A shotgun loaded with hard buckshot will stop and soft skinned animal like a bear, Lion or Leopard dead in its tracks at 5 yds. but as that distance increases it becomes pretty close to worthless...I don't want anything mad with teeth, claws or bad breath within 5 ft. of me when I kill it....

I think the 30-06 with 200 or 220 gr. Noslers is a good enough for any kind of bear rifle, even Alaskan browns, its also a fine African Lion or Leopard rifle...

I would want a 416 Rem or 404 or something larger as a "back up" rifle...A guide should carry such a rifle. If hunting Alaskan bear alone I would carry a big bore rifle..

From my existing battery I'd use my .458 Win M77 without hesitation. It's slick as butter and functions 100% from the day I bought it. It fits me like a glove and points/shoulders like a custom built rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Charles, Yes I have your E-mail, but TJ is the one who wants to see the picture! I have no problem sending it to you,if you want it, but I'm not interested in haveing pictures of my hunting trophies posted on the forum.

I understand.

quote:

How is the 9.3X74R double doing? I haven't had a chance to work up any loads for the last two new double rifles I have, and my April hunt is comming fast on my heels!

Nice to hear from you!

The double is languishing in the closet. I had hoped to take it out again in February but the opportunity did not materialize. Now I have a hunt approaching that I'm going to need my "bolt rifle trash" (to quote NE 450 No2) for and I am way behind in getting ready for that one.

Good luck in April.

Mac, Please let us see the bear.Please.

Thanks Jerry

WOW... I've been on the road for most of the last two weeks and havent had access to this thread, so imagine my surprise to find it's still going. When I started this thing I was hoping that some with experience would provide some input.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win: As someone who actually has faced a few charging wounded Brown and Grizzly Bears I'll say the biggest RIFLE you can HONESTLY handle well is the right choice. I know two folks who have used shotguns (one was a guide and another a state game warden) on bears and both claim they will never do it again due to poor penetration.
From my experience the .458 Win hits with more authority than either the .375 H&H or the .416 Rem. Most African PH's with real experience say the same.

I will consider Mr. Shoemaker's word on the subject as settling the shotgun question - at least for me. I will definetly give some thought to purchasing and rechambering the Remington double - if and when they're available. I also think the 1895 or the 7600 in .411 Hawk or 400 Whelen has some potential. In the meantime, I'll probably use the 416 this spring and spend some time practicing for speed.

Antler:
I don't know Mr. Shoemaker. Is he the Shoemaker who writes for some of the hunting mags? If so, here's one of his quotes,
"On occasion, when an individual bear became too agressive, I would confront it with my Winchester Model 12. A single round of No.6s in the chamber backed by a magazine stuffed with Brenneke slugs."
I wonder, did I misread that, or did he change his mind?
I was not going kick a dead dog and keep my mouth shut, but my TV is broke and I can't watch Oprah or Jerry Springer.
I found the above quote and was courious.

TJ,
The start of this thread was for trailing wounded bears into the thick stuff.
I think you are confusing what Phil is saying about a non wounded, curious bear that he wants to move away.
Actually, I think a lever action in a .450 AK would be the best tool for the above scenario.

TJ, you have a good memory. Now go back and re-read my piece and you'll see I was talking bout interior black bears that weight 150 pounds. I don't care what anyone else carries into the brush after a wounded grizzly or brown bear. they can use a single shot .410 if they want. I for one have found out from twenty five years of guiding for brown bears, and over a hundred bears taken, that big rifles work best for me.

Phil:
I did read your story, and it is about Black Bears. However, I reread all the posts from the originator of this thread and he never mentioned the type of bear. His original post was about "trailing wounded bears."
Next, "Maybe someone has some experience with slugs on bears,"
And, "I hunt both Blacks and Browns."
I assumed from that, that the conversation was about "bears " in general. I guess I was wrong.
By the way, I shot my first Brown Bear at Jack Lewis Camp at Meshik in 1967. It was with a 338 not a shotgun. I was working on his airplane when the bear stumbled along. I guess that means I've been killing Brown Bears for 38 years. I personally have shot several dozen, and as you say, "several dozen taken", I assume by hunters you were guiding?
I see your on Becherof Lake, do you know the Flynns or Don Johnson? Or Jack Lewis when he was alive? I know the Flynns and have worked with Don when he was alive.
I know for a fact that Jack Lewis used a Browning Semi 12 gauge to finish off wounded bears in heavy brush. I've finished off a few with a 12 gauge, and it works under the right circumstances.
Not looking for a dog fight, I just want to set the record straight, and let the rest of the folks here know, there are two sides to the story.
The conclusion....You use what you want to.... I'll use what I want to. Deal?
T.J. Hinkle

TJ

You don't happen to know an old boy that live's there and teaches at the collage or did
Fritz Miller .....

