----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. Kevin Robertson
To: Rhino Bullets
Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 10:50 AM
Subject: from Kevin Robertson

Hi Kobus,

Herewith the buff we shot and the recovered bullets, plus the tree which the first one went through. Retained weight was still 65 %.

Kevin

And your point is?

Hello JWP475,

The point is we are sharing info here on AR - good and bad. Rhino's have taken a beating by some, as some other bullets here on AR, and I guess it is good/fair to see the other side as well. So, that is the point - no more and no less.

Take care
warrior

I was wondering dont you have something more recent? It has been a year.

Ratmotor,

Indeed I have something more recent, like +- 6 weeks, and I will gladly oblige. Will publish it soon. I enjoy looking at retrieved bullets and it seems you like it too.

Have a nice day.
Warrior

The one thing i dont liek about Rhino and so does many other fellow hunters here in Norway is that all bullets has to go to the Swedish importer first, and the price gets turned up.

We liked Rhino bullets before because it was one of the best premium bullets at a price of a regular softnose bullet, but not any more, the prices has risen .

Many hunters seek other bullets instead of Rhino then , and thats unfortunate , since Rhino has a Bl.... good reputation up here for various hunting.


Now thats said, the 380 grs bullet is one many is waiting for and a friend of me wil buy some ready loaded cartridges soon to try in his rifle before he goes on a Safari next year.

quote:

We liked Rhino bullets before because it was one of the best premium bullets at a price of a regular softnose bullet, but not any more, the prices has risen .

Mr Rigby,

Premium bullets should actually demand a premium, so the custom bullet makers can also make a living, but middlemen in the marketing chain will also take their cut for their effort, whilst the manufacturer cannot handle the distribution so easily in a foreign country. I wish more people would support custom bullet makers that must make everything from their own means, without big companies behind them. Their initiative and innovation needs to be rewarded somehow, so paying a little more should not hurt too much.

In SA we face a much worse problem, where we have to pay R18 to R20 for an imported Swift A-Frame bullet, should we prefer to buy it. But then we are also lucky in that we can buy a Rhino bullet for between R8 and R10. These two bullets compete head-on as premium expanding bullets. I am glad though to see that you are happy with a South African product.

Take care.
Warrior

Warrior

Youre bullets are some of the best ones that has ever been allowed to be designed, produced, packed, exported and then bought by eager hunters and shooter over the entire world.

The price on Rhinos over here is almost the same price as the Trophy Bonded bullets, but Rhino is twice as good as TBBC (thats 100 dollar s in commercial fee please... )

Price is an thing we have to live with and i wish there wasan 275-300 grs .358 Rhino bullet for use up here in .358 NM.

I was alittle bit harsh yesterday, id had a bad day, sorry for that.

And i hope Michael wil lstart to make .450 NE cartridges also loaded with the bullets some day.


mr Rigby

Here is some more news on Rhino's new 340 grain bullets for the .375 caliber, being shorter than the 380 grainer. I believe both will be offered based on the hunters preference. I believe it is good development as it does away with the need to use duplex loads with SA powders. Here is the article that appeared in the Man Magnum of February 2007:

A Question: Are you still saying that you have no connection to Rhino Bullets?

Gerard,

Absolutely no connection. It just cannot penetrate your thick skull, as you have been told so many times. I use various bullets, talk to various people that sells bullets. I even bought some of your bullets - 230 gr HV's & 130 gr HV's. Does that mean I have a connection with you? The above article is in the puclic domain - published in Man Magnum. Does that mean I have a connection with them?

This got published only because you called for it - wanting to see more of my favourite bullet.

Favourite Soft: Rhino Solid Shank
Favourite Solid: My custom turned solid
Favourite expanding mono: Barnes TSX
Favourite plinking bullet: Hornady

Please take your tablets Gerard, your paranoia is running away with you.

Warrior

I was not referring to the article from Magnum, I was wondering about the fact that you publish copies of email that is sent to Rhino Bullets.

quote:

----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. Kevin Robertson
To: Rhino Bullets
Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2006 10:50 AM
Subject: from Kevin Robertson

Hi Kobus,

Was it forwarded to you then?

quote:

Favourite Soft: Rhino Solid Shank
Favourite Solid: My custom turned solid
Favourite expanding mono: Barnes TSX
Favourite plinking bullet: Hornady

Tell us, what animals have YOU shot with these favourite bullets. Show us some proof that you are not just stringing us along with all this talk.

Chris,

What rate of twist does Kobus recommend for the 380 gr Rhino?

500 Grains,

I do not know what Kobus's thoughts are on twists rates in general nor speciafically on the long for caliber (40 mm) 380 gr bullet.

However here is a piece from the pen of Doctari:

"A duplex load of 31.5 grains of both S 335 & S 365 propelled the 380 grainers at 2200 fps of muzzle velocity from the 26 inch long barrel of my Browning A-Bolt Medallion rifle. I found this load to be particularly accurate, with these longer than normal bullets stabilizing well in the Browning’s 1:12 twist rate barrel. One inch groups at 100 paces were common. My initial impression of the 380 grain Rhino’s performance on all the species shot, was one of amazement, particularly in the size of the permanent wound channels they created. I was also impressed with their penetration."

Mauritz Coetzee has many happy customers that buy 380 gr Rhino bullets from him - he has a stack of retrieved bullets from buffalo. The shortening of the bullet when it strikes assist stability as a matter of geometry rather than due to the gyro effect.


Warrior

Gerard,

I requested reports specifically on your behalf from Kobus, because you were curious to know more about my favourite bullets. Since I am not Rhino Bullets, I have to request reports. I only did it to please you.



