GSC vs NF vs CEB, has anyone compared these on an even playing field?

Say we pick three different diameters: .375, .475, .585 inches.
From each of the companies we get flat tips and expanding bullets.
In identical grain weights we test them for all they are supposed to do.
Which will be top penetrator? Which will be the best expanding bullet.
Wonder if Michael & Sam think this is worth it, maybe Hubel458, maybe
Robgunbuilder, maybe Jeffeosso, maybe...

Tests should be done at D/R and Bolt Action velocities.

quote:

Originally posted by D R Hunter:
GSC vs NF vs CEB, has anyone compared these on an even playing field?

Say we pick three different diameters: .375, .475, .585 inches.
From each of the companies we get flat tips and expanding bullets.
In identical grain weights and we test them for all they are supposed to do.
Which will be top penetrator? Which will be the best expanding bullet.
Wonder if Michael & Sam think this is worth it, maybe Hubel458, maybe Rob-
gunbuilder, maybe Jeffeosso, maybe...

Tests should be done at D/R and Bolt Action velocities.

I have a question, I don't know what the GSC, NF or CEB, I keep seeing it, what does it mean?

quote:

Originally posted by Alaskaman11:

quote:

Originally posted by D R Hunter:
GSC vs NF vs CEB, has anyone compared these on an even playing field?

Say we pick three different diameters: .375, .475, .585 inches.
From each of the companies we get flat tips and expanding bullets.
In identical grain weights and we test them for all they are supposed to do.
Which will be top penetrator? Which will be the best expanding bullet.
Wonder if Michael & Sam think this is worth it, maybe Hubel458, maybe Rob-
gunbuilder, maybe Jeffeosso, maybe...

Tests should be done at D/R and Bolt Action velocities.

I have a question, I don't know what the GSC, NF or CEB, I keep seeing it, what does it mean?

GS Custom, North Fork, and Cutting edge bullets.

Why not add Woodleigh Hydro's to the list
since they are now loaded in Factory ammo
so available to more people ?

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
Why not add Woodleigh Hydro's to the list
since they are now loaded in Factory ammo
so available to more people ?

The 3 I named all have USA production ops. I don't know enough about W Hs.
At a glance the three that I named "look" much like each other,
flat tips to flat tips, (elephant, rhino, fleeing STRAIGHT AWAY buff)
and expanders to expanders, ( first shot at buff, all at lion, all at
leopard) and I don't know what hippo on land ought to be shot with.

Woodleigh Hydro's will handle all those.

End to end on a Fleeing Buff no problems.

They Penetrate like a solid but do damage
like a soft (as in wound channel) even though
they don't open up as such.

They work well.

We all gain if they really compete with the three
I named! Test 'em all on even ground.

Uh Oh, seems NF diameter tops out at .510 Inch.

Better change the three testing diameters to:
.510 inch, .435 inch and .375 inch

Remember a .425 Westley Richards uses a .435
inch diameter bullet.

quote:

The 3 I named all have USA production ops.

Not sure what you mean by that but
I thought Federal ammo was made
in the US ?

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

The 3 I named all have USA production ops.

Not sure what you mean by that but
I thought Federal ammo was made
in the US ?

And aren't GS bullets initially made in SA, and just distributed in the USA?

A direct head-to-head comparison of these bullets would be really interesting!

quote:

Originally posted by D R Hunter:
GSC vs NF vs CEB, has anyone compared these on an even playing field?

Say we pick three different diameters: .375, .475, .585 inches.
From each of the companies we get flat tips and expanding bullets.
In identical grain weights we test them for all they are supposed to do.
Which will be top penetrator? Which will be the best expanding bullet.
Wonder if Michael & Sam think this is worth it, maybe Hubel458, maybe
Robgunbuilder, maybe Jeffeosso, maybe...

Tests should be done at D/R and Bolt Action velocities.

DR

All of these bullets have been tested repeatedly on the Terminal Performance Thread in many different calibers, but not all at the same time. Been there, done it. I can already tell you which is going to do what. There are no available solids that have not been tested, and there are hundreds of prototypes that have been tested.

