Off topic question: Is there a gun shop or gunsmithing company in RSA called Truvello?

Click to visit Truvelo barrell and rifle specialists!

Quote:

"If they use a New Custom Designed and Turned Bekker Solid that looks exactly like four other "new" designs, thoroughly tested with a sample of three, you insist that they would, so why ask me?" .... Gerard

Reply:

The custom bullet was turned for me by a hobbiest bullet maker on a CNC-machine. He also makes Solids for Magnum Arms (various calbers) who export some of these bullets. So, Bekker did not turn it.

The design is exclusively the brainchild of the owner of the firm and not mine. Again I am just a user of a fine bullet with proven excellent field results. These bullets have been tested by many other users, including the owner and all his other friends. So I can assure you the testing stretches far far beyond the three that I fired into a wetpack that you use as justification to bolster your weak argument.

Your comments are way off the wall, as most of your other silly comments that characterize you. Comments like these just make you a bigger asshole every time when you post. Perhaps in your own mind you think you can score points and influence readers this way - needless to say you have the cat by the wrong tail.



Chris Bekker

Chris,
We will keep it simple as you suggested and remain with just the one subject
.

quote:

The SF value of the .375/300 gr Rhino Solid is 2.10 at 2,000 fps going up almost by an insignificant fraction to 2.13 at 3,000 fps. At 2300/2400 fps the value is 2.11, which does not fit your criteria of the magical in "EXCESS of 2.5".

Your number of 2.1 SF is wrong but be that as it may, tell me this: What is the stagnation pressure at 2000fps and at 3000fps? (This is a Clue, remember my first clue? You should be able to work it out from there Einstein.)

I am still waiting for the SF of the other bullets you mentioned and, while you are at it, measure and redo the 300gr Rhino bullet, you got it wrong. You have the bullets and you have the software, it is not that difficult but the correct answer probably does not fit your TSS (Three Step Swindle).

quote:

The custom bullet was turned for me by a hobbiest bullet maker on a CNC-machine. He also makes Solids for Magnum Arms (various calbers) who export some of these bullets. So, Bekker did not turn it.

This is stating the obvious, just the thought of you running something as expensive as a CNC lathe, with the mechanical abilities and logic you have demonstrated, is spine chilling. The potential for disaster is enormous.

Alf,

I am surprised!

quote:

But now comes the contradiction!

" I have shot some game with them and seen a lot of game shot with them and never a failure and mostly always got a very large exit hole, thats good...'

The part about the big exit holes on the GS custom HV's ?

How can this be.

No contradiction, just logic.

Low speed, low cavity volume, large exit hole.


High speed, larger cavity volume, large exit hole or small exit hole, depending on depth of tissue penetrated.

The exit hole below was after 15 inches of soft tissue penetration in the lower neck of an elk.

This hole was left after 20" of penetration including 7" of heavy bone. Considering that the bullet used here is a 7mm HV, the exit hole is still substantially larger than calibre. How is this explained?


Mention is made of bullets tumbling or changing direction in the final part of the wound channel and being recovered base forward. I do not think any significance can be attached to this. It is the luck of the draw. The bullet has run out of steam and the retarding forces have overcome the ability of the bullet to traverse the medium effectively. To avoid such occurrences, use a bullet that will blow through with power to spare.

.

Alf,
No misunderstanding and I do not know why we seem to differ on this subject. Ray does not use a 7mm STW that I am aware of, and his reference to large exit holes remains logical. If he hits an eland or whatever at 100m with a 458 Lott or 404, the HV bullet will likely have close to 100% retention and the result will be a large exit hole. No mystery, as you just explained it adequately above.

You must remember that all HVs do not lose the petals when used in all calibres. Some calibre/bullet weight combinations are not capable of the speed required to best utilise the cylinder shape for internal, damage as your STW can. There is little point in an HV bullet that sheds the petals at 2000fps and continues as a cylinder at that low speed. As Pieter and Chris have pointed out ad nauseam, the result of a cylinder at 1700fps is merely a small hole all the way through. In these calibres, weight retention is paramount and, coupled to the extra speed that HV and FN bullets can be pushed to, without exceeding pressure limits, work mostly as normal bullets do, albeit at elevated momentum and energy levels.

Quote:

"So how does SF as a numeric entity exactly play in the penetration equation? is it of any consequence at all and if so what is the relative contribution." .... Alf

Reply:

Alf,

Gerard runs around this question that has been asked repeatedly.
When I listed 4 factors as a start, he responded that they were not complete.
I have asked him to add to them, but to no avail.
He still has not explained Mc Pherson's view on the issue.
He tries to pick on other things, as always, to side-track the real issues.

Gerard,

You have, after how many postings now, still not made your position clear. Unfortunately we cannot proceed, unless you attempt to answer the following basic underlying questions:

1) How does the stagnation pressure influence the stability of a bullet inside an animal?

2) How does SF, as a numerical factor, influence straight-line penetration?

3) How did you arrive at a SF value in excess of 2.5?

