Spring Bear seasons are coming up and I've been remembering a couple of instances in the past where I was extremely uncomfortable trailing wounded bears into the thick stuff. Of course a nice Nitro double would be the optimum answer to this situation, but alas out of my price range currently.

The only doubles that I might be able to afford are the O/U types usually in 9.3. Also thought of the 1895 route in 9.3 or larger 375 or 411 Hawk - I've just never had real experience with lever guns. I question whether 12ga shotguns with slugs will do the job. So questions are:

Do you think 9.3 with heavy premiums are enough stoppage? What about 12ga slugs? Are the levers a realistic option - would the second shot be quick enuf?

We just came back from the San Diego Zoo a couple of weeks ago. After seeing their two Brown Bears up close I don't think they make a big enough gun to make me feel comfortable following a wounded one into the thick stuff. I know it doesn't answer your question, but dang those things are huge!

458 Lott with either 400 or 450 gr North Fork SS.

Hog Killer

I've only read about it, but I hear so few people getting multiple shots off in a charge. A rifled 870 with slugs can be worked mighty fast, and that would be my choice. Not nearly as classy as a 470 double, but hey, you could buy five or ten for the price of one.

Longbob, your point is well taken. Comfortable is a relative term.

I'm hunting with a 416rem, so I'm not undergunned - I'm talking specifically about a tracking situation. I'm looking for an option that allows for a very quick 2nd shot. I know that in my hands anyway a bolt gun probably isn't fast enough for that 2nd shot in a close charge situation.

Bwana-be, I do believe that I could make a pump shotgun go fast enuf, but questioned the ability of a slug on a pissed off fuzzy. Maybe someone here has some experience with slugs on bears.

I have killed a Russian brown with a .416 Remington. During that same hunt another hunter killed his bear, which was charging, with a single shot from a .375 H&H. From what I observed, either of these calibers is adequate for stopping a charge cold, if bullet placement is good. Of course, it always seems to come back to bullet placement, doesn't it ?

Geronimo

Hi Antlers,
You didn't mention whether you were hunting for blacks or grizzly. You couldn't be better off with your 416 Rem for the big guys. Just make sure that you have the correct scope for the job and not one with large magnification on the lowest setting. A 1.5 to 5 or even a 2.5 to 8 Leupold would be about perfect. With a good premium bullet and a calm head you should be fine. Just make sure the first shot isn't iffy or your pushed to make a shot. That should make it so there isn't a tracking job.
Take good care,
Dave

I hunt both Blacks and Browns. I use a 1.75 X 6 in QD Talleys which I pull off for tracking. Unfortunately, the instances I referred to weren't bears that I had shot, but friends from "outside" with little bear experience. This has led to some hairy situations when we had blood trails, but little confidence in shot placement. I was just looking for an option to an expensive double.

A shotgun with slugs would be my last choice...

I think the 416 in an iron sighted bolt rifle is pretty darn hard to beat, that would be my choice..It kills big bears..A fast second shot isn't all that much quicker between a bolt and a lever...

If you just have to have a lever gun then a Mod 95 in 9.3 or 375 Hawk would be a good choice, or a 50-110 lever action Win Mod 86 as produced by Doug Turnbull...

Most Alaskan guides use a .338 or .375 bolt action...

Ray is right if you are going to take a firearm that requires to be aimed. A rifle over the shot gun is the way to go personaly I do not think buck shot is a good bear stopper so that leaves a shot gun out.

My first choice would be a good bolt action in 416 Rem or 458 Lott, with a leupy 2.5x in quick detach rings and iron sights. Load the 416 with a 350 gr, and the 458 with a 400 gr.

The lever guns provide quick repeat shots, at the expense of terminal performance that the bolt gun offers. I can't see trading off the first shot whap for followups.

I'd dismiss the doulbe idea unless you're willing to invest in a 40 caliber or larger.

For griz or brown bear hunting, I'll take a 416 or 458 in a bolt action.

