quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
Antlers:
My favorite however, is a Rem. 870, 12 gauge with "OO" or "OOO" buck. The object is not to "kill" the bear, its to keep the bear from killing you. A load of buck in the face will blind or change a bears mind.

I certainly hope you don't have to test that theory! Buck shot are notorious for wounding, and looseing whitetail deer, and not stopping criminals shot with it by cops!

Not a great idea: 454 double action, one in each hand. 360 gr .cast performance,1500fps. !2 rounds, $1100. Just struck me as funny,sorry.

Mac:
Yep, I have tested the theory. Its not theory, its fact.
A 12 gauge with buck at 10 yards or less, will not only blind a bear, it will kill em dead. I ain't shooting little bitty whitetails at 100 yds, or bad guys at 50 yards. I ain't interested in killing the bear, only interested in him not killing me. If he can't see. he can't get me.
Here's another thought, how many people have the nerve to hit a mean bear at 10 yards with a rifle? When the piss starts running down your leg, your aim gets a bit sloppy. Shotguns cure that problem.
I've been killing Brown Bear for 39 years, so I hope I learned a thing or two.I've killed em with everything from a 280 Rem to a 458 Win. But, when I'm in the brush I want a 12 Gauge.
Here's on from a few years ago.

TJ,

Sorry but if you cant hit-um with a rifle at 10 paces you aint hitting them with a shotgun either.

I've been guiding and killing bear for some time myself and there is no way in hell I'm going in after a wounded Brownie with any kind of Gauge, more power to you though.

For fishing, hiking or hanging around camp, ok thats a different deal, more to deter rather than life or death situation with a jacked up bear.

.338 as a minimum prefer a .375 or bigger for big wounded bear in the pucker brush.

-Ron

Grizzly1: Check your PM,I sent you something about the 375 Ultra Mag. longshots.

Antlers, that 28,000 psi is laywer-speak from Remington. That rifle is designed for the 308 and 30-06 also; both of which at least double that pressure. It will take any commercially loaded 45-70 available including Garrett's if you like that brand. (Think about it; would a big outfit like Remington sell ANY gun that might fail with over-the-counter ammo?)
A lot of us are going to buy one and re-chamber it to an large capacity/low pressure 450 british express caliber known for its effectiveness but the 45-70 ain't no slouch either.

Bwana-be, I watched a guy try to kill a charging boar with a full auto M-14. I'll pass on that one; he was damned good with that rifle and only managed 2 hits out of a 20 round mag. Luckily one was a lower spine shot or the hog would have had his nuts for dinner.

Robgun
My grandson shot a bison with a 50 Beowolf last year, put a soft and a solid through both lungs and the Bison went 2 miles and died, in a blizzard with me cussing and sweeping tracks with sagebrush to find blood in the snow..I'm damn glad it wasn't a bear!!

If I going to shoot something that bites I want more gun than a 50 Beowolf or a 45-70...These pissie guns fail guys, I have seen it too many times, I'm not against them for no reason, its because they kill very slowly...It makes me wonder who has actually shot much with them...

For Dangerous game the velocity should be 2100 FPS in a 45 cal with a 500 gr. bullet...400 grs. in a 40 caliber at 2100. 2000 plus in a 470 or 500 with heavy bullets, 300 grs in a 375 at 2350 FPS.....and more velocity is better in every case....

The browning BAR in .338 win mag. would be a great bear stopper in my opinion. I did own one and used it in rain snow and single digit tempetures with never a jam. But the fear of it jamming when i most needed it made me sell it.I would choose for brown bears a bolt action 416 and up. I also think the 45/70 with the right bullets in a lever action would get the job done.

I think we got a little off topic. The original question was about "trailing wounded bears."
Grizzly1,
Your comment "if you can't hit em with a rifle at 10 yards you ain't gonna hit em with a shotgun." is interesting. Do you hunt birds with a rifle? Why not? If you can't hit em with a rifle you ain't gonna hit em with a shotgun.
You may want to rethink that one.
Remember folks, the primary object is not to kill the bear, it is to not let the bear kill you.