Once we have your position on the above, you can explain to the readers on AR why the .375/300 gr & .416/400 gr Rhino brass solids are so successful on buffalo and elephant. The onus is on you to prove that the empirical evidence need to be rejected in favour of your theory. More particularly then, the following .... (to assist you)

Katte Katzke has been using the .416/400 gr Rhino bullets in the main - both their Softs and Solids. As a PH he is using a combination of 1 Soft/3 Solids in the magazine for buffalo when he is guiding. Let us now look at the all important SF value according to Gerard - it is only 1.35, even lower than the .375/300 gr bullet. The SF stays at 1.35 over the velocity range of 2,000 fps to 2,400 fps. Katte has been using this bullet extensively with great success on elephant and buffalo. The question is now .... how come the .416/400 gr solid works so well, despite having a low SF value? Is Katte perhaps another misguided soul, Gerard? I positvely reject your theory as having any practical value.

We know by now that Katte was not happy with your 380 gr HP bullets - of the 3 shot into the buffalo's stomach one went through whilst the other 2 could not; they all behaved like solids, i.e. they do not open up as intended. Blaming the velocity as too low again !!! (your website claims that they open so reliably when all other mono-metals fail to open) And you have not been making them since 1998, and you now replaced them with 330 gr HV's @ a recommended velocity of 2,700 fps (wow). No demand for the superseded HP's? Anyway, in 2 weeks time we will have the results when he returns with his hunting deputation, and let the penny falls where it wants to be.

The jury is out for a while ...
Chris Bekker

Originally posted by Gerard:
Chris,

CHRIS: The custom bullet was turned for me by a hobbiest bullet maker on a CNC-machine. He also makes Solids for Magnum Arms (various calbers) who export some of these bullets. So, Bekker did not turn it.

GERARD: This is stating the obvious, just the thought of you running something as expensive as a CNC lathe, with the mechanical abilities and logic you have demonstrated, is spine chilling. The potential for disaster is enormous.

MY REPLY TO YOUR SILLY ANSWER:

Thanks for the compliments that you are dishing out so generously. I guess once you are cornered then your notorious personal attacks start ... you are true to form! The point of importance here is that you always jump to conclusions, and more often than not, it results in you looking like an asshole. Let us first settle your Rasputin logic about stabilization before going on to lathe turning.

Chris Bekker

If you want to see the custom turned bullet that I am refering to, as posted on the June 10 th, 2005 at 21:10 on page 2 of "ONGOING DISCUSSION - 380 gr RHINO" it is the 3 rd bullet on the right - 286 gr bronze solid (SG = 8.78) with a medium sized (4.4 mm) flat meplat ... It works like a charm and the the SF has a "low" value of only 1.76 at 2,300 fps dropping down marginally to 1.71 at 1,700 fps.

I like the angle of the crimping groove in particular, as it is so easy on the neck of the case and it sort of clicks in just nicely behind a 90 degree stop of the groove - the best I groove I have ever seen.

Chris Bekker

Chris,
Why are you going to such lengths to avoid answering the questions asked? All the smoke and diversions and pointless questions in the four posts above confirms you are painted into a corner again. You even selectively and dishonestly misquote me in the post above this one. (Those numbers pertain to the .375 HV and FN bullets particularly and you keep on "forgetting" that fact.)

For clarity, we cannot move to your diversions until we have settled these. You said keep it simple so let us do so.

quote:

Chris,
We will keep it simple as you suggested and remain with just the one subject.

quote:

The SF value of the .375/300 gr Rhino Solid is 2.10 at 2,000 fps going up almost by an insignificant fraction to 2.13 at 3,000 fps. At 2300/2400 fps the value is 2.11, which does not fit your criteria of the magical in "EXCESS of 2.5

Your number of 2.1 SF is wrong but be that as it may, tell me this: What is the stagnation pressure at 2000fps and at 3000fps? (This is a Clue, remember my first clue? You should be able to work it out from there Einstein.)

I am still waiting for the SF of the other bullets you mentioned and, while you are at it, measure and redo the 300gr Rhino bullet, you got it wrong. You have the bullets and you have the software, it is not that difficult but the correct answer probably does not fit your TSS (Three Step Swindle).

As an aside, I just noticed this statement in one of your earlier posts:

"In addition with its wide flat faced front the overturning moment should be better than anything within a 1,000 sea miles."

You do not really know what "overturning moment" is, do you?

Gerard,

I have not mis-quoted you ... please read properly ... I will mark the operative section for you in bold and also put on your glasses:

This is what I said:

"If you cannot do it, then you should tell us the significance of the 2.5 value, but preferable in excess of 2.5 for FN's or different values for each caliber as you see it, incorporting the the jam pressure differentials."

Just answer the question as well as the others, which I will repeat here for ease of reference:

1) How does the stagnation pressure influence the stability of a bullet inside an animal?

2) How does SF, as a numerical factor, influence straight-line penetration?

3) How did you arrive at a SF value in excess of 2.5?

An opinion does not have to be a final one in life. I have changed a few of my opinions over the last 30 or so years - it is not a crime. You live and you learn.

I put it to you again ... consider Katte Katzke's extensive experience with the 416 Rigby, using the 400 gr Rhino Solid with reliable success ... and that with a low SF-value of only 1.35 !!!! If you really feel strong about it, then engage Katte on the forum.

Gerard I grant you the right to differ with me, but unfortunately we cannot proceed if you do not explain your views and nor can you attract a following.