For working in bear country (forestry work in my experience), I take the 12 ga defender with slugs. It isnt ideal, but its about the best tradeoff there is. You have to balance weight and size against effectiveness. And then there is the beating they take...I'd never lug a nice rifle around the way we do a defender.

If I am only doing light field work in bear country (ie. field checking someone else's work), I'll usually trade the defender for a Marlin 45/70. Its more effective than the 12 gauge but still light and handy enough to work with.

Cheers,
Canuck

Canuck -- do you carry a sidearm for backup?

If I had the avenue to do so, I would plead the 5th.

Its not legal to pack a sidearm in Canada, unless you have a permit to carry. You can theoretically get them as a timber cruiser or prospector, but they are really hard get these days, so not many of us have them anymore.

Most forest workers that choose to carry a firearm rather than pepper spray find it easier to pack a rifle or defender than go through all the hoops to legally carry a sidearm.

Cheers,
Canuck

You could look at the Remington "Spartan" 45/70 double barrel if it ever comes out. Seems like that gun would be perfect for what you're doing.

I am with Ray on this one. I have shot a deer and pigs with slugs and I am not impressed. If I had to use slugs I would use Brennekke's.
I would prefer a 45/70 lever or a 375, 416, or 458 bolt with a @20" bbl.
A short bbled double would be nice but very expensive, unless the new Rem. 45/70 double would work.

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:


Its not legal to pack a sidearm in Canada, unless you have a permit to carry. You can theoretically get them as a timber cruiser or prospector, but they are really hard get these days, so not many of us have them anymore.

Most forest workers that choose to carry a firearm rather than pepper spray find it easier to pack a rifle or defender than go through all the hoops to legally carry a sidearm.

I bet the liberals feel much safer in Canada's vast wilderness as a result too! After all, before Canada's handgun laws tighten, the Hudson Bay area was just crawling with wilderness muggers, wasn't it?

Ray, I dont have to have a lever (dont really want one since I think I'd have to spend a considerable amount of time training with it), just thinking a second shot would be faster. You must work a bolt faster than me.

A couple of y'all have expressed the same concern that I had with the shotgun/slugs combo.

Paul H, an interesting point about 40 caliber or larger in a double. I have seriously considered an O/U double in 9.3 X 74 - thinking maybe the 320gr Woodleigh would make it more of a stopper. I thought of the doubles in 45/70, but aren't most a hammer design - there goes the speed.

[flame suit on]

Browning BAR .338 Winchester Magnum with 250gr. Partitions.

You DID say fast follow up shot!

[/flame suit off]

quote:

Originally posted by MikeyB:
[flame suit on]

Browning BAR .338 Winchester Magnum with 250gr. Partitions.

You DID say fast follow up shot!

[/flame suit off]

That is not a bad idea as long as you made damn sure it worked every time, in cold, or wet weather. The BAR has been converted to 458 win mag as well.

If I were to use a shotgun, it would be a good 10 ga,double with handloaded solid sabot slugs cast out of wheel weights, in all brass cartridges, and sealed with primer seal, both primer, and around the slug! It rains SOME in Alaska!

I hunt everything in Alaska with a 375 H&H bolt rifle, but I have a Marlin 1895, one of the old srtight stocks, and I had my smith cut the barrel back to 16 1/4" with a fukll length mag tube, and I load 400 gr bullets to as hot as the rifle will eject the empties. The loads are max for the Ruger No1! I use this rifle on a shoulder sling while fishing in Alaska. It has a home made ghost ring back sight, and a large bead in front.

quote:

Originally posted by MikeyB:
[flame suit on]

Browning BAR .338 Winchester Magnum with 250gr. Partitions.

You DID say fast follow up shot!

[/flame suit off]

Well, I must admit I hadnt thought of that one . I had thought about an M1A in the SOCOM version with a "heads up" sight, but decided 30 caliber just wasnt big enuf no matter how heavy the bullet. One thing against either though is that I shoot left handed and would be dealing with ejection across my face.

