Posted on the Terminal Ballistics thread also, home of CEB bullets:

An idea for a .395 bullet based on the CEB Flat Base Hunting Bullet:
I really like that band structure whether in copper or brass.
A generic light weight bullet to fit 5 different .395 chamberings.
In brass it might go as light as 230 grains for a hollow point, heavier for the solid.

A copper hollow point with higher BC nose shape might still be pretty light if kept down to 1.150" length overall.

The meplat for the 2 cross-hatched FN nose shapes is 68% of caliber.

The meplats for the hollow point nose shapes are smaller, for BC sake, for varmints, African plains game, and North American game.

For a 7 to 8 pound .395 Ruger Max or .395 H&H.

The 230 grain bullet, as you say would probably be the best plains game bullet in Africa OR the USA. Your dimensions are sound, from the drawing. I'm in for my share of the bullets.
Max

Max,
Good.
How about we just concentrate on getting a Flat Base Hunting bullet from CEB?
Made in brass about 230 grains,
made in copper like the CEB .308 FBH, a bit heavier.
There is plenty of wiggle room in the nose shape and length to make the weight.
Solids that light will not be as useful as a more ballistic hollow point.

Now to see if Doc M can grease the skids, before or after he gets back from safari.

That lovely Flat base hunter is already programmed in .308 at CEB ...
Just make the major diameter .395", same step down and other linear specs on the bands ...
Shorten the nose and make the base 1/2" long ...
Easier to machine in brass than copper ...
Voila!
A .395/230-grain Brass Flat Base Hunter,
and a .395/240-grain Copper Flat Base Hunter ... if specific gravities of brass and copper are 8.5 and 8.9 respectively, the copper one should only weigh about 5% more than the brass one of same dimensions ...
But the hollowpoint dimensions might be different ...
Bigger hole in brass, smaller hole in copper?
230-grain Brass FBH, 250-grain Copper FBH?
Just shooting for a 230-grain minimum.
The "aboriginal" .395-caliber bullet weight: 230-grains

CEB: 814-345-6690

www.cuttingedgebullets.com

Who's going to call first, after the holiday, Doc M, you, or me?

Very very nice RIP!

Canuck,
Thanks!
Glad you are keeping Roy Vincent busy with the gunsmithing.
Be sure to get him to make your 450 Vincent Long feed Flat Nose solids reliably,
the .395 H&H does!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Canuck,
Thanks!
Glad you are keeping Roy Vincent busy with the gunsmithing.
Be sure to get him to make your 450 Vincent Long feed Flat Nose solids reliably,
the .395 H&H does!

Well, I was hoping to catch him before he got busy. lol Seems I am getting bumped by folks in a bigger rush. I am quite pumped at the prospect of an "original" 450 VL though. I will be sure that he has it feeding FN's slicker than whale poop on an ice floe.

Cheers! C

RIP,
The flat base hunting bullet is fine with me.
230 and 240 grains are fine with me.
I agree with the more ballistic hollow point.
I see no real need for a solid in these weights.
The difference again between the expansion of brass and copper? Guess I should read back in this thread.
As to who calls whom, doesn't matter to me.

Max,
I'll call Dan at CEB tomorrow, post any developments here, unless you beat me to it ...

speaking of shoulders, how is yours after firing such a light rifle with that cartridge.

Or, to put it another way, how is the recoil on that thing?

Recoil? Surely as gentle as a maiden's caress.
That is the deal with the thinking man's caliber, the THREE NINE FIVE:
More effective than the .375 H&H, and suitable to make up into a light, accurate, close or long range rifle.
The Ultimate African Sheep/Mountain Buffalo Rifle.

We do need a 230-grainer for varmints and sheep. That would be nice.

And I wish I had them today!. Am going after prairie dogs tomorrow, and on the 8th, going on my annual prairie dog safari in Wyoming. 50k acres of dogs!

Now that would be something, a .395 Prairie Dog Safari!
Better take both of your .395s to let them heat and cool alternately.

It's a go!

CEB is on the job!

Details to follow.

... And max concurs.

Daniel J. Smitchko
President
djsmitchko@cuttingedgebullets.com
www.cuttingedgebullets.com
Phone: (814)345-6690 ext. 203
Fax: (814)345-6506

CEB: Plans are to make a bullet next week and tell us how much it weighs in copper.
230 to 250 grains sounds reasonable, and will depend on how many refinements President Daniel Smitchko can cram into a 1.150" length.