Just on the overturning momement ... if you are fishing for a compliment ... considering the almost in the middle COG of your not overly long bullet, aided by its large flat meplat, you have in deed achieved the lowest overturnig moment in a bullet. Please accept my congratulations for that. I trust I do not have to go to further lengths to have to explain it to you or to solicit scientific assistance to explain it in a way that is suitable at Masters level in mechanical engineering. (My brother is a mechanical engineer by the way)

I think I need a vacation from this topic, so please answer the above questions so we can bury this topic, without making personal snarling remarks ... let us keep it for fun and the enhancement of ballistic thought.

Chris Bekker

Alf,

Since the WinGyro program was written to calculate the stability of a bullet in air, based on a specific parameter for air density, it seems obvious that it could not readily be applied to stable flight in flesh.

Have you perhaps seen anything in ballistic literature how one can cross the bridge and apply it to flesh ? And that is not even addressing the role of where the COG point is positioned in a bullet and nor its nose configuration. As the last two parameters can differ so widely in the various makes and different designs in bullet shape, are we not perhaps dabbling in the dark?

It seems we have already eliminated the possible effect of stagnation pressure, when a bullet impacts an animal, on the stability of the bullet, as having no practical value whatsoever. And as such, Gerard's explanation of having a SF-Value in excess of 2.5 for a 375 H&H due to its higher stagnation pressure than a 9.3 x 62 mm for instance, with FN bullets, can be positively discarded.

Chris Bekker

Chris,
Go to my last post on page 9 (third from the bottom) and do the highlight thing with the five bullets listed at the bottom of the post. This will reveal the approximate SF numbers for the bullets involved. Based on those numbers, it occurs to me that, as bullet manufacturers, we agree on something: Non deforming solids require a higher SF than softs which deform on impact. You have not figured that out and that is truly very basic.

It is clear that high stability factors are favoured by these other manufacturers whose products you endorse so heavily. Yet you criticise GSC and myself for giving the same advice and hold up your amateur effort at designing as an example. You do not have a grip on the concept of stagnation pressure, you do not know how to properly calculate stability factors and "overturning moment" is a mystery to you, yet you are trying to criticise me on those subjects. You ask questions that no one on earth has a solid mathematical answer for and expect me to come up with the answers you have concocted in your mind. You are indeed a ballistic buffoon. I recently saw your article on ballistic coefficient and the poking in the dark it contains. You must ask them to pull it off the site and then rewrite it (if you can) before someone else picks up on it.

quote:

Just on the overturning momement ... if you are fishing for a compliment ...

I said: "You do not really know what "overturning moment" is, do you?" You misconstrue that as fishing for a compliment????!!!

quote:

considering the almost in the middle COG of your not overly long bullet, aided by its large flat meplat, you have in deed achieved the lowest overturnig moment in a bullet. Please accept my congratulations for that.

Regrettably I cannot in good conscience accept your congratulations because your theory is completely wrong. A single calibre round nose solid COG is further towards the physical centre than a typical FN bullet. Ask your brother to explain it to you again, slowly, with drawings, and take notes.

quote:

(My brother is a mechanical engineer by the way)

My brother was an electrical engineer but that does not qualify me as proficient with volts, watts and amps. Anything over 12v is high tension as far as I am concerned and I stay away from it. (Did your brother tell you that a spinning bar will pull a drill to its centre?)

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
Chris,

You ask questions that no one on earth has a solid mathematical answer for and expect me to come up with the answers you have concocted in your mind.

Ok, so you do not have any mathematical calculations. Also, you do not have field experience to validate the SF-value in EXCESS of 2.5 - just an unmotivated guestimate, right? You could not explain the the relationship between stagnation pressure and SF-values that you initially tendered as an explanation. Nor could you give us the break-points for various calibers on SF values that you hinted will be different. You also did not motivate your answer how calculated SF-values for air stability relates to stability in flesh. You also ignored the empirical evidence that a 1.35 SF value with a .416/400 gr Rhino Solid gives straight-line penetration, right?

Now you admit that nobody in the world can do these calculations, but then comes the sting (poison from your tail) ... I have concocted the questions that are unplesant for you. OK, I understand Gerard.



I now close this discussion.
Cheers
Chris Bekker

Chris,

quote:

Ok, so you do not have any mathematical calculations.

You asked the question: "What is the relative contribution of each of the following items to stabilization inside the animal:

1. Centre of Gravity (more to the back or more centre) point
2. Nose configuration (FN, RN, SP)
3. Twist rate (Fast, medium or slow) or rotational speed
4. Forward speed"

I do not have the calculations to give you the answer, no one has. If you are too stupid uninformed to realise that these values will shift, dependent on a multitude of factors, the label of "ballistic buffoon" fits better and better.

quote:

Also, you do not have field experience to validate the SF-value in EXCESS of 2.5 - just an unmotivated guestimate, right?

Wrong, and quite a joke. Did you miss these items from previous posts in this thread and from our website?

