambered for the mass market HAVE ACTUALLY done that - beaten long term proven rounds so much so that it has put it into obsolescence ?

I would say one is the 300 Win mag put the 300 H&H out of contention.

The 223 put the 222 out, except the 223 is a military round.

It is worth remembering the time the 300 Winchester was introduced. Only a few years later the M70 had the angled forend tip and a butt straight from Wby. A Sako Deluxe looked like a copy of a Mark V Deluxe.

The 7mm Rem had been intoduced around
1963 and advertised 3260 f/s with 150 grainers and from memory 3070 with 175 grainers.

What I am trying to say is the 300 Win and 300 H&H is very different to the 375 Ruger and 375 H&H.

I agree with Mike.

We would all take the bet that the 375 Holland will be around as long as DG rifles are being built. The question is, will the ruger? People seem to be voting with their pocketbooks, which is as it should be.

Rich

Rich... Just admit it. You just dont like the 375 Ruger

Live and let live!

Maybe we should get all 375 Ruger owners to wear a patch so we can identify them for the ovens later

Off to the 375 Ruger ghettos with you!

" Live and let Live...". I think the James Bond movie said it best; "Live and let Die".

If the old Holland isn't enough for anything in the world, and I want to stay small, I'll get a 375 RUM or Saeed's 404-375.

Rich

I think a Pogrom may be called for next spring...

Why would you prefer a wildcat over a factory round? Is it the length?
300@ 2500 is enough is it not?

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
A good trial lawyer once told me "never, NEVER, N-E-V-E-R! EVER! ask a witness on the stand a question unless you know all the possible answers and none of them will hurt your case.

So, unless you and the other moderators here want to ban discussions/comparisons of new VS old(er) cartridges you will just have to live with the honest exchange of opinions and personal anecdotes.

It's supposed to be fun...

Rich
not taking anything said to or about me here personal...

The logic that is obvious to me, about the lawer quotation, it is that way because attorneys seldom if EVER are seeking to disclose the truth, and instead seek to divert the point or muddy the point to where the truth can't surface. It's disgusting and a form of lying. As a non-attorney my preference would be to ask open questions, and let the answers fall where they may. People lie anyway, so to me it would be fun to provide an opportunity for lies, then disclose and challange it in as embarrassing way as possible. In court, disclosing a witness as a lier doesn't get any better, if it can be done, and discredits their whole testimony. But that's just my thought. Attorneys deal with it differently.

Although I still prefer the 375 H&H, I think the 375 Ruger is a good idea and worth doing. I'm thankful Ruger and Hornady had the resources and will to do it, along with the RCM cartridges too. I may never own one, but I'm glad they are there.

KB

An honest criminal defense attorney's job is two fold: if the guy is innocent, to get him off; if he's guilty, get him the best deal. Crooked ones... They are beyond my realm of experience. I never took those psych assessment jobs.

Rich

I don’t have a dog in the fight as I own rifles chambered in .375 H&H or .375 Ruger.

I do however believe that extreme prejudice exists relating to three sacrosanct cartridges; 1st the .270 Winchester, 2nd the .375 H&H Magnum, and 3rd the .416 Rigby. Proffer a cartridge to use in lieu of any of these three cartridges and you have a fight on your hands. It’s as if their “clan” perceives it to be that you’ve fired a shot across their bow as an act of war…so the war is on.

Unfortunately the USA factories drank the “belted case” cool aid between WWI and WWII virtually limiting the USA hunters for decades to a rimless cartridge choice between ’06 derivative and H&H belted derivative cases and cartridges for our largest caliber cartridges.

Worse yet, except for the rare availability from England or Europe, the only DG cartridges available to the USA hunting public was limited to the .375 H&H at the low end and the .458 WinMag at the upper end as cartridges manufactured and available for DG hunting.

Personally, I also believe that H&H’s stated need for the belt for headspace upon due to the extreme case taper and minimal shoulder angle of the .375 H&H to be solely a PR marketing ploy so that the cartridge would be different from all existing cartridges (except for their failed .375 Velopex cartridge…their first .375 caliber belted case attempt). Many other competing rimless cartridges of the day very successfully utilized a slightly less body taper with slightly more shoulder angle without a case belt in the tropical climate zone for DG hunting very successfully.

I see zero need for the belted cartridge case, exception being a minimal taper case where neck diameter and base diameters are very close due to the bullet diameter for those who disbelieve Michael458s work with zero belt/zero shoulder cartridges for DG hunting.

Personally if I’m going to purchase a .375 caliber rifle it’d be as follows: short action: .375 B&M or .375 WSM; standard action: .375 Ruger, .375 SS (Super Swede) or .375 Dakota; or long action: .375 RUM or improved .375/.404 Jeffery.

Anyway…that’s my 2-cents.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Oh yeah, guys...the WSM was released January 2000...it sure has wilted away, hasn't it?

Of all the WSMs, WSSMs, and SAUMs the 300 WSM is the clear winner and nearly the only survivor...

Best 375 that never was is the 2.65" version on an 06 based cart. Closest thing is the 470 magnum or 9,3x66. Neck it up a tad for 300 @ 2,450

An extra down is better than another 100 fps
Then again ther is the 375 FGC by Fossdal based on a de rimmed 9,3x74 case.



Far left, the faboulus .375 FGC.
Then the .375 H&H, .375 Ruger, .375 Whelen. 9,3x64, 9,3x62

The 9,3x74 case has 82 grains capacity so maybe an improved case could get about 90 grains. That should get 300@ 2500 all day long.

Boomie,

step away from that crack pipe!! You are basically talking the 375 Whelen or Whelen Improved. I believe you are specifically discussing the 375 Howell length. Been around lotta years bud.

Rich

You guys, what say we chip in and buy Boomie a copy of the Handloader's Guide to Cartridge Conversions by Donnelly for Christmas? We might not hear from him for a month starting the day it was delivered.

Dont knock it till you try it

Ah yes, the 375 Howell forgive me Mr Howell.

So my question is would you rather have another down in a wildcat or another 100 fps?

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Boomie,

step away from that crack pipe!! You are basically talking the 375 Whelen or Whelen Improved. I believe you are specifically discussing the 375 Howell length. Been around lotta years bud.

Rich

You guys, what say we chip in and buy Boomie a copy of the Handloader's Guide to Cartridge Conversions by Donnelly for Christmas? We might not hear from him for a month starting the day it was delivered.

Haven't pissed off Jeffe for a while, should be fun.

Face it folks, the 375 H&H is the medium to big bore de-facto standard, very popular, and for good reason. Everything else in the 375 range will always be considered a re-package.

That being said, I would wish best success to any newly introduced cartridge, but we all know that some weren't born to last. I will say that had I not already owned a H&H, the Ruger would be awfully tempting. The 416 Ruger more so.

John

just kidding you Boominator Man, I had forgotten the Howell line til you mentioned the 2.65" case length.

What BBBH said, plus one!

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

What BBBH said, plus one!

Rich

really? that he would consider the ruger if he didn't already have an hh?

NO!, the part about the 375 Holland being the gold standard!

I was going to let you out of the barrel today. But, now, another 24 hours for you laddie!!

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar I would wish best success to any newly introduced cartridge, but we all know that some weren't born to last. I will say that had I not already owned a H&H, the Ruger would be awfully tempting. The 416 Ruger more so.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
What BBBH said, plus one!

Rich

Rich, I certainly don't feel in a barrel.

What 375 did you kill you buffalo with, buddy? or was that a 458 winmag?