I was doing some bullet testing this weekend with both conventional copper and lead bullets and some Barnes homogenous bullets. In almost every test that I have done with the Barnes bullets, they have provided significantly improved penetration and much better weight retention than considerably heavier bullets in the same caliber, even premium dual core bullets. The lighter homogenous bullets seem to shoot flatter, penetrate better, and more often than not, retain almost 100% if their weight. Many of the companies that make conventional bullets are moving to make a line of homogenous bullets. I am wondering, are conventional lead bullets with copper jackets on the way out?

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Is the copper/lead bullet on its' way out?

Well if you shoot here in Kaliforniastan, the lead bullet is already "out", the copper lead bullet is "out", and as of about a week ago the geniuses in Sacramento have begun work on banning copper as well. My company is currently developing an all natural, biodegradable, metal and chemical free, high density bullet. We believe the ideal material is recycled state legislators ala Soylent Green ... only technical problem we've found thus far is that the bullets smell REAAAAALLY bad ...

what the hell, their trying to ban copper. copper has no poisonous atributes to it what so ever. They are retarded and have made it obviously clear that they aren't trying to protect birds. their agenda is purely to stop hunting or shooting

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copper has no poisonous atributes to it what so ever

Actually it's quite deadly to marine life and their "cover" is to prevent run-off into the water supply. Copper based marine anti-fouling bottom paints are highly effective in preventing marine growth and have been banned for a while. Guess we'll have to find other ways to wire electrical systems since someone somewhere is eventually gonna throw a foot of wire in the dump and that's gonna leach into ground water and flow into the ocean and sharks will be mutated into nocturnal quadrupedal menaces ...

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Originally posted by Macifej:
sharks will be mutated into nocturnal quadrupedal menaces ...

Aren't those called "Liberals"?

Anti fouling paint also usually contained lead.

What about copper roofs, lightning rods and copper strips on the peaks to kill shingle fungus. Maybe roof fungus is also protected! Kalifornia must be a quite the pristine wilderness with all these ecco laws. Should I visit soon? The grizzly must have made a come back too.

The pressure treated lumber at home depot is treated with a copper chemical. That was supposed to be the 'safe' alternative to creosote. More bans?

Maybe we should ban the penny! And thats one I would definitely support. My 20c adjusted for inflation.

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Originally posted by Bob Nisbet:
Anti fouling paint also usually contained lead.

white lead, to be specific, amazingly toxic and goes right into the ecosystem.. and is absorbed through the skin .. a reason for painters dying young, in fact .. there's a historical society that makes a MOCK white lead .. which can also be used as a hidden ink, again, highly toxic, readily absorbed

If metallic copper and lead are that poisonous in the environment, then the entire nation of France should be barren and uninhabitable given the tens of millions of expended munitions in the ground. I guess the copper ban would rule out brass and bronze too.

Boomy - DELETE YOUR POST!!! The freakin' idiots get enough stupid ideas on there own!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah there is no CO2 in gunpowder... It works on non toxic pixie dust and hope.

The few libs we have here own guns so we are safe

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Boomy - DELETE YOUR POST!!! The freakin' idiots get enough stupid ideas on there own!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, we don't want to confuse anyone, since we ALL know the science behind gunpowder. Gun powder is essentially just black salt. The "smoke" you see when the gun is fired isn't CO2 at all, it's actually fog caused by a warmer air mixing with a cooler air (similar to the effect on a persons breath in snowy weather, sans the carbon dioxide we exhale). When the gun fires, the gunpowder (i.e. black salt) heats up and collects moisture from the air, thus creating the fog at the end of the barrel. The fog repidly dissipates into the atmosphere when it cools to the same temperature as the surrounding atmosphere. Not only is the fog created by gunpowder safe, it is green and environmentally friendly (and highly beneficial to plant life).

What is really detrimental to the environment is all the methane gas those greenies spew out their rear ends from their increased vegetable intake.

Guys, I would like to bring the thread back on track here. My original question was not about environmental concerns with lead. What I was asking is (1) do you believe that homogenous bullets provide superior performance than even premium lead/copper bullets and, if so, (2) do you think there is/will be a trend away from lead/copper bullets?

Not to get off subject, but all this crap in Kalifornistan kinda makes me want to take a bunch of cad balls from the plating tanks and make it into shot......se how they like that!

Did I mention it is contaminated with cyanide?

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do you believe that homogenous bullets provide superior performance than even premium lead/copper bullets and, if so, do you think there is/will be a trend away from lead/copper bullets?

Heck, I think the non-premium cheap Remington and Federal ammo is pretty good stuff. It's been very effective on deer, hogs, addax, oryx, and the like for me. The only place I think it's on it's way out is in the freaking part of my state where the lead-eating condors (supposedly) live. I think the lower cost of lead ammo is going to keep it around.

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Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
Not to get off subject, but all this crap in Kalifornistan kinda makes me want to take a bunch of cad balls from the plating tanks and make it into shot......se how they like that!

Did I mention it is contaminated with cyanide?

Cadmium and cyanide ... - NOPE, don't think it will be effective on the intended zombies ... wouldnt they have to be alive to begin with ...?