Antlers,

The 45-70 Rem. SxS, will be hammerless.

Hog Killer

Antlers: I have a fullsize M1A and shoot left handed; never a problem with the brass. But brass or no brass, 308 is not a bear stopping round. I have done much Alaska hunting and I don't care for an autoloader bear stopper. It's a good idea to look for that wounded bear with a calm and seasoned partner right with you.

The BAR sounds interesting, can't get a 2nd shot off any quicker. And if they've been converted to 458Win, then 358Norma and 375 or 416 Taylor must be on the menu too.

The Norma would be my pick, but only because I'll eventually acquire a 416Rem at the top end of my collection. (That 458Win in the signature isn't mine, but I can shoot it as much as my shoulder or wallet can handle).

Hog Killer, what is the latest on the availability of the Rem double?

Longshots, it's good to know that brass isn't a problem - and you and I are in agreement on .308. I have always had a seasoned partner with me on trailing jobs; I was looking for additional insurance.

After more thhan four decades in Grizzly country, I have owned and use many guns for this purpose and now have settled on only a few. I will not hunt in Grizzly country as I backpack and carry my own meat out, without at least one of my .338-250 NP crf rifles. For this spring's Grizzly hunt near the B.C.-Alaska border, my .375H&H-300 NPs will be going along, a P-64 Mod. 70.

For working and general backpacking in the bush, I have both the older '70s style Marlin and the Browning 1886 SRC with Ashley ghost rings and use either Kodiak 400 gr. of Swift 400 gr. bullets over max. charges of either H-4198 or H-322. These rifles are the optimum in Grizzly defense guns and I have not used a shotgun with slugs for years.

I also have a Redhawk 5.5"-sts, in .44 Mag. and used to use it around the cabin, but, it is too much trouble for what benefit is involved. I will also use my Merkel drilling in 9.3x74r and 12 ga. This gives three fast shots with 286 NPs or Brennekes, but, it is only for Grouse hunting during berry time, not for general or defensive use.

For someone who is really recoil sensitive, I like the .30-06 with 220 NPs over RE-22 and would prefer this to any magnum under the .338 Win. I have seen quite a few Grizzlies whacked with an .'06 and it is more capable than many believe, especially in the hands of an experienced bushwhacker, but, I prefer more rifle as the Grizzly problem in B.C. is definitely increasing.

Foster slugs are, IMO, useless for anything except cheap practice with a shotgun and softpoint .44 Mags. are no better. Sticking to ONE rifle that you know well is much better than using a purpose-built "stopping rifle" as you will very likely get only one hurried shot at an attacking Grizzly; the speed of these animals has to be experienced to be believed.

[/QUOTE]

I bet the liberals feel much safer in Canada's vast wilderness as a result too! After all, before Canada's handgun laws tighten, the Hudson Bay area was just crawling with wilderness muggers, wasn't it?

[/QUOTE]

The irony is that the same group doesn't actually provide Canuck the "5th"... as in amendment to the Constitution.

The sad irony of this situation is that Canada's rural and bush areas do in fact have a serious problem with violent criminals, both "white" and Aboriginal. I have had problems in the past, while serving on fire lookouts and so have many people I worked with; this is the major reason I carry a gun while working.

We Canadians are the victims of our own softhearted and softheaded attitudes as we accept crime as somehow an inevitable part of society. Those who advocate the free use of dangerous drugs such as Marijuana and promote "social liberalism" with it's lack of concern for individual freedoms and responsibilities are the real culprits in the ongoing decay of Canadian society....there certainly are muggers around Hudson Bay.

I'd pick my 500 Jeff obviously...

I know that Benelli will present his Argo auto repeating rifle in 9.3x62... if will be true I'd think about


ciao

i read the title on this thread.. passed.. then saw lots of people talking about it...


i thought, at first pass, that this was about bruin constipation!!!