Coming soon:

The Cutting Edge Bullets' Flat Base Hunting Bullet .395-Caliber "Lite."

Sounds very good. Only thing is which of us will get to use it first on game!

Max, it's a race then?
Well, you beat me with a Colorado elk taken with the .395/310-grain S&H Brass VeloHexploder.
I brought up the rear with Kentucky deer, and Tanzania plains game, thanks to our gracious host, Saeed.
It will be tough if I have to eat your dust on this bullet too!
Budweiser Heavy, and some Buffalo Trace from a .395 Family "Lite" shot glass:

RIP: Just kidding, old friend. Let's both do well. And, I've now gone on to Makers Mark 46!
Max

Max,
This ought to kill elk well, even beyond 300 yards.
Dan The Man at CEB estimates it at 240 grains in copper:

I take it you're relying on S & H for your solids and noncoms and not asking CEB to do a #13?

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:
I take it you're relying on S & H for your solids and noncoms and not asking CEB to do a #13?

IBT,
A "noncom" is what my Father was in the USAF for 20 years. Master Sergeant.
I think you mean NonCon?
As you were:

I am very interested in getting CEB to do the DGR Brass solids and hollow points in .395 caliber.
Due to the excellence of the S&H prototypes, we know that 310-grain softs and 330-grain FN solids of brass are hard to beat.
CEB has some 300-grainers in .375, so 310-330 grains in .395, wherever they land in there, should work great.

I am overjoyed to get such a rapid response on the first request to CEB.
Dan "The CEB Man" Smitchko is on the ball!

Word is in, the .395-caliber copper FBH from CEB is done. 240 grains, not 230 grains.
SD = .220
BC: unknown, but good enough for 300-yard shooting at game, I am sure.
Reportedly the nose hole was made larger, hollowpoint diameter increased, since initial drawing.
That was a good move, I think, as lower SD will need more help opening up the nose at lower velocity at long range. "SD drives expansion."

The race is on to see who kills something first with the new bullet,
Max and the .395 Ruger Max, or me and the .395 H&H.

Will post picture of new CEB bullet when it gets here. Will post target photos from the .395 H&H ASAP.

Terminals on this bullet need to be done on elk, or bison, or anything else available.

Hey Rip! Now hows about a .495? You got any suggestions how that could be done with one of my model 70 Winchester bolt guns? I am all ears yes indeed.

.395 is my only oddball. My head would hurt if I tried to think of a .495.

quote:

Originally posted by Blue Dog:
Hey Rip! Now hows about a .495? You got any suggestions how that could be done with one of my model 70 Winchester bolt guns? I am all ears yes indeed.

Jeffeosso is already making barrels in a sub .500" diameter.

Let's see, I've got prairie dogs that I could shoot with the new bullet, but that would not be ethical with this large caliber. Coyote? Nah. Hogs! Maybe, but summer is too hot for this. Other seasons for big game don't start in Colorado until October. I think I'll forfeit this to RIP.
Max

Blue Dog:
You gotta get your 470 Capstick squared away before you worry about jeffeosso's .498/500 Accurate Reloading.

Don't just cut off the muzzle brake. Get a thread protector made to cap it when you screw off the brake.
If you want to shorten the barrel some more, have the muzzle rethreaded for the same brake and get the thread protector done to fit the shortened barrel.
No sense in giving up a nice brake if you already have it for the rifle.
You may get old and decrepit some day and need the brake when shooting from the bench.

Max,
I am thinking like you, hogs, elk, and add bison, but not in the heat. Need prime meat and hides, not spoiled by heat, at a game farm in July.
The race may still be on.

This weekend, I will generate some QuickLOAD stuff for the new bullet, .395/240-grainer, in order of ascending ballistics:

.395/400 Nitro Express 3-Inch Aboriginal
.395 H&H
.395 Ruger Max
398 Lapua Magnum
.395 Tatanka

My real sweetheart right now is that .395/.375 H&H. It won't go as fast as the .395 Max, but it will do!

QuickLOAD start pressure for a solid soft brass bullet is only 1800 psi.
So as not to underestimate, I just use that for all the fancy-banded brass bullets and it seems to work OK.

A solid copper bullet is stickier than brass and rates a much higher start pressure in QuickLOAD, over 6000 psi.
I do not think the fancy-banded copper monometal bullets are that bad, so I am guesstimating a start pressure of 2500 psi for them.
Until proven otherwise.