Michael

DR,

The Terminal Bullet Performance thread is rather daunting at its current 274 pages - but from the tests that Michael, Sam, and a few other individuals have performed - but you would be well served with FN solids or expanding/NonCon bullets from CEB, GSC, NF, or S&H in any calibers they offer bullets for.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
DR,

The Terminal Bullet Performance thread is rather daunting at its current 274 pages - but from the tests that Michael, Sam, and a few other individuals have performed - but you would be well served with FN solids or expanding/NonCon bullets from CEB, GSC, NF, or S&H in any calibers they offer bullets for.

I shall take up the hobby of reading the T B P thread and soak up all that I can from it!
I've read some of it but surely not half. Onward and upward...

D.R.,

I haven't used the GS Custom so I can't comment on it. I have used the NF, CEB #13, and Hydro solids on elephants from a 470. In my experience all three penetrated to about the same depth on frontal head shots on elephants. I consistently recovered the bullets just behind the scapula in the loin meat. All also penetrated and exited on side body shots so I can't say which went further but can say that they all penetrated more than enough.

465H&H

quote:

And aren't GS bullets initially made in SA, and just distributed in the USA?

For the record, GSC is now made in the USA as well. We are in the process of changing the order and price list pages at www.gscustomusa.com to reflect the made in USA prices.

Given that there is little, if anything, to choose between the terminal performance of the bullets mentioned, it boils down to which is easiest to load, which is most reliable/consistent, which will leave the rifle easiest to clean and which is kindest to the bore of your rifle?

Thanks for the "USA-made" info Gerard.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
Given that there is little, if anything, to choose between the terminal performance of the bullets mentioned...

Regarding the above, do you think we may have reached the "pinnacle of DGR bullet design", if indeed all these new bullets perform similarly?

Peter

Differences between the terminal performance of the current range of DG bullets are pretty close together. Most are good and some are a little better. The key difference is in reliability here.

The big difference between the current crop of DG bullets is in other areas: How user friendly are they to load, how do the bullets treat the barrel of the rifle and how much of a chore is it to clean the rifle?

There is always room for improvement. A manufacturer must continually learn and improve. The learning curve and improvement never stops.

I tested both GSC 260 gr and NF 300 percussion point NF in my 375 HH for a lion hunt. Both are excellent bullets, but there is no doubt you will get higher velocity at the same pressure, same weight, with GSC HV compared to NF. I could not exceed 2750 with 260 gr accubonds without pressure signs. With GSc i comfortably got 2890, no pressure signs. The GSC HV is a longer bullet with a high ballistic coefficient; great for longer range
No experience with CEB,
However, Nosler partitions are definitely not in the same league as the NF and GSC

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

quote:

And aren't GS bullets initially made in SA, and just distributed in the USA?

For the record, GSC is now made in the USA as well. We are in the process of changing the order and price list pages at www.gscustomusa.com to reflect the made in USA prices.

Given that there is little, if anything, to choose between the terminal performance of the bullets mentioned, it boils down to which is easiest to load, which is most reliable/consistent, which will leave the rifle easiest to clean and which is kindest to the bore of your rifle?

Gerard,

I didn't see any 600NE/600OK FN listed on your US site. Are you planning to add them?

If they are in the works, will they be .620 or .613?

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by D R Hunter:
GSC vs NF vs CEB, has anyone compared these on an even playing field?

Say we pick three different diameters: .375, .475, .585 inches.
From each of the companies we get flat tips and expanding bullets.
In identical grain weights we test them for all they are supposed to do.
Which will be top penetrator? Which will be the best expanding bullet.
Wonder if Michael & Sam think this is worth it, maybe Hubel458, maybe
Robgunbuilder, maybe Jeffeosso, maybe...

Tests should be done at D/R and Bolt Action velocities.

DR

All of these bullets have been tested repeatedly on the Terminal Performance Thread in many different calibers, but not all at the same time. Been there, done it. I can already tell you which is going to do what. There are no available solids that have not been tested, and there are hundreds of prototypes that have been tested.

Michael

Michael,

You did test a fistful of different 600 bullets - virtually all that are made. Unfortunately neither NF nor Woodleigh Hydros wee made in .620 so weren't among those tested head-to-head.

Be nice to see a test of the current crop of premium expanding bullets as well, one caliber would do.