"Oh wow! A sample of three!! My sample of 1200 plus and climbing, carries more weight. You lose."
"You are going to have to convince this man as well as hundreds of others that, what they saw with their own eyes, did not happen."
"It is easier to follow a design direction, interspersed with the dreadfully tedious task of hunting field testing. One soon sees whether the chosen direction is producing an improving situation or a worsening situation. It is then much easier to find reasons to try and explain what was observed. Without doubt, the wrong explanations are sometimes dragged out but it does not change the observed result."
"At least I can say that I base my wildly biased opinion (according to you), on having hunted and experimented with just about every conceivable brand and type of bullet available."
"I also help reloaders with load development and not just with our bullets, we handle all makes. There are very few bullets I have not personally used on game, like Bridger, Ferrobul and KJG. Don't kid yourself about us being ignorant about your products."
"For someone like me with forty years worth of input that said "good mushroom, maximum weight retention" it was impossible to figure out. The results were indisputable though, and the HV concept was born."
"This balance of factors is extremely difficult to calculate and is mostly found through experimentation in the field. GS Custom has the benefit of having had access to the development of this practical knowledge on the subject since 1985."
"This was the first time that the entire group with us on a bullet test hunt used GS Custom bullets."
"The twin ladies of GS Custom have been hunting with a pair of 220 Swift rifles since 1998." (They have only just started, but they probably have more ballistic savvy than you already. At least we know that they are better shots than you are, as they are fully capable of taking their animals anywhere from point blank to over 300m.)

quote:

You could not explain the the relationship between stagnation pressure and SF-values that you initially tendered as an explanation.

After telling you I am done educating you, I added: "Go have a look at those tables that are generated in WinGyro and check out that SF wobble around 1200fps. (I am feeling generous - This is a Clue!)" And you ignored it because you are as thick as two bricks and entirely unable to make the connection to stability during the transitioning of the bullet from one medium to another.

quote:

Nor could you give us the break-points for various calibers on SF values that you hinted will be different.

In your dreams. Some things are not divulged to competitors like you. What planet are you from again? (Do you expect me to hand you more than a decade of intense experimentation on a plate?)

quote:

You also did not motivate your answer how calculated SF-values for air stability relates to stability in flesh.

"Therefore some bullets are good with less SF than 2.5 (like the 9.3x62) and some actually need more." And that advice is based on burning more primers than you have seen in your life, let alone shoot. With your demonstrated animosity towards GSC, why do expect anything more?

As I have said, I am done educating you so, for fun, I will concentrate on your mistakes:

quote:

You also ignored the empirical evidence that a 1.35 SF value with a .416/400 gr Rhino Solid gives straight-line penetration, right?

1.35 SF?? Download another copy of WinGyro. Yours is not working or you do not know how to run it. Probably the latter as you have demonstrated difficulty with following simple guidelines.

quote:

Now you admit that nobody in the world can do these calculations

Except maybe you and Morrie. The fact that you pose such questions point directly to the level of ignorance of the questioner. There are those who know, there are those who do not know and then there are those who do not know that they do not know. Sadly you are in the last group.

quote:

I now close this discussion.
Cheers
Chris Bekker

How many times have you gladdened us with a similar statement? Alas, we have learned that you will be back. I will put money on it. Maybe not here on this thread, but you will crawl out of the woodwork somewhere.

.

At the risk of a slight deviation from the 380 grain Rhino, does anyone have some good reloading info with VihtaVuori powders and the 350 grain Rhino?

Alf,
You could comfortably add 250fps to your load without sacrificing significant accuracy. It will add much to the versatility of your 9.3 especially reach and resistance to wind drift.

Wink,
Start load would be 65gr of N150. Maximum speed would be around 2350fps in a 24" barrel.

.

Gerard,

If you want me back, I will oblige and continue till I go on pension and that won't be soon ...

Gerard: And you ignored it because you are as thick as two bricks ...

CB: Could it be that you are as thick as those 'dolosse' (huge concrete blocks) in the PE sea?

Gerard: In your dreams. Some things are not divulged to competitors like you. What planet are you from again?

CB: I am not a competitor, nor do I need your Rasputin explanations or fiction on SF values and mis-interpretations about stagnation pressure. You can entertain yourself with your so called discoveries. How far did you progress with your accusation that Rhino Bullets infringed your copy right?

Gerard: With your demonstrated animosity towards GSC, why do expect anything more?

CB: Your demonstrated animosity towards me, Rhino Bullets and many others have been demonstrated coutless times. You are your own worst enemy and have done more to harm yourself than anybody else. Your debacle with Gregor Woods is just one such example of how you made an enemy of yourself.

Gerard: Download another copy of WinGyro. Yours is not working or you do not know how to run it. Probably the latter as you have demonstrated difficulty with following simple guidelines.

CB: Only you know how to run it ... the Guru Supreme !!! How come a 9,3/270 gr FN bullet is still stable at 1,700 fps, going straight through a Blue Wildebeest? I simply do not buy your skewed deductions and interpretations. Why don't you take Katte Katzke on and tell him he should not use 400 gr Rhino solids on buffalo, as they are not stable enough since the SF value is way too low according to your armchair experience of straigh-line penetration on buffalo? We await his tests with your HV bullets on buffalo.

Chris Bekker

Chris,
How about addressing the technical matters I touched on instead of the infantile reply above?

quote:

and entirely unable to make the connection to stability during the transitioning of the bullet from one medium to another.

As you ignore this CLUE for the third time, I take it that you have no idea what I am referring to.

quote:

nor do I need your Rasputin explanations or fiction on SF values and mis-interpretations about stagnation pressure. You can entertain yourself with your so called discoveries.