Gerard Schultz hammers his GSC HV and FN fancy-banded copper bullets down a barrel bore with a wooden dowel. That cannot mean a 6000 psi start pressure!
Any insight on start pressure modeling with fancy-banded bullets would be appreciated,
from sumbuddy who know?

Rip: I think you are on the right track. Of course anyone starting with a new caliber like we are doing has to work up slowly. At least this will give me a chance to work in the cool basement this summer.

On first to get something...do butterflies count?

Max,
Stock up on RL-15 to go with those .395/240-grain Cutting Edge Bullets.

A chance to review the .395 Family, a litter of 5 wildcat kittens:



Left to right above, the Five .395s
(and the arbitrary pressures and barrel lengths used for QuickLOAD) with velocity "possible" with 240-grainer,
all seated with .750" of nose outside the case, 0.400" of base seated inside the case:

.395/400 Nitro Express: 50,000 psi, 26", 2729 fps
.395 H&H: 61,989 psi, 24", 3030 fps
.395 Max: 61,989 psi, 24", 3057 fps
398 Lapua: 68,150 psi, 26", 3296 fps
.395 Tatanka: 60,000 psi, 26", 3286 fps

************************************************************************************************

.395/400 Nitro Express


************************************************************************************************

.395 H&H


************************************************************************************************

.395 Ruger Max


************************************************************************************************
398 Lapua Magnum


************************************************************************************************

.395 Tatanka:


************************************************************************************************

Rusty McGee's new barrel vise:
He used it to take the barrel off my old .395 Tatanka to polish the chamber that was left rough by the last gunsmith who chambered it.
More about this below.



BTW, here is a homemade bolt-truing fixture Rusty invented and manufactured in his shop for his own use on bolt action rifles:



And in the rack right now left to right, below:
The offending .395 Tatanka, waiting for the chamber polishing,
somebody else's Rolling Block 32-40,
my new .395 Tatanka Ruger No.1,
and the separated barreled action and stock of my 1868 vintage Trapdoor 50-70, Lucretia Borgia, getting the spa treatment at Falls of Rough, KY.
She shall ride gain.



It seems the batch of brass (Hornady basic cylindrical .416 Rigby) that Quality Cartridge used to make my .395 Tatanka.
For whatever reason, at whatever point in manufacture, I do not know.
I got that brass 2 weeks before leaving for Tanzania last year, after waiting over a year for it, or was that 2 years?
Anyway, .395 Tatanka formed from other .416 Rigby brass, whether Norma or Hornady worked fine.
I never new I had a rough, but still tight, chamber with visible rings in the breechward end of it.
The soft brass swelled after firing and made the bolt hard to open, though excess pressure was not involved.
I can only hope that repeated loading and firing, sizing and work hardening of the base, will make the brass behave better.
And a polish of the rear half of the chamber by Rusty McGee, Mechanical Engineer/Master Gunsmith, will certainly not hurt.

I limit the .395 Tatanka to 60,000 psi,
but come to think of it, if the brass is soft,
that might be too much.
Back to my old brass, without the proper headstamp.
But the 96-grain load of H4350 with 310-grain S&H is only a mid 50-Kpsi load.
I shall endeavor to persevere in hardening my Qual-Cart brass for the .395 Tatanka with a newly polished chamber.
Then anneal the necks.

The 500 Mbogo brass from Qual Cart was also made from Hornady basic, and it was perfect.
No issues between brass, dies, chamber reamer.

Of course I do not have to load the 398 Lapua to 68,150 psi max, like the .338 Lapua Magnum CIP max, 4700 bar.

It seems that for 240-grain bullets, the case capacity of about 100 grains is ideal.

The .395 Max and .395 H&H are 1.2 grains plus and 1.6 grains minus of that, respectively.

We shall have to see what shoots best in the 2800 to 3000 fps bracket.

First shots with .395 H&H happened last weekend, I been holding out.
Not too impressive with RL-17 and 330-grain bullets.
RL-17 is too slow for the .395 H&H:



More .395 H&H to come with RL-15 and 240-grain bullets.
Any .395 H&H data is a starting point for the .395 Ruger Max.
Just add 1.8 grains of RL-15.
".395 Max" dies available from Hornady, thanks to prof242.
".395 Ruger Max" reamer available from Dave Manson.
".395 Ruger" brass: Change the "7" to a "9" in the headstamp of .375 Ruger brass from Hornady,
with your engraving pen.
Ditto .395 H&H brass, from Winchester brass, for highest capacity.