I have used the GS Customs in the 375, 404, 416 and 9.3s, same for the North Forks..The GS Customs monolithics are absolutly awesome bullets in the HVHP and the flat nose solid..GS customs work on plainsgame, and all the big stuff with perfection. there is no better Buffalo, Lion bullet than the cup point and the flat nose solid is elephant fodder. The HP are fail proof on buffalo, Lion and Hippo and all plainsgame.

The North Fork softs and cup points are as good as bullets get on every animal I have used them on that is most all but elephant..I have a cigar box full of North Fork softs and you cannot tell one fromt he other, they are boreingly consistent, look like mushrooms. I love the cup points in the big bores and double rifles, especially for buffalo.

I have no experience with the CEB, it appears the front end of the hollow points blow off and the solid base penetrates like the dickens. that type of bullet has been around for a long time and without compliants..

I still love the Woodleighs and Nosler partitions, they have not failed me. I have not use the new fangled solid Woodliegh came out with, but I see no reason not to keep using the old Woodleigh RN solid, its always worked for me..

Bottom line is the bullet manufacturers have done their job and kudos to them for that..The only hitch is they took and old aguement and fireside conversation and really made it a non conventional conversation, as its now a waste of time, all the bullets work these days, dammit!!

I remember the days of bullet failure, and it was often, but I have not had a bullet fail for some time now..I had 3 failures with the early Barnes, but that is said to be fixed now..

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Be nice to see a test of the current crop of premium expanding bullets as well, one caliber would do.

I may be wrong - and I'm on my iPad so don't have access to the PDF files on my PC - but I believe Michael has tested just about all premium expanding and NonCon bullets in .458 caliber. Maybe he'll spend the time to post the bullet box performance photographs of these bullets.

CCMDoc,

quote:

I didn't see any 600NE/600OK FN listed on your US site. Are you planning to add them?

We have been making them for some time (at least 5 or 6 years) but we do not sell many and just about every order has been a custom size. They are not on the Tech Data pages but are listed on the Orders section. Tell me what barrel size you have and we will ensure that the bullets are the right size.

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/orderfnusa.html

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Be nice to see a test of the current crop of premium expanding bullets as well, one caliber would do.

I may be wrong - and I'm on my iPad so don't have access to the PDF files on my PC - but I believe Michael has tested just about all premium expanding and NonCon bullets in .458 caliber. Maybe he'll spend the time to post the bullet box performance photographs of these bullets.

I think that I have many, if not most of the tests here in the B&M terminal pages for various calibers;

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...nal-Performance.html

There may be some that I missed along the way, no doubt, but most can be found within this.

As for .458 caliber....

4 pages with various .458 caliber cartridges...

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...let-Performance.html

Michael

quote:

Michael,

You did test a fistful of different 600 bullets - virtually all that are made. Unfortunately neither NF nor Woodleigh Hydros wee made in .620 so weren't among those tested head-to-head.

Doc.... Yes, when we had your rifle here we tested everything we could get our hands on, stuff you sent, #13s and so forth...... No Hydros, North Forks...... Not made at the time, and not sure if made now....

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Michael,

You did test a fistful of different 600 bullets - virtually all that are made. Unfortunately neither NF nor Woodleigh Hydros wee made in .620 so weren't among those tested head-to-head.

Doc.... Yes, when we had your rifle here we tested everything we could get our hands on, stuff you sent, #13s and so forth...... No Hydros, North Forks...... Not made at the time, and not sure if made now....

M

Here is a link to some of the lineup you tested near the top of the page and the data further down:
600 lineup and data

And a few pages with info and photos of those tests:

600 OK test 1

600 OK test 2

600 OK test 3

quote:

The one bullet I am going to discuss here before moving on is the GSC bullet. This bullet came in at 750 grs, but .615 caliber, not .620???? Not sure why.

The bullets were probably made for a 600NE. The CIP/SAAMI/Specification for a 600NE and a 600OK are different. A sure sign that the bullet is the wrong size for the given caliber/case is the fact that it needs a crimp. GSC bullets must not be crimped.

We make different sizes for a caliber and one must ensure that the bullet is suitable for the cartridge/caliber in which it is used. Often a double rifle or vintage bolt rifle requires a special size and then we supply it to suit. Where a size is not specified, we go with the CIP/SAAMI spec. There is little point in supplying a bullet that may be over size for a given barrel. Doubles delaminate very easily when that happens.