Tj, If your digging a wounded bear out of the brush, he will be at 10 paces or closer (most of the time)and at that range the diameter of the pattern is around 4" (or it is on my 18" open bore) not exactly big enough for hip shooting. Then lets say he jumps you at 5 paces, well now, your looking at the diameter of a 12 gauge- you better not be pissin down your leg or you will miss-same goes with a rifle. The penetration of buckshot sucks and rippin another chunck of flesh outta him isn't going to stop him. Also I dont know of too many people who are carrying 2 guns on a bear stalk and if your going hunting big bears with a shotgun you have a screw loose. You also stated the object is not to kill the bear, but turn it-are you not trailing a wounded bear that you or your pard shot trying to kill? How many times do you want to trail the same bear? You shoot to kill TJ.
I'm not against carrying a shotgun in bear country, it has it's place, I don't think trailing a wounded brownie is it.

Just my take TJ-Ron

Ron:
What we have here, is a failure to understand each other.
I would not "hunt" Bears with a shotgun.
When you have to go in the bush after a wounded Bear,the purpose is to finish the bear.
However, if the bears purpose is to finish you, a shotgun will work pretty good to change his mind. You can worry about killing him later.
I say a shotgun will kill a bear and you say it won't. We'll just have to agree to disagree about that one.

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
Mac:
Yep, I have tested the theory. Its not theory, its fact.
I've been killing Brown Bear for 39 years, so I hope I learned a thing or two.I've killed em with everything from a 280 Rem to a 458 Win. But, when I'm in the brush I want a 12 Gauge.

All that is rehteric, have you blinded, or killed a Brown bear with a 12ga buck shot load?

Son you are not the only person to kill lots of Brownies, and other bears, And you will find few PHs in Africa that will trust a shotgun with buck shot on a little 120 lb Leopard, because it doesn't stop them!

In a close quarters shot on anything a under 15 feet you got about a 5" spread on those 9 pellets, and they don't penetrate worth a damn.

With a load that will only hit a 5" circle, with poor penetration, the use something like a 300 gr .375 bullet will penetrate that bear from stem to stern. If you can place a 5" pattern on a bear, you can place a 300 gr bullet with a hell of a lot more effect, just
as well under the "pissing down your leg" conditions,"AS YOU PUT IT!

TJ, you may shoot bears any way it pleases you! I'm not telling you what to do, but I would be remiss to let you reccomend that system to these kids who haven't been there, without at least another point of view on the subject!

IMO, the 12 ga shotgun, loaded with buckshot is not a Brown Bear remedy, for any range, short or long! Even if I had to use a shotgun on Brownies, I'd much rather have "SOLID" Sabot slugs cast hard,from wheel weights, and in a shotgun with express rifle sights, and it would be a 10 ga minimum, in a double with reliable ejectors,use handloaded all brass case shells, or a well used pump, set up the same way! IMO, buck shot is the devel's own invention!

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
However, if the bears purpose is to finish you, a shotgun will work pretty good to change his mind. You can worry about killing him later.
I say a shotgun will kill a bear ....

I 100% agree with your comments quoted above, particularly in the context of protecting oneself from bears in a situation where you are not hunting them.

On a topic like this there are many, many different and unique situations that may deserve a different and unique set of recommendations. Its human nature for respondents to apply each of the recommendations to their own typical circumstance and then judge them, however innapropriately.

In a situation where I or my coworkers/employees are protecting themselves from bears while working, a shotgun is hard to beat. I do not want my workers lugging around a 10 lb rifle that they don't want scratched or rusty, when they are already carrying around 30 pounds of gear (paint, ribbon, shovel, soil screen, etc, etc) and I am paying them good $$$ to be as productive as possible. Most people don't care if their defender gets wet and dirty. And in the hands of someone that can use it, a shotgun with slugs or buck shot is WAY better than pepper spray!

In the scenario presented by the originator of the thread (followiing up on a wounded bear in a hunting situation), I believe your average bear hunter is best armed with a suitable medium/big bore rifle from start to finish. Following up with a different firearm is not usually a feasible option anyway.

Cheers,
Canuck

(edited for clarity)

Tj, I never said that a shotgun won't kill a bear, in fact I even said that it has it's place(role) Just not for wounded bear. I sometimes keep one in base camp with bird shot, my H&H aint far away though.

This topic is on wounded bear medicine, is it not? if it is, then it's my contention that a shotgun is not the ideal gun to have in your hands. You are saying that a shotgun is ideal for this situation. I guess we disagree, which is not all bad.

Canuck,
There are alot of varying situations when it comes to the appropriate gun for bear and is subject to bias (like you said), this topic however is not varied and the question was to the point as are my replys.