Max! Incoming!!!

The .395/240-grainer from Cutting Edge Bullets:

Box is labeled:

FBH M01
FLAT BASE HP
.395 CAL 240 GR

I shook one of the boxes and five bullets fell out so I measured them.
First impression:
They are the shiniest and smoothest copper bullets I have ever seen.
There are no tooling marks visible to me, just my fingerprints as shown in this photo:






Averages of a random 5 bullets:

Weight: 240.16 grains +/- 0.06 grains (maybe because of fingerprints, they were not all exactly the same weight)
Length: 1.153" +/- 0.001"
Diameter: 0.395" +/- 0.0000???: Too small a variation for me to measure or even guess.
However, the initial/leading driving band is slightly larger, the SEAL TITE BAND.
All other bands after that one are 0.395" precisely.
The SEAL TITE BAND diameter is top secret, until declassified.

Thanks and a Salute to Cutting Edge Bullets, and President Dan Smitchko.



BC?
I think it will be better than expected!
That nose hole is still very tiny, the bullet is very pointy!!!

Now I must go see to a "situation" involving a family member.
I shall be back.

AH-HA! We have the fingerprints of the culprit and they are of different weight.
I will be looking forward to receiving my bullets. Got to get the scope mounted on my Ruger #1 .395/.400NE so that I have the original type platform for them.
I did notice the small nose hole and considered that must increase the ballistic coefficient. Ron...we gotta do some testing. I know its a dirty job, but someone's got to do it. Might as well be you and me.
Oh, and my sincere thanks to CEB and Dan Smitchko, also. Really appreciate it.

Thats a good weight bullet for necking up the 9,3x62

Very nice! Dan did an awesome job with that bullet...as always. Perhaps we have the initial makings of another CEB series of bullets for big bore longer range.

So when will we see a “field results” look at the bullet performance??? Preferably something shot a bit further than 200yds so we can get an idea of how bullet expansion will be.

Am trying to arrange a hog hunt in Texas around the end of September/first of October. Too hot down there right now. If the bullets were here, I'd take them on today's (Wednesday) prairie dog hunt...'though I would expect a giant hole like in the Fearless Fosdick cartoon.
Max

Max,
So I gotta try to beat late Sep/early Oct, eh?

I am not ready to send bragging groups to CEB yet,
but I did stay in a Holiday In Express last Wednesday night.

When my .395 H&H was a .375 H&H, it needed some up-pressure at the forend tip bedding to shrink groups from 1.5 MOA to 0.75 MOA,
being the light-barreled specimen she was.
I may have to do the same with the .395 H&H ... unless seating the bullets to longer COL takes care of group shrinkage.
We do have 0.390" of parallel-sided freebore length on all the .395s,
and this bullet is pretty stubby.
I can seat longer.

Still first loads do provide good enough accuracy for big game to 300 yards.
I will test at 300 yards too, plus 100 yards, to estimate a BC.

I am very happy with this new bullet and how fast it goes from my 23" barrel.
I am sure I can get the accuracy up to varmint standards, soon ...

This may be my favorite rifle.

Your load work seems to be coming along fine. Unfortunately, I'm having to cope with prarie dog charges and "herd" migrations on ranchers' land hereabouts. Hasn't left much time for load development. May have to leave those little varmints alone for a week and get into some heavy load research.
Max

Max,
The .395 Ruger Max has a greater case capacity than the .395 H&H, about 3 grains of water more.
Close enough to start with the same loads of RL-15 as shown above.
If your barrel is longer than 23" and you have about 3% greater capacity, you should top 3000 fps.
Come to think of it, I can too with my .395 Ruger Max with 24" barrel.
They all have the same rifling and throating.

But first I want to play with the bedding of the .395 H&H, and COL,
then maybe H322 and Varget.
QuickLOAD is pretty good, trust but verify.

These two rifles are the most efficient powder burners with the .395/240-grain FBH-CEB:

Top, 8.75# .395 Ruger Max, 24" No. 4 Sporter, with scope and Ruger "All Weather"
Bottom, 8.0# .395 H&H, 23" No. 3.5 Sporter, with scope and Brown pounder stock
(Both smithed by Rusty McGee)