Fritz started using a 300 Weatherby and ended up using a 460 and his ? i think he also used a shotgun as backup in the boat for brown bear

Yep. I think I know Fritz. He was a welding instructor I believe? Nice guy.

That's him

I think you and i have talked once before about old fritz .....

Would you know if that old fat's still around ...

He's the one that bought himself a Enfield
and had it convert to a 460 Weatherby
and used it for bear..

Nice rifle but it kicked like hell and was about the uglyest 460 i have ever seen
Fritz also used the shotgun with slugs as back up ..... while he putted around in that boat of his ..Fritz's idea of hunting brown bear was wading in the water for them...Only a guy built like an ox would hunt like he used to.

Great guy ...

The .50 Alaskan. Harold Johnson of Kenai designed it for stopping Brown Bear at short ranges. You
can have a .348 Winchester Model 71 altered for it.
I had one, but a Rem Rolling Block single shot...
shot hardened alloy lead of near 700 grains at
1750 fps. If you work the figures, its Taylor's
"Knock Out" factor is higher than the .458 WinMag,
or .416 Rem. That .50 cal 700 gr bullet (gas checked) will do the job just fine at ranges under 100 yds. Tom

It just blows my mind that Canada would have a law telling a forestry employee workin in the deep wild country that produces bears, wild cats and other "man killers", that he or she would not be allowed to carry a side arm in addition to a rifle/shotgun.
Maybe we need to take the politicians out and leave them in the woods with a knife, spoon and compass and see what happens (maybe tie some salmon to them...chuckle)
Bob

I think we may all have missed the target by a wee bit. The .375 or equvilent has more than enough power to stop a brown bear. You must hit shoulders,or brain the bugger if you wish him to stay put for a second one if needed. There isnt a bear past or present that will stand up to that kind of inmoblization. We in the U.S. have been conditioned to shoot for the boiler room, while this will eventualy kill the game but it wont disable. This is one of the many reasons why some African countrys have adopted a min bore size. I never could figure that reasoning out, a gut shot animal is gut shot no matter what sort of cannon you shot him with and an animal that is too close for comfort wont be stopped by a shot through the lungs, he will either run you over in the process of trying to get away, or have to be tracked and possibly lost wich you will pay for any way in most places. I personaly have broken myself of the short rib lung/ heart shot and aim for the front or off shoulder no matter what im hunting. I have seen dramatic home movies of large animals being pounded by large caliber guns and the animal, while staggared, either kept his feet or mozied down the trail. All the shots where lung/heart hits, not a one hit shoulder bone or the barage of high energy rounds wouldnt be needed.On finishing shot would be all that it would take. This has been my experience in the game fields, and is shared by many others who have had very close an uncomfortable encounters with large animals, some have been tragic i am sorry to say. Thats what i think. Charlie

Yeah, that is the way it is in "the true north, strong and free"; in fact, the Alberta Forest Service and the B.C. Forest Service forbid employees to carry any sort of gun on the job. I understand that this practice is now more common than it was and that said rules are often ignored; I carried what the fuck I wanted to, but, I knew that a "career path" was not in my future.

Too much government and too many foreigners in government, that's the problem.

Charlie:
Be careful there. You will be beat severely about the head and shoulders, if you mention anything but a heart/lung shot. I brought it up a few months ago and had a regular donnybrook with a couple of the world renown PHs who frequent here.
My original question was, why do the PHs in Africa recommend a heart/lung and the Guides in Alaska say, break bones? I never did get an answer.
One guy even accused me of not knowing, that an animal didn't have a shoulder, it was a scapula.
I personally think the reason is part of the "mystic" of hunting in Africa.
If your out there in the"JESS",( what ever in the hell that is,) after the old "DUGGA BOY", (I think that means a Buffalo,) then you need to have a good blood trail, so the blacks can follow it. I guess the object is to have a good blood trail, so the blacks can earn their keep, not to kill the animal.
I've hunted in Alaska a long time and have never see many blacks, so I try to break bones. I want the animal down, I don't want to track him for a mile or so.
In Africa, you may have to change your sight picture, and shoot for heart/lungs instead of bones.

TJ, Africa has changed qutie a bit i presume, i havent been there in ten years or so,and i guess the game has become docile. We all must do our share to help the local ecomomy out by letting them do their part. Now before anyone goes off on the wrong foot i spent 9 summers as a young lad and some of my fondest memorys are with George Mugombo and his family. I agree with you and scapula or not i will break it every time and then he can beat about the head and shoulders,rather than the beast i have just killed has a go at me instead. Times have changed us all,but some of us hang on to the old ways. I have had a talk with some one who had returned from a Lepoard hunt and he said his P.H. let the cat out over night to die! They found it the next day and it wasnt in too bad shape. Taxidermists are expensive enough, lets not make their job any harder. Keep up the good fight and dont let anyone change your mind. Thats what i think. Charlie