This is a totally different topic, but in regard to you and your employee's choice of guns in the field a shotgun seems logical, but I would not limit myself/crew to only 1 choice. During my years as an contractor for the USFS I used a shotgun then switched to a 30-06, when I became an employee for the USFS I carried their standard issue .375 H&H 20'' bbl with reciever sights-a light and handy package- with authority. We only had one gun per crew most of the time, but I think the ideal combo for field work would be shotgun/.375, shotgun to scare-um and .375 to kill them. Try SS and yes a gauge is better than pepper spray.

If a bear is set on getting me (wounded or not)and I have a shotgun in my hands I'll make due, but I would long for my .375. Bottom line though is it's your neck, use what you like and if that is a shotgun so be it-it is a personal choice after all.

-Ron

Everyone seems to gloss over the idea of a seasoned and Calm partner. If you both go in together keeping as close as possible to a side by side formation, with no room for a bear between you, you should be fine. You should both have bear rifles, .375 on up.Heavy recoiling rifles are not ideal for follow up shots. This is better than a guy leading the way with a double or anything else( except side by side with at least one double rifle). Make a plan. If the bear attacks one of you,the other sticks his barrel near the bears head,and shoots.( be careful of the angle of the shot,we wouldn't want a gunshot partner) This is about all the insurance you can have.Sometimes things are just dangerous. Go big or stay at home.

Ray- The old Beowulf shoots a .50 slug 400 gr cast bullet at 1900 fps. That more horsepower than a 45/70. Didn't we kill a whole lot of Bison with 45/70's and 50/70's that don't come anywhere near the horsepower of a .50 Beowulf? Remember, my little "beast" is also semi-auto and fast at lightning!!!. Way way faster than any lever action 45/70. I'd think two or three of these( in about 3 seconds, maybe all 7 if I was really scared) would just about turn even a big brownie inside out.Consider it as BIG Buckshot! If that fails the muzzel blast will burn his nose off anyway! Do you really believe that your grandsons Bison would not have gone 2 miles after being lung shot by a 45/70? Hell the walk was good for you anyway!-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzly1:
Canuck,
There are alot of varying situations when it comes to the appropriate gun for bear and is subject to bias (like you said), this topic however is not varied and the question was to the point as are my replys.

Grizzly1, I wasn't actually referring to you specifically. The topic was broadened by other posters (me included) and then there were some very broad brush statements made that were not accurate in the context that the suggestions were made. You, however, have definitely stayed on topic!

WRT to my co-workers/employees, to be accurate, I don't limit their choice of means of protection. Many of them choose pepper spray, which is supplied for them. If they choose to carry a firearm, they must provide it themselves, be 100% legal (ie. registrations and licences in place) and they must prove their competence with the firearm. In my case, none of them own a big bore firearm and instead have chosen to purchase the cheapest effective option available to them...a 12ga defender. Some flirted with using their '06s or 7mms, but realized their hunting firearms were limiting their productivity due to size, weight, and trying to protect them from damage. None of them were willing to spend upwards of $1000 on a light weight large caliber rifle.

I, on the other hand, have big bore rifles but I am not willing to subject them to the abuses of the job. The defender or 45/70 will suffice.

Cheers,
Canuck

Mac:
Well "SON", your comments on sabots miss the point entirely. I never mentioned sabots. The point is to BLIND the bear. "OO" does that. Penetration is not a factor, turning the bear is.
Your comment on "rehteric"? Would you splain what that means please?
I ain't shooting 120# leopards in Africa, I'm shooting 1000# Bears in Alaska. I know nothing about shooting leopards, I do know a little bit about shooting Bears.
If you are going to give advice to the youngens on here, what experience do you have shooting Bears? How many have you killed? I think that is a fair question.
You use what you want to, and I'll use what I want to. Fair enough?

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
Mac:
Well "SON", your comments on sabots miss the point entirely. I never mentioned sabots. The point is to BLIND the bear. "OO" does that. Penetration is not a factor, turning the bear is.
Your comment on "rehteric"? Would you splain what that means please?
I ain't shooting 120# leopards in Africa, I'm shooting 1000# Bears in Alaska. I know nothing about shooting leopards, I do know a little bit about shooting Bears.
If you are going to give advice to the youngens on here, what experience do you have shooting Bears? How many have you killed? I think that is a fair question.
You use what you want to, and I'll use what I want to. Fair enough?

TJ, what is it about anyone disagreeing with you that makes you so angry? I simply disagree with you, and, my friend, if that erks you then you will simply have to live with that! I have shot a lot of bears ,Brown, black, ,inland grizzly and one Polar since my first head of big game in 1944. I hunted Alaska when it was still a territory, and almost every year since it became a state. I can post you a Photo of a Brownie that would have that thing you posted for breakfast! I didn't shoot him with a shotgun however!