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:
Hog Killer, what is the latest on the availability of the Rem double?

Remington says they will be available in the fall of this year.

Antlers:
I'm in the same position you are in, heavy brush, big bears. I've got a Brn. Mod. 71 lever with short bbl and a Trijicon ACOG red dot sight. .50 Alaskan.I carry that sometimes.

My favorite however, is a Rem. 870, 12 gauge with "OO" or "OOO" buck. The object is not to "kill" the bear, its to keep the bear from killing you. A load of buck in the face will blind or change a bears mind.

Lead spray beats pepper spray every time!

Cheers,
Canuck

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jeffeosso:
i thought, at first pass, that this was about bruin constipation!!!




TJ, interesting 71. Have you ever used it on bear? I respect your opinion about the buckshot, but I just cant see it myself - gambling that buckshot to the face will turn a juiced up bear coming on the run at spittin distance. Maybe it would work, but I dont think I will take the gamble.

Fjold, do you know what kinda pressures the Rem would handle? If they're gonna be available in the fall, that could really be an option worth waiting for. Think I'll try to find something on their website about this......

Just looked at the Spartan gunworks website (the Rem double). The double in 45/70 will only handle SAAMI compliant loads - 28,000psi. I'm on the road and dont have any manuals with me ; I assume this means none of the souped up higher pressure loads, like Garrett or Buffalo Bore. Not sure I wouldn't rather have the 9.3 O/U.

quote:

i thought, at first pass, that this was about bruin constipation!!!
jeffe

That would be "Bear Blockage" I think.

There's a post on here somewhere about Big Bores on an AR style platform. That might be an answer.

And even if you have no intention of hunting with it, it's something you almost have to buy. An AR on steroids, feeding and ejecting cigars for cartridges would be quite a show stopper at the range.

.308" too small?!?
How much $$ for a full-auto FAL? A 5rnd mag+one in chamber makes to pulls.
Rat-tat-freekin'-tat x 2! Bear down.

I am building .416 Rigby for an AK bear guide right now. He says that most of his friends use .375 with the .416 Rem gaining in popularity. >338 0r .458 would be next

I would never use buckshot or slugs for a bear. I have seen both penetraate remarkably little, even on a 120# whitetail

After fifty years' residence in Canada, I finally had HAD IT with the successive regimes continually lurching further and further into repression and socialism.

We left in 1997, and are much happier and freer here in Nevada, US of A.

It is indeed almost impossible to get a permit to carry a handgun in Canada, even in wilderness areas. However, almost any good-sized Canadian gun/shooting/outdoors-y store has a LOT of concealment-type holsters. Isn't that ....ummmm....interesting? I know what it tells me, namely that a great number of folks carry without the knowledge or permission of Big Brother. I certainly did, never leaving my rural bushland home without at least a Ruger .44 hidden somewhere. Many of my friends did (do) the same.

As a side note as to WHY we carried, illegally or not, a man was killed and partly eaten by a black bear no more than a mile from our home. But, we don't "NEED" a pistol, do we?

The laws are so extreme there that I fully expect to see the importation of some holster types forbidden in the future. I'm surprised it hasn't happened already. All it needs is some damned government flunky to wander into a store and see them for himself.

I have played around with a .50Beowulf on a AR lower with a 10 inch barrel registered as a SBR. With a foreward grip and an EOTech sight, it's the fastest beast I've ever used. Period! You can shoot faster than any pistol and way more accurately, and still have a 400gr .50 bullet at 1900fps. You could probably get three to four rounds off in the time it would take to cycle a lever gun. At the least the muzzel blast will burn the hair off the bears face and you can toast his ass as he wobbles off!
I tried shooting steel gongs with it but had to stop as it wrecked them. Powerfull little monster. By the way you can hang it off your shoulder and still carry a .600OK African style. I think I would feel pretty safe following up a wounded Bear with that combo!-Rob