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Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Guys, I would like to bring the thread back on track here. My original question was not about environmental concerns with lead. What I was asking is (1) do you believe that homogenous bullets provide superior performance than even premium lead/copper bullets and, if so, (2) do you think there is/will be a trend away from lead/copper bullets?

Dave,
I'm not yet convinced that expanding homogenous bullets are superior to Nosler partitions, Swift A-frames or the bonded lead-core bullets (NF, Swift, etc.). I'm not saying they aren't comparable, just not yet convinced of their superiority.

Assuming equal efficacy, for me it would come down to 1) accuracy and 2) availability. For some 3) cost and 4) availability in factory-loaded ammuition.

Dave, I believe many people find the "regular" bullets in factory Remington, Winchester, etc. to work perfectly well for most hunting. A box of 30-06 150 grain Remingtons Core-Loc can be had for less than $10. At these prices, a day at the range or a day using the deer rig for prairie dogs, wood chucks, squirrels can be affordable. Premium bullets - whether lead based or homogenous - just won't be used as much if "premium priced".

So in answer to your second question, there may be a trend away but in the big scheme, I don't think it will be noticable for the general hunting population who will take their deer, antelope, elk etc with the "regular, old standby".

May be different for Big Bores since the price of ammo is much greater so the bullet cost differential is less.

The trend I've noticed is that I tend to use whatever's on my bench...which includes both cup & core bullets and copper bullets!

In my opinion, you should pick the best bullet for the job at hand. On some occasions that will be a mono-metal bullet and in others a jacketed lead core bullet. I can't see that any mono-metal bullet is any better and in some ways may be not as good as premium lead/jacketed design. You really can't surpass the usefulness of a large caliber Swift A-Frame, North Fork soft or even a Nosler Partition with any mono-metal bullet. In fact in some cases as on buffalo I prefer the lead/jacketed bullets. With solids, I may need not need the added penetration of the FN mono-metal bullet over the steel jacketed lead core bullet. It may in fact be a detriment when hunting elephants in a herd situation where over penetration may mean a shoot through wounding or killing a non-targeted animal. Also many rifles have too slow of a twist to stabilize the longer Mono-metal bullet, forcing you to go to a lighter and therefore shorter bullet. When you do you give up some penetration and more importantly some hitting power.

465H&H

Might find this thread from a sister forum interesting (hope that's OK GeorgeS)

Barnes failure

Given the excellent monolithic copper, brass and bronze bullets now on the market, I see little need for the use of lead as a bullet material any longer.

The only uses that I can think of would be for some double rifles and muzzle loaders.

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Originally posted by Abob:
Might find this thread from a sister forum interesting (hope that's OK GeorgeS)

Barnes failure

Hi Jim,


had the exact same thing happen with a lead-core, round nose soft point - that had passed through two trees and lodged in the aft-end bark of the 2nd.

Of course it was .620" in diameter so wouldnt be a problem expanding or otherwise, but just goes to show that even a lead-core, RN soft will do that.

Here are some pictures - Kodiak 900grain .620" soft point out of 600 Overkill at 2250fps. Passed through big tree in background and comically lodged in this smaller tree with soft lead nose exposed.

I shoot Barnes TSX'S in all my rifles.

They are at least, if not more, as accurate as the Sierra Match BTHP's & Nosler Ballistic Tip's in my rifles.

On game performance has been perfect: Excellent mushrooms. Excellent weight retention. Amazing penetration.

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I am wondering, are conventional lead bullets with copper jackets on the way out?

Not as long as they continue to be cheaper; they still work fine on deer size animals

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Originally posted by Abob:

quote:

I am wondering, are conventional lead bullets with copper jackets on the way out?

Not as long as they continue to be cheaper; they still work fine on deer size animals

That's right! Unless they outlaw bullets that contain lead in other places, they will continue to be used because they are less expensive. Because we are mandated in this part of California to not use lead, I use nothing but Barnes and keep looking for less expensive alternatives. Now that some other mfg are starting to make lead-free bullets maybe the prices will start to come down. As far as Barnes "failures" I have seen no problems with Barnes since they came out with the TSX several years ago.

Depends on what you consider 'ideal' performance. In Northern Europe the Barnes open too slowly to be liked much. In southern and central europe barnes are regarded as hopeless becuase they do not blow up into fragments with a lung shot....

It is much easier to get the range of performance from a lead cored bullet than from a monolithic one...RWS off two mono's - one designed to fragment and the other to mushroom... but the mushrooming version is 'too hard' to compete with the evolution or Oryx bullets and the fragmenting version is too tough to compete with the Norma Plastic point.

In Africa...I like Barnes - but they don't work well in some rounds where capacity is limitied. I am aware that with the range of powders available in the USA you can compensate for most things but here with South African Powders, you will be hard pressed to get top performace with barnes out of a .458 Win or 9,3x62 - both rounds lack the case capacity to accomodate the longer bullets.

Unless we are all taking action to get democrats out of office in this next election all ammunition will be illegal with in 10 years. No matter how you change it they will pass laws to make it either illegal or simply so expensive that only the politically powerful and the very rich will be able to shoot at all.

The writing is on the wall in California and as California goes so goes the rest of the country eventually