I see you took exception to my word "SON", and I understand that, after thinking about your response! You see, I was born, and raised in Texas Ranch country, and the phrase "SON" is just something we say, even if who we are talking to is older than us! We use the word much the same way most would use "GUY", or "MAN"!

In this case, however, unless you are a lot older than I think, I could probably be your father, and maybe grandfather. I have a doughter that will be 50 yrs old,her next birthday in June, and a grand daughter that is 31 yrs old.

I know you didn't mention the sabots, but you should have! I DID, however,mention them, and I wouldn't have thought so much about your post if that had been your choice in the first place, because it makes a lot more sense. That is, if there is any sense, at all, involved in following a wounded Brownie into the weeds with a shotgun !

TJ, I meant no disrespect to you, in my origenal post! I was just makeing light of the thought of faceing a WOUNDED ten foot brownie with a pissy assed bird gun. If that pissed you off then so be it! You, and I will simply have to live with the disagreement. Now that you've brought anger into this,here's something for you! IMO, anyone who walks into the tight alders, or willows with a wounded brown bear with a shotgun loaded with buck shot is a little light in the head, but as I said, that is just my opinion, but if the shoe fits........

As TOM HORN was fond of saying, "That's my last word on the subject!"

Mac,
This is the new Millenium, you cannot use "Son"
any more... You gota say "Dude"...
A lot of people recommend a shotgun for bear and leopard. I have done a lot of shooting of shotgun, buck shot and slugs, including Brenneke. I have killed deer and pigs with slugs.
I would rather have a 44 Mag or a 45/70 Lever rifle with the PROPER bullets than any shotgun.
I have done a lot of grouse hunting in Griz and black bear country. I always carried a few Brenneke slugs... but I carried a 4" 44 Mag too.
If an animal is "danger close" a brain or CNS shot is the only thing that will save you [been there done that], so I want a bullet that will penetrate the skull of the animal in question, every time. While rapidity of fire is important, one shot in the right place will save the day, I want a weapon that will penetrate to the brain EVERY TIME.

Well Mac,
you can disagree with me all day long and I won't get angry. I've got better things to do than to get angy with a comment on the internet.
I did take offense at the "SON" comment. I'm 66 years old, how old are you? Unless your 80 years or older, I doubt your my father.
That "thing", I posted, is listed in the B&C 22nd Big Game Awards book as number 40. Look it up.
I'd be interested in seeing the one you shot, that "would have that thing you posted for breakfast." What did it score? Did you enter it?
Lets see the photo you claim to have.
I may be a little "LIGHT IN THE HEAD",and the shoe fits.
You see Mac, you are screwing with a guy who has fooled with Brn Bears for the last 39 years, full time. I would no way, ever get into a debate with you, (in texas), about White tails. But, if you would like to continue the discussion on Brn Bears, please do.
Lets see the HUGE BEAR, and proof!

If you want an absolute stopper the 458 lott is hard to beat! I've had nothing but sucess with mine.in fact it for sale pretty reasonable too. The 30-06 that went in 3 stages ending up as a 425express is my brown bear rig now. Big lead nosed bullets are my favorites and today while butchering our Dec moose we found a 280 swift rite where it should've been. Jim

In the interest of both speed and power, I have a Browning BLR coming that I am going to have rebarreled and chambered to 416 Taylor. The finished rifle should weigh in at about 7.75 lbs. I expect to see 400 gr bullets at around 2300 fps with a 20" barrel. I'm faster with a lever gun, and the rotating bolt design of the BLR can handle modern magnums.

I would like a cz 550 in .416 Rigby with a composite stock, checked for feeding and mounted with a 2.5x leupold scope.

I would then have some 410 gr woodleigh's loaded to 2500 or so feet per second.

The above combo in .458 lott would also be an ideal choice !!

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
Well Mac,
You see Mac, you are screwing with a guy who has fooled with Brn Bears for the last 39 years, full time. I would no way, ever get into a debate with you, (in texas), about White tails. But, if you would like to continue the discussion on Brn Bears, please do.
Lets see the HUGE BEAR, and proof!