Other manufacturers agree with GSC on these matters but you don't. What makes you think that you know better than the tech people at Barnes, Bitterroot, Northfork, Garret, GSC and a slew of others? Until a couple of weeks ago you did not know what stagnation pressure is (probably still do not have a grip on it), you are murky on how stability of the bullet affects flight and transition from one state to another and you think I discovered these things because you have never given them any thought. You are unwilling to learn and as long as you fail to be open to other points of view, you will remain ignorant. You will not live long enough to learn it all on your own. Maybe you should go and discover another new specie like the brindled gemsbuck you found a while back. Here is an idea: Why not try to establish the habitat of the Jackalope featured on America's Funniest Home Videos?

quote:

How far did you progress with your accusation that Rhino Bullets infringed your copy right?

You inability to be accurate is the only consistent factor about you. I did not accuse them of infringement and your implication that I did is typical of how you drag others into your technically flawed discussions. You exist to stir mud and sling it.

quote:

Your demonstrated animosity towards me, Rhino Bullets and many others have been demonstrated coutless times.

I have no animosity towards any other bullet manufacturer, least of all Rhino. In fact on two occasions on this thread alone I have assisted people with load data for Rhino bullets. Where were you when they asked their questions? You were too busy slinging mud, that is where. Animosity towards you - you started it five years ago and I was civil about your ignorance for a long time till I realised that you are technically incapable of accuracy and unable to learn. The only way I am prepared to deal with you is to reveal your mistakes when they involve GSC products. Talk rubbish about any other product and I will be silent. You may have noticed (probably not) that I only react, never instigate.

quote:

Your debacle with Gregor Woods

Exists only in your mind and is a prime example of how you will continually drag others into your mudslinging when you lose a debate through ignorance. This is as much a habit of yours as the Three Step Swindle.

quote:

Only you know how to run it

I know how to run WinGyro as do thousands of others. It is not at all difficult to do. How come you are having difficulty with it? CLUE: (It requires a meticulous attitude towards setting the parameters, which you have shown you are not capable of.) Brush up on sweating the details and you will do better with it.

quote:

How come a 9,3/270 gr FN bullet is still stable at 1,700 fps, going straight through a Blue Wildebeest?

Because it is designed to do so, based on the SF, impact speed, meplat size, nose angle, COG and some others. But clearly you do not understand these concepts and how they interact.

quote:

I simply do not buy your skewed deductions and interpretations.

I do not care what you think. Your mistake with the COG of our FN bullets is something like number 39 in a line of technical errors you have made. When your mistakes are pointed out, you simply ignore it and drag someone else into the issue as a smokescreen. I really do not care what you think.

quote:

Why don't you take Katte Katzke on and tell him he should not use 400 gr Rhino solids on buffalo, as they are not stable enough since the SF value is way too low

You are insisting that the SF is too low not me. You take him on. Learn how to use the tools at your disposal (like WinGyro), brush up on technical accuracy and maybe you have a chance of convincing someone of your hare brained ideas. Your habit of dragging others into your flawed arguments when you start losing is becoming tedious.

quote:

We await his tests with your HV bullets on buffalo.

He is also having a look at the FN and some other makes. Unlike you, he approaches new things with an open mind. That is why he is chairman of the BBASA and you are just a member.

quote:

I am not a competitor

Oh yes you are. By your own (and others) admission you are associated with another manufacturer. You do not have to be on a payroll to be associated with a business. As an accountant (?) you should know that. So you can stop rolling out the "I do not get a cent from them" excuse.

quote:

I now close this discussion.
Cheers
Chris Bekker

I lost a bet on this. I said it would be three days.

Gerard,

"You are murky on how stability of the bullet affects flight and transition from one state to another and you think I discovered these things because you have never given them any thought."

You accuse me that I do not understand stability, but you are in fact murky in your thoughts with your SF 2.5 value in excess of 2.5, and you never even attempted to discuss my questions on the subject of stability other than creating your usual cloud of smoke.


"Why not try to establish the habitat of the Jackalope featured on America's Funniest Home Videos?"

You are not even funny, Gerard - why don't you feature as a Ass running around biting and kicking the mares? When you veer off the topic like this, as we have come to know your notorious tactics, it only shows the futility to engage with you on the real issues.

I shall not even respond to all the other crap that you have dished up, and how you try to wiggle yourself out of the slanderous comments against Rhino Bullets.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion and I'm entitled to ignore Gerard Schultz's opinion.

Chris Bekker

Gerard,

quote:

That is why he is chairman of the BBASA and you are just a member.

Just to give it back to you Gerard ... you always try to nit-pick on non-issues and non-events, here is one for you ... what is BBASA? I do not know of a BBASA, I only know about a BASA.

Katte Katzke, just like me, prefers CEBs like Rhino Softs. We will indeed get a good comparison of bullet performance (GS bullets, Stewart, Rhino and Dzombo.)

Gerard,

You do not have to go into calculations and divulge your 'secrets' - just simply answer the questions in English or Kantonese - I have a Chinese friend that could translate for me. You will be doing the fraternity a great favour if you could guide us poor mortals.

1) How does the stagnation pressure influence the stability of a bullet inside an animal?

2) How does SF, as a numerical factor, influence straight-line penetration?

