The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Most powerful rimless round under .50 caliber?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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It's time to decide what round I'm going to use in my Montana PH. I haven't thought about it much, might never get to Africa, maybe Alaska, just have a fever for something big. OTOH, there's a chance that, at least here in NY, there may be trouble on the horizon for .50cal. +. Seems a shame to use that big action or a medium bore, what do you suggest? I'm kind of surprised no one has designed a .499 in case the .50cal ban goes through. Anyway, suggestions welcomed. | ||
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470 mbogo, or 470 royale (x505 gibbs) opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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460 Steyr then 416 Barret ...  | |||
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Recoil Bob Taka a look at the 458 Lott or the 470 Capstick. The 458 Lott would be my pick for a bolt rifle. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Tony, he means for the montana ph action.. a 458 lott would be a bb rolling around in a boxcar in that action opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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.450 Rigby or .450 Dakota. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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.495 A-Square. Unless they're going to carry micrometers around, that should still work. George  | |||
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that's true, but it IS a .510 bullet opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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+2 for the .450 Rigby/Dakota in the event of a .50 cal ban in your state. Another option woud be, is build a .600 OK on it and store it at my house in Texas. Just offering my help. Rodney. | |||
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Bob: IMHO the best choice for the PH action is a .505 Gibbs because the bolt diameter will be big enough to accommodate the Gibbs. However, if you want something under .50 caliber there are really only three choices. The .450 Rigby, .450 Dakota, or the .460 Weatherby. I am in the process of having AHR build a .450 Dakota for me. When I started the project, .450 Dakota brass was much easier to get. However, now that .450 Rigby brass has become readily available, if I was starting over, I would pick the Rigby. The .460 Weatherby would be another option and the most powerful of the three but I prefer non-belted case. I would not UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE use that big long action to build a Lott of a .495 A-Square. Both of those cartridges will comfortable fit in a .375 length action and, IMHO would be a waste of the PH action. If you have the extra bolt diameter and magazine length, why not take advantage of it? Dave Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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again. anything the 450 rigby has, the 470 mbogo beats... including case length.. the ONLY 475 bigger, in a bolt gun, and would FIT THE CIRCUMSTANCES is the 470 royale. .458 aint the most powerful, gents, under.50 and go in a PH action. Please do answer the question ... of course my default answer is 458 lott in a cz .. but this aint that. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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No its the .499/600OK. A .499 caliber bullet on the .600OK case. Barrel is ( .499groove and .489 land barrel with Diane Feinsteins homely picture engraved on the ass end of the barrel in all its GLORY. Fritz 454 and I built two .50/.600's and this is the sub .50 version. Launched some nice brass solids(750gr) at 2750fps or so and will fit a PH action with no issues. Actually never pushed it, and with some effort it might go 2900 or more.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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I made a dummy of a 500 Gibbs with the .500 bullet. Michael458 has a good variety of .500 bullets as well as the 500 Cyrus bullets you can call 499  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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my 475 Gibbs (aka Royale) has to be in the running somewhere there. 600gr bullet, softs or solids; up to 2700fps. Rich Buff Killer | |||
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True enough Jeff but outside of this board, no one has ever heard of a .470 mbogo or the .475 Royale. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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far enough, dave.. but if you go to 99.99% of all shooters and ask them which is more powerful the 45/70, 458 winmag, 458 lott, and 460 smith and wesson (yes, i meant to avoid the webby) and you get a blank stare remember the 450 dakota and 450 rigby are also very YOUNG wildcats ..1995 or so, was when the rigby made book opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I checked out the .470Mbogo, very impressive 500 grains, .475" dia. and 2,500 fps velocity. This is a good choice and based off of the Rigby case also, seems like it might be a fairly easy conversion for rifles already chambered for the .416Rigby. Just seems to me that the MRC "PH" deserves a .50 plus size chambering, it is a shame about certain states laws. Rodney. | |||
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Yup, 470 Mbogo will actually do 2700 fps with 500-grainers if you want to max out the pressures. 2500 fps for the 470 Mbogo is probably about 50Kpsi, with 500-grainers. Easy conversion on the .416 Rigby rifle and cartridge case. Brass is readily available from Qualcart for the 470 Mbogo, and even the 500 Mbogo.  I have some Jamison-made 470 Mbogo brass too. The 470 Mbogo is a bigger case than both the 460 Wby and the .475 A&M. It is more powerful than both of those. The fantastic claims of the .475 A&M are brought to ridicule by what can actually be done with the 470 Mbogo. With both a bigger case and bigger bore than the 460 Wby, it easily beats the 460 Wby for any real killing parameter considered, requiring tough bullets of course. A neat thing about the 470 Mbogo is that the case capacity is near identical to the 470 NE. So, you can use 470 NE load data in it and reproduce the 470 NE ballistics, in a boltaction with a faster twist than available in the double rifles. It becomes a gentle rifle then that speaks with more authority than the 470 NE double. Ditto the 500 Mbogo versus the 500 NE. | |||
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Well said RIP. Ditto jeffe as well...biggest that answer the original question are the 470 Mbogo and 470 Royale. I'm an Mbogo-man myself. www.470mbogo.com | |||
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Given that i have built two 470 Mbogo's, I have to say there are no flies on that cartridge. It will outperform a .460wby as others have said and has a great deal of flexibility. Unfortunately, it is not well known and has only a limited but devoted following.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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i designed the 470 AR as homage to the 470 Mbogo, though in a smaller case for shorter actions. You guys can't beleive what the mbogo can do! opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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HMMMM. Something wrong with 5 rounds of .475 Ackley in a CZ 550? Damn elephants are using Kevlar again...   | |||