TJ, Lighten up! I don't care if you've been hunting Brn Bear for 75 years, that doesn't change the effectiveness of a shot gun with buck shot, or the advisability of going into the weeds with a wounded Brn Bear with a shotgun! For purely defence on unwounded bear a shot gun will do, if that is what you happen to have at the time. However, to purposely choose the shotgun with buck shot, to follow-up a wounded Brn Bear into the willows is insane , in my view! And I doubt you have ever stopped a wounded brn bear with buckshot! That opinion however doesn't mean you haven't

As far as you debateing me on Whitetail, you would win hands down, because though I have shot some whitetail, and Muleys,and most not in Texas, I only hunt Russian Boar in Texas. A full 90% of my hunting is in Alaska, Canada, and Africa, and mostly for dangerous game! I see absolutely no fun in hunting anything that can't fight back, except for meat. As far as record books go, I've a trophy room full of game that would make this, or that book,and that's only 1 100th of the game I've taken in my life. I don't carry a tape measure, or place them in those books, that is for "LOOK AT ME" ass holes. My trophies are for ME, and I couldn't care less who knows what I've done, I know, and that is all that counts!

I looked at your Profile, and see you don't have an E-mail address there! I can E-mail you the picture you want to see, but I don't know how to post it on the forum, and wouldn't if I could!

My E-mail is in my profile, if you will send me your's I'll post the picture to you! And let me ask you what is this "PROOF" shit? The proof is because I say so,and that is all the proof you need! Where is the proof that you have killed, or turned any WOUNDED Brn Bear with a 12ga with buckshot?

I will not post further on this string! BYE!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
Antlers:
My favorite however, is a Rem. 870, 12 gauge with "OO" or "OOO" buck. The object is not to "kill" the bear, its to keep the bear from killing you. A load of buck in the face will blind or change a bears mind.

I certainly hope you don't have to test that theory! Buck shot are notorious for wounding, and looseing whitetail deer, and not stopping criminals shot with it by cops!

While I'll agree that buckshot at any distance may not be the best choice, even a poor choice as ranges increase; I also know when the whole charge is in a three inch circle it is a force to be reckoned with.

I would really like someone to tell me what happens when a bear receives it in the three inch diameter state and the bears reaction.... I know a human's reaction.....

Faced with a close but not knowing how close situation on big bear I would want a 7600 Remington pump in .400 Whelen with a clip full loaded with Woodleigh 400 grain bullets. I can shoot this gun fast and "to point" like a pump shotgun of which I have tons and years of experience.

BigRx

Mac:
Well "POP", (that's what we always called the older guys where I'm from), I'm sorry to hear your going to chickenshit out on this thread.
You successfully called me, "a little light in the head", "insane","asshole",and a few others I probably missed. I don't think I called you anything derogatory.
You refused to answer the following questions....
1..How old are you?
2..How many bears have you killed?
3..Your statement..."I can post a Photo of a Brownie that would have that thing you posted for breakfast." Now you cannot post it except to email? What happened, your scanner broke? Maybe you could get your Grandkids to help you post the promised pic?
You said,"I killed my first head of big game in 1944," Lets see, now if you were 15 at that time that would make you 76 years old now?
If you are really 76 years old, I apologize and rescend all my above comments.
If you aren't 76 years old,..........

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
Mac:
Well "POP", Your statement..."I can post a Photo of a Brownie that would have that thing you posted for breakfast." Now you cannot post it except to email? What happened, your scanner broke? .

I told you to send me your E-mail address, and I'll post you the picture!

As someone who actually has faced a few charging wounded Brown and Grizzly Bears I'll say the biggest RIFLE you can HONESTLY handle well is the right choice. I know two folks who have used shotguns (one was a guide and another a state game warden) on bears and both claim they will never do it again due to poor penetration.
From my experience the .458 Win hits with more authority than either the .375 H&H or the .416 Rem. Most African PH's with real experience say the same.

It is good to get a reply from someone who has some experience on this. What happens to those bears that are blinded by buckshot? Does someone else have to sort them out? Do they go one to be a danger to others? Ive shot enough deer with slugs to be a little dubious about their use on big and tough stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
I told you to send me your E-mail address, and I'll post you the picture!

Mac, if it is any help at all, I'd be happy to post the picture for you if you send it to me. My email is in my profile (although I think you already have it).

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
I told you to send me your E-mail address, and I'll post you the picture!

Mac, if it is any help at all, I'd be happy to post the picture for you if you send it to me. My email is in my profile (although I think you already have it).

Charles, Yes I have your E-mail, but TJ is the one who wants to see the picture! I have no problem sending it to you,if you want it, but I'm not interested in haveing pictures of my hunting trophies posted on the forum. I really don't know why I'm bothering with TJ either, I'm normally a very private person! He seems a little on the angry side, and You know, can't take someone disagreeing with his opinion!