3) How did you arrive at a SF value in EXCESS of 2.5?

Are you deaf or blind , Gerard?

Chris Bekker

Gerard,
Thanks for the load indications for the 350 grain Rhino.

CB post 4 September 2005 10:50:

quote:

It seems we have already eliminated the possible effect of stagnation pressure, when a bullet impacts an animal, on the stability of the bullet, as having no practical value whatsoever.

CB post 9 September 2005 13:55:

quote:

1) How does the stagnation pressure influence the stability of a bullet inside an animal?

Suffering from amnesia?

Rather spend your time fruitful and tell us more about each of the following:

quote:

It can be shown that a stable bullet has to fulfil three different conditions:

* it must be statically stable,
* it must be dynamically stable,
* it has to be tractable.

Springtrap,

It is not me who must explain this. Either you or Gerard can do that. I need to know how we relate all these conditions iro AIR stability to FLESH stability and the evidence to support your views.

Your explanation is welcomed, as it appears that you have the answer.

Thanks
Chris Bekker

Alf,

Getting a velocity of 2,468 fps with a 230 grainer is good enough for baby Dinosaurs, but if you are after trophy Dinosaurs you could do as Gerard suggests -

"You could comfortably add 250fps to your load without sacrificing significant accuracy. It will add much to the versatility of your 9.3 especially reach and resistance to wind drift."

When Gerard says 'comfortably' it means you could go much higher, till just before you cannot extract the bolt anymore (then use a hammer). As far as the 'reach' goes, you could now hunt these beasts up to 500 yards without worrying about sighting your bullet/load combination in. The 'wind drift' will surely be better (most compelling reason), as that enables you to hunt in hurricane conditions now.

So, 2,718 fps is cool, but may be 2,850 fps is quite feasible. But there may be a negative ... the bullet may lose all its petals instantly on striking the beast, and progress as a small cylider instead of going through the vitals with its petals intact and widespread. So, velocity is not necessarily the best for terminal effect.

I commented before on a HV bullet that I have seen - a 9,3/260 gr HV @ a MV of 2,500 fps, striking a Blue Wildebeest at 80 yards. It performed very well with intact petals, but the signs were clear ... do not go higher, as the petals are showing the signs that they will go if pushed further.

Chris Bekker

Chris,
This is classic Bekker. Below is a near perfect example of the Three Step Swindle. Check it out, one step at a time.

quote:

You accuse me that I do not understand stability

This is true, you do not. I have pointed this out to you on a number of occasions. (Chris said: "Why the hell do you make 260 grainers if I must use 230 grainers. By this skewed logic I guess if we go another 30 grains lower, a 200 grainer will be even better. Do we draw the line at a certain weight or at a certain velocity?" I replied: "It is actually a bullet length and barrel twist thing, you would not understand." And you have produced gems like this when on the subject of stability: "That is why I do not believe too shoot through grass, reeds or twigs with any kind of stabilization.")

quote:

but you are in fact murky in your thoughts with your SF 2.5 value in excess of 2.5,

Yet other manufacturers, that are endorsed enthusiastically by yourself, are also murky as they produce solids with SF values in line with our FNs. Based on that, murky thoughts, that include SF values higher than 2.5 must be good and GSC is in good company. Thanks for clearing up that one.

quote:

and you never even attempted to discuss my questions on the subject of stability

I did but you were so engrossed in riding off in four directions at once that you missed every one. In fact my previous post contains: " As you ignore this CLUE for the third time, I take it that you have no idea what I am referring to." Every time I attempt to educate you, you come up with remarks like this one above: "nor do I need your Rasputin explanations or fiction on SF values and mis-interpretations about stagnation pressure. You can entertain yourself with your so called discoveries."

There we go, another Three Step Swindle debunked.

I can only conclude that you ask these questions repeatedly just for the sake of arguing. You confirm this by stating: "I'm entitled to ignore Gerard Schultz's opinion."

So, as I have said, I am done educating you and, for fun, I will concentrate on your mistakes (and ugly habits):

quote:

I shall not even respond to all the other crap that you have dished up

What is the problem? Questions too dificult for you or is it that answering logically will further expose your ongoing line of blunders and mistakes?

quote:

I do not know of a BBASA, I only know about a BASA.

Hey, I hit the big B twice, shoot me!! Does not change the fact that he is Chairman and you are just a member with no authority. (The way you go around inviting guest speakers one would swear you are the big cheese.)

quote:

Katte Katzke, just like me, prefers CEBs like Rhino Softs.

I thought that he is so amazingly impressed with with the Dzombo and the Stewart. But of course, one's own product must get first mention.

quote:

1) How does the stagnation pressure influence the stability of a bullet inside an animal?

In the Solid Bullet Dynamics thread, Alf gave a very good explanation. Did you miss it or did you not follow what he was talking about? Given that you thought I discovered SP two weeks ago, it is probably the latter.

quote:

2) How does SF, as a numerical factor, influence straight-line penetration?