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I would say to hell with the ban and build wht you like. Someday they might ban all guns? Its not worht the worry. It might be grandfathered in anyway or overturned later. Life is too short. You know, worse case you sell the gun, or rechamber it. Transfer it to family out of state. Whats the point of a monster action with small bore? I live right nxt door, too stubborn or old to move. I have two favorites first one I now own in a CZ is the 505 Gibbs. It is a big fat impressive round and plenty of power in my book. Still not a super gun requiring emormous weight or muzzle brakes. The second is the 585HE, I just got a dummy from Ed Hubel and its a dandy. Same bullet as 577 NE and same head diameters as 505 gibbs. Damn impressive. But it is really big. I'd be thinking a 15 lb rifle for this baby. Edit: Dont know NY politics, but I suspect what they are really after are the 50 BMG guns. Now what if anything ever happens is a wait and see. | |||
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Actualy Eds is larger than the Gibbs... The 577 BME is made from 505 Gibbs cases. Ed's 585 is a larger case in length and width. The 577 Belted Magnum Express was to pay homage to the 577 Nitro Express and to be 3" long. The 577 BME was also designed to be a cheap CZ conversion. The 577 BME works on minimal taper ect but ask Rich... It went BOOM! Ed has been kind enough to make the cases for it and I thank him. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Has anyone done a 500,470,458 or a 416 on the trex case? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I took a caliper to my sample 585He and the rim measured .635 same as the gibbs. But the belt is ever slight larger at .655. The headstamp is GMA. That is ever so slight a rebate. I kinda hate rebates, but this one is so slight. You canot see by naked eye. Ed has the reamers to match the ammo and reloading dies so there should be no confusion. And he told me I could use a 505 gibbs action with out change to the bolt. I assume he should know. I also like the 577 BME, but it does not take full advantage of the magnum length and it has virtualy no taper. Its almost like taking a 460 weatherby and forcing a 585 bullet into case that should be limited to 550. The BME belt seems to measure a bit less than standard. Its really really tight. The HE dimensions seems pretty generous. I might prefer a 3" He, but why do that when Ed has everything linned up to go on the 3.2 inch case. If I got the courage to do a 550/577/585/600, it would be my first time and I need all the help I can get. Looks like Ed's there to support his 585. | |||
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I think the 550 Magnum (.550" bullet on the Wby case) and the 577 BME have the same taper. Yes the 585 has advantages over the 577 but the 577 BME can be made from 505 cases and if you wanted you could do a full Gibbs length version. An improvement would be to do the 3" version with a 1" long neck and a Ghost Shoulder so that you would have about 10 thou taper is over 1.75" and that is waaaaaay better than the capstick taper and probably about the same as the 585 and not have the taper over the entire length of the case but that is more mental than anything. the 577 BME will work and does work as is. My personal goal for the 577 BME was to do 750 grains @ 2150 with low preasure and if you wanted you could go as fast as you could take. Will the extra .2" matter? only in the head and not the game. To each his own and to thine self be true. Both have their advantages and it is a matter of what you like. Have fun!  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Boom, That maybe all true. I am new to this. Ed has new factory brass, factory reloading dies and chamber reamers (free for loan) all lined up - good to go. I am just a new guy to idea of custom big boomer. I need to take an easy path. Thats if I can muster up the $$$ and the courage. I have a 585 round in hand, thats real to me. And I like it. I like the sound of a 3 inch case and 2100 fps, but what the heck the extra 2/10 wont hurt and it does look good. And as far as being popular there are some others there who really want 24-2700 fps. This is a chance to set a up soemthing of a standard, suitable to all. | |||
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Ed is generous with his time and talent. Go with the 585. I am not trying to convince you otherwise. Have fun! 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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If you wanted the most powerful on the PH would it not be the 700 DA/HE??? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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UNDER .50 caliber is the thread opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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fourbore started it Sorry... I will post in the wildcats on this. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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My bad, too. | |||
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The 475 A&M Magnum. Just a thought ... Chuck Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Dave E.'s 470 Mbogo.  Keith IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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.425 Westley Richards with Horneber brass. | |||
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which ballistics? REAL ones, or the never-been-chrono'ed "published" ones? the 470 mbogo is a larger case capacity. Hands down, the most powerful "known" case under .500 opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I know jeffeosso, thought I had to mention it for completeness. Rifles were made in the caliber for a short period of time, though I think it was always definitely a wildcat. Regards, Chuck Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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I like the 425 WR but the modern revised one either without the rebate or the .532 rim. I dont think it is in the same power class as some of the above mentioned carts. Side note... I think the Rigby case maxes out the needed velocity of the 470 caliber. I do have a dummy round of the 500-505 Gibbs (.500") The 500 rule is not real anymore from what I understand but if you WANTED a sub 500 just resize the bullets by one thou and call it the 499 Gibbs. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Have the rifle built the way YOU want in whatever over .50 caliber cartridge lights your fuse. Have the gunsmith also make a second barrel of the same contour in a sub 50 caliber that is compatable with the action. If worst comes to worst you're just a trip to the smith away from being "Legal". This type of rifle build isn't about being thrifty and a barrel doesn't cost that much anyway (unless it's a fluted octagon with 1/4 rib inlayed in precious metals).  | |||
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