Qwick to anger, reveals an abundance of secrets, on occasion!

This started out as a <<<SMILE>>> jab at his ribs for, what I considered, and still consider, an untried foolish act, and I still believe it is untried by him! Useing buck shot on a 1000 lb WOUNDED brown bear, is not my idea of a formula for long life! Heavon is my home, but I'm not homesick!

I guess he's got more balls, or less judgement than me! Maybe both! OH well, it's his butt not mine.

Thanks for the offer!

How is the 9.3X74R double doing? I haven't had a chance to work up any loads for the last two new double rifles I have, and my April hunt is comming fast on my heels!

Nice to hear from you!

Hey MAC!"POP", How you doing?
I'm happy to see you are not a man of your word, "This is my last word on the subject!"
and "I will not post further on this string! BYE!".
Please send the pics of your huge Brown Bear to Charles_Helm and let the world see how big he is. I wait with bated breath to see one that will "eat mine for breakfast."
I don't send my email to the internet, because I don't want all the spam crap.
I'm not angry, I'm having fun! You can differ with my opinion all day long, as long as you don't call me,"Foolish", "Quick to anger", "Less judgement than me," "Light in the head", "Insane," "Asshole," etc.
You didn't answer my questions yet?.....
How old are you?
How many bears have your killed?
And yes, I have in fact killed Brown Bears with Buckshot.

When I first saw title of this thread, I
thought it was about constipated grizzlys , made that way by eating too many screwy
greenies...Enough of that.....From pics of charging bears, I would want the hairyiest of
my wildcats, as I figure only getting one
shot, so I would want to knock him ass over teakettle.Ed.

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
Hey MAC!"POP", How you doing?
I don't send my email to the internet, because I don't want all the spam crap.
.

If you want to see the bear send me your E-mail address! If you don't then shut the f... up!

MAC,

I've got no dog in this fight, but as an observer and in the interest of possible helping end this squabble, I just thought I'd mention that while TJ may appear somewhat irascible to you, I'd say he's just reacting to the insults and belitting remarks.

You may have meant them toungue-in-cheek, but they don't read that way. In my neck of the woods, "son" is a disparaging word if it isn't used by your own father (ie. it implies the superiority of the one using it). Similarly, implying someone is "light in the head" or "insane" is a sure way to make an argument personal instead of about the facts.

Anyway, I am not taking sides here, just tryin' to be helpful.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by TJ:
Antlers:
My favorite however, is a Rem. 870, 12 gauge with "OO" or "OOO" buck. The object is not to "kill" the bear, its to keep the bear from killing you. A load of buck in the face will blind or change a bears mind.

I certainly hope you don't have to test that theory! Buck shot are notorious for wounding, and looseing whitetail deer, and not stopping criminals shot with it by cops!

Canuck, the above is my first post! And I fail to see any derogatory wording in that post!

The rift started later when he INFORMED me he was stateing FACT, Not theory! I simply disagreed with him, and stated the reasons why I was of that opinion! Maybe the word "SON" did the trick, but that is a local thing, and was not meant to indicate superiority. That is my fault, but the resoponse to the post, that it was in, was pure anger! Now I'm pissed, and respond! And the tune goes on!!!!!!!

The action he implies as a sound idea, is now not something I simply disagree with, it is something I will not accept with out rebuttal!

I still think anyone who follows a wounded Brown Bear into the willows with a shotgun is a very unwise person, there is no other way to say that!

As I said before, if the shoe fits.........

MAC,

I didn't see anything wrong with your first post. And near as I can tell his reply to it was just documenting his experience hunting bears in Alaska and using shotguns. I didn't think it got argumentative until you poo-poo'ed his experience by calling it rhetoric, and referring to him as "son". He reacted and it escalated from there.

I figured out how to read your posts a long time ago (like reading body language, so to speak), so I wouldn't have been offended by your choice of words. But I can still see how you manage to push people buttons, however unintentionally.

Anyway, I'll reiterate that I am just trying to be helpful. I don't normally stick my nose into things like this but I KNOW that you were not intentionally trying to make this into a pissing match, and hopefully TJ will see that too. Then maybe we can get back to arguing our opinions and not each other's "shortcomings".

Cheers,
Canuck

I've never used one and would probably never buy one for the kind of hunting I do, but wouldn't a Remington pump or semi-auto in .35 Whelan be enough for these animals? I know they're the biggest land carnivore on the planet but I never heard they were extremely bullet resistant.