This question confirms your lack of practical experience. I was hoping you would figure it out but as you keep on asking it, I will use the opportunity to explain it to you again so you can stop asking. Some bullets, it is said, has not yet "gone - to - sleep" when they strike the target and they tumble - on - impact. This is because the stability - factor - is - too - low. Tumbling - on - impact can happen with any overly long - for - twist - bullet. Bullets with the co-rect sta-bi-li-ty fac-tor, do not exhibit these pro-blems. Those with moderate and extensive hunting experience will confirm this. It is probably unfair to have expected you to figure this out, as you lack the "attention to detail" mindset as well as the field experience. Pay attention and all will become clear after a number of years (in your case.)

quote:

3) How did you arrive at a SF value in EXCESS of 2.5?

Plug the right numbers into WinGyro and push "Enter".

quote:

Are you deaf or blind , Gerard?

As the questions you repeatedly ask have all been answered, some several times, I must ask: "Are you?"

quote:

Chris replies to SpringTrap:
Your explanation is welcomed, as it appears that you have the answer.

Yes we have, but do you? Your evasion is typical of when you try and buy time to run off and Google your way out of your ignorance. Sometimes (stagnation force) it backfires on you.

quote:

the bullet may lose all its petals instantly on striking the beast, and progress as a small cylider

And produce wound channels with exit wounds like this one, at ranges you could not possibly attempt with your fave bullets:

quote:

I commented before on a HV bullet that I have seen

Another sample of one.

How does it feel to have this gap in your field of (albeit limited) experience? You have never used HV bullets on game and everyone you talk to (Nols, Alf, Attie, RIP, Ray and a host of others on this forum) state their satisfaction with HVs. They get incredible accuracy with easy load development (almost regardless of powder type), one shot knockdowns are common, and they can reach out to distances that were previously not possible.

Your opinion is based on nothing but bluster and an inflated opinion of what you think you know. Your reply to Alf confirms your Position and Title of Ballistic Buffoon. You need not tell Alf how to use HVs, he knows.

PS.

quote:

striking a Blue Wildebeest at 80 yards

Are you sure it wasn't perhaps a Bushy Tailed Scimitar?

.

Alf, if you want a longer range bullet for the 9.3 x 62, then you should try out the Lutz Moeller bullets. Do a google search for Lutz Moeller and you will find his website. I have a 9.3 that shoots Moeller bullets 3 shots touching at 100 yards with more than 3000 fps velocity.

.

Alf,

Just send Herr Moeller an email, and he will quote you a price and ship them to you.

email: l.moeller@snafu.de

Gerard,

Your attempt to swindle yourself out of this discussion with your evasive and twisted answers are indeed hilarious. I will confine myself to the essence of the debate and not respond to your silly remarks:

1. You offered the higher stagnation pressure of a .375 bullet as the reason why we need a SF value in excess of 2.5, but that it could be far less for a 9,3 bullet. I rejected your view as you have still not explained your view in a convincing manner. Stagnation pressure (P = Density/2 x Velocity^2) has nothing to do with stable straight-line penetration in flesh. The softer flesh simply yields under pressure. Be it a slower bullet from a .375 Revolver (12-inch JDJ) or a .375 H&H ... or would the slower bullet not go straight? Penetration into the target will continue, as the dynamic pressure created by the bullet's velocity is much greater than the flow stress of the tissue.

You need to quote Alf for me where he supports your theory about stagnation pressure, I have not seen it. I did see him say this .... "But the stagnation zone has no effect on stability that is of any significance whatsoever." Alf did mention why he believes flat meplat bullets are more stable though, as the relationship between the longitudinal ( polar ) moment of inertia and the transverse moment of intertia of the projectile as well as the relationship between the CG and the point where the "jam pressure" is applied is more ideal.

2. You have not validated your claim of how SF as a numeric value, based on the density of air, affects straight-line penetration in flesh. Grabbing answers of SF values of other bullets in an attempt to prove that the SF value has to exceed a specific value is hardly scientific. You stated that a close 2.44 does not qualify as we need in EXCESS of 2.5 !!! This created the impression that you have some very precise experimental test data to support your theory.

Clearly you have nothing, other than just a wild guess. My question was .... how did you arrive at this value of 2.5 to which we still do not have a satisfactory answer. Would a bullet with a stability factor of more than 1.0 but less than 2.44 tumble on impact, because it has 'not gone to sleep' in a 375 H&H rifle? In your dreams buddy. The prove is everywhere around us, ask any PH that uses 300 gr Rhino brass solids on buffalo and elephant where extreme penetration is required.

3. Then just something on the performance of RN solids or rather FMJs. Harry Manners was an ivory hunter and used his 375 H&H his whole career when the better FN-designs were not available and he shot more than a thousand elephant. He and Wally Johnson began elephant hunting in partnership in Mozambique in 1937, and both used off-the-shelf Winchesters. They only used Kynoch 300-grain solids, and both averred that this rifle/cartridge combination was all that any professional ivory hunter ever needed (even though most of us will disagree). They were both expert shots and could place their bullets accurately from any angle for brain-shots on elephant, but both used shoulder shots when these were convenient, alleging that this was the largest and safest target. Harry shot The Monarch of Murrapa (185 and 183 pounds a side). When ivory hunting was stopped in Mozambique in the early 1950s in favour of safari hunting, Harry and Wally entered the safari field, both still only using their .375s.

4. The .375 JDJ is one of an entire family of wildcat cartridges developed by J.D. Jones of SSK Industries for Thompson/Center single shot pistol. Introduced in 1978, it is the .444 Marlin necked down for .375 caliber bullets. Of the many cartridges developed specifically for the Contender, none have come close to matching the track record of the .375 JDJ on the world's big game animals.

In the hands of various experienced hunters, this cartridge has accounted for all North American game, including deer, pronghorn, wild boar, black bear, elk, moose, and Alaskan Brown Bear. The .375 JDJ has also been used successfully on most African game, from leopard and lion to Cape Buffalo, elephant, and rhino. All of which serves to prove that in the hands of an experienced hunter, who carefully places the right bullet in the right spot at a relatively close range, a handgun cartridge with performance similar to that of the .375 Winchester in a rifle can accomplish a lot more than is commonly realized.

While some hunters have used the 300 grain bullet on game such as elephant and cape buffalo, the Hornady 270 grain spire point is probably credited with more .375 JDJ big game kills than all other bullets combined. Typically the 270 gr Hdy SP bullet is loaded between 1,750 and 1,900 fps for the longer 14-inch barrels (12-inch is more common) and lower for the heavier 300 gr solid bullets destined for the toughest. Please relate the lower stagnation pressure to a severly 'unstable' bullet for me !!!



Chris Bekker

Alf,

Point taken, if you want to turn your 9,3 x 62 mm into a one-option rifle. Point being that at range you would derive the benefit of a bullet that keeps its mushroom through lower impact velocity - that was really my point.

Chris Bekker

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Alf, if you want a longer range bullet for the 9.3 x 62, then you should try out the Lutz Moeller bullets. Do a google search for Lutz Moeller and you will find his website. I have a 9.3 that shoots Moeller bullets 3 shots touching at 100 yards with more than 3000 fps velocity.

500 Grains,

Dan, just out of curiosity ...

1. How do these Lutz Moller bullets perform on game?

2. As the LM bullet is a close copy of the GS-HV bullet, even though there are some differences, do they perform similarly as far as terminal effect is concerned?

Thanks
Chris Bekker

quote:

Originally posted by truvelloshooter:


1. How do these Lutz Moller bullets perform on game?

I have not shot an animal with them yet so as of this date I cannot comment. If you check the Lutz Moeller website, he has pictures of skinned carcasses of animals he shot with his bullets, but that is the only information that I have.

Chris,
Your reply confirms that you do not have a clue. There are so many mistakes and bad logic in there, that time only allows me to deal with your last sentence of that post.

quote:

Typically the 270 gr Hdy SP bullet is loaded between 1,750 and 1,900 fps for the longer 14-inch barrels (12-inch is more common) and lower for the heavier 300 gr solid bullets destined for the toughest. Please relate the lower stagnation pressure to a severly 'unstable' bullet for me !!!

So you are of the opinion that the Hornady 270gr Spire Point (catalog number 3710) is unstable when fired from a .375 barrel. With a stability factor that is in excess of 4.1, at any speed over 1200fps, it is more than double that of the Bekker Hobbyist Turned Solid 9.3 and half again the SF of the GSC 270gr FN. And then you ask how the lower stagnation pressure relates to the unstable bullet.


In one sentence you have made 4 mistakes:

You miscalculated the SF of the Hornady bullet. (WinGyro too complicated for you?)
You compare a soft with a solid. (Typical Bekker TSS)
You forget that the stability requirement for a soft is less than that of a solid. (Despite lectururing anyone who will listen about it like you discovered it.)
You have not figured out that stability requirement reduces as speed reduces. (Lack of practical experience.)

Who helped you, or did you Google in too much of a hurry again? It is difficult to believe one person can be so wrong all on his own. Come on, fess up. Someone is helping you!!

quote:

Point taken, if you want to turn your 9,3 x 62 mm into a one-option rifle.

Cannot let this one pass by without asking. Which bullet are we discussing here that enables one to use the 9.3 as a one option rifle?

quote:

Point being that at range you would derive the benefit of a bullet that keeps its mushroom through lower impact velocity - that was really my point.

You are very quiet about the close range performance in the pic I posted above. You know, the one where the HV (130gr 7mm with no Sd ) sheds the petals and blows a three inch exit hole after 15 inches of penetration. None so blind as those who do not want to see?

quote:

As the LM bullet is a close copy of the GS-HV bullet

In the shaft only. That is where any similarity stops. Could someone please translate this into English:

"Die Wildpretentwertung ist mit beiden Geschossen gering, allerdings scheint das GS-Custom doch besser ausgelegt zu sein und weiter aufzumachen. Die Totfluchten mit GS-HV waren geringer; 0,0,5,10 Meter gegenüber 10,20,30 Meter mit dem KJG."

quote:

And then you ask how the lower stagnation pressure relates to the unstable bullet.

Gerard,

Stagnation pressure has nothing to do with gyroscopic stability and does not feature in penetration formulas that I know of. Stagnation pressure (P = Density/2 x Velocity^2) goes up to the square of velocity and has nothing to do with stable straight-line penetration in flesh.

When Elephants are shot with the .375 JDJ, typically a brass solid is used, such as the 300 gr Barnes Solid. So recalculate the SF value. No one in his right mind will shoot elephant with a most frangible soft.

You were jumping to conclusions again when you said ... "You miscalculated the SF of the Hornady bullet. (WinGyro too complicated for you?" I did not calculate anything you clown.



Chris Bekker