Warrior

quote:

Posted by Chris Bekker 19 April 2005 00:54

I continually test a wide range of Rhino bullets and provide Kobus with feedback.
Happy hunting.
Chris Bekker

quote:

Posted by Chris Bekker 19 April 2005 17:1719 April 2005 17:17
----- Original Message -----
From: Kobus
To: Chris Bekker
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 1:31 PM

5. In the past Mr. Bekker have done a number of tests for me on a number of calibers. The facts are ... He tested:

.243 in 100 gr
7mm in 160 and 170 gr
.308 in 200 gr
.270 in 150 gr
.303 in 215 gr with Pieter Olivier
9.3 in 286 gr and 300 gr
.375 in 300 and 350 gr
404 Jeff in 400 gr with Hubert Saayman

This feedback is combined with tests done by other hunters to develop or improve my bullets. Mr. Bekker worked out a chart to determine the maximum length my bullets can be at a given weight. This chart has been very useful to me when designing new heavy weight bullets.

quote:

By Chris Bekker 01 June 2007 21:06

500 Grains,

I do not know what Kobus's thoughts are on twists rates in general nor speciafically on the long for caliber (40 mm) 380 gr bullet.

Testing of the above bullets and developing some loads in standard twist rates for the various calibers never necessitated a disccusion due to the bullets being too long to stabilize. I furnished Kobus with my opinion and that was that. None of his bullets fell outside my parameters. 500 Grains' question was actually directed at the .375/380gr that Mauritz Coetzee and Koos Barnard tested. Since I had nothing to do with it, it follows that I cannot know. Sounds logic hey?

However, I did furnish 500 Grains with a qualitative answer from non other than the well known Doctari. Guess that is good enough, and it addresses the question asked !!!

Gerard rather concern yourself with the issue, and not the other petty shit that is a non issue or non event. Typical behaviour.

Warrior

quote:

However here is a piece from the pen of Doctari:

"A duplex load of 31.5 grains of both S 335 & S 365 propelled the 380 grainers at 2200 fps of muzzle velocity from the 26 inch long barrel of my Browning A-Bolt Medallion rifle. I found this load to be particularly accurate, with these longer than normal bullets stabilizing well in the Browning’s 1:12 twist rate barrel. One inch groups at 100 paces were common. My initial impression of the 380 grain Rhino’s performance on all the species shot, was one of amazement, particularly in the size of the permanent wound channels they created. I was also impressed with their penetration."

The first 2 bullets are 350 gr RHINO bullets. One unfired and the other sectioned.
Then on the far right we have 380 gr RHINO bullet. unfired.
Unfortunately I no longer have another 380 grainer to section.
Both versions have the same length, but one is a Spitzer whereas the aother one a RN.
The 350 grainer is not drilled as deep and has less lead.




Warrior

What? Another example of batch-to-batch variation in the 350-grainers? One has a big groove near the base and the other doesn't. They are still tinkering with perfection, eh?
Or is the shallow groove on the base a "weight relief" trick to get the odd bullet closer to the nominal weight so as not to have to reject it from the lot? Hey, that would move the center of gravity slightly forward for terminal benefit too ...



I hear the GSC bullets are priced lower than the Rhino's in RSA ... and GSC bullets are much more accurate, whether shot in Northern or Southern Hemisphere.

RIP,

These two 350 grainers were experimental beta versions that I tested before being released to the public. Kobus obviously shot them first, and then he send me a couple to see how they would do in other rifles. They worked fine on the range. I was curious to check the construction out, and was amazed to see the very strong construction. Petals being tapered to the front still appeared a bit thick to me and we (my son and I) felt we needed to test this quickly on a pig as well, before giving feedback to Kobus.

Here is my son with the warthog and his .375 H&H. The bullet opened and left a huge exit wound; bleeding profusely to the outside. The final test is always on game.



Warrior

quote:

I hear the GSC bullets are priced lower than the Rhino's in RSA ... and GSC bullets are much more accurate, whether shot in Northern or Southern Hemisphere.

This is the truth. I pay almost R30.00 less for my GS custom bullets than what I paid for Rhino. The rhino prices have gone up as well and GS is the same as last year.

quote:

I hear the GSC bullets are priced lower than the Rhino's in RSA ... and GSC bullets are much more accurate, whether shot in Northern or Southern Hemisphere.

RIP,

I do not know, as I do not follow prices that closely, and when the one leap-frogs the other with price increases. I believe the price of copper has gone up. The most important thing is that customers come back and place repeat orders, and in this vain I came accross this piece from Leon Hensel's pen:-

Thanks once again for your excellent bullets. As per our frequent telephone conversations, I am loading your 160 grain Rhino in my 7x57mm Mauser. I have selected the following load; 43.0 grains S 355, Winchester Western Brass, CCI 200 Large Rifle Primers. The cases are full-length resized (the dies have been set so as to not alter the head-space of cases fired in my rifle), and the bullets seated with a 0.010†stand-off from the lands. Accuracy is absolutely phenomenal and the muzzle velocity is 2500fps.

I have, in the last week-end, used your bullets to cull 25 animals and in all cases the bullets performed wonderfully. 22 Impala were shot, with 3 head shots at ranges from 20 meters to 235 meters. With expansion and minimal meat loss (this is something I have never seen in 15 years of hunting). 3 Blue Wildebeeste were shot at ranges from 93 meters to 180 meters- heart/lung shots. The bullet smashed through both shoulders in one case, once again minimal meat damage considering the shot placement. All animals dropped to one shot! Presented shots were at various angles and the bullets penetrated the animals completely!! This is exactly the way I like my bullets to perform.

We are going to to be removing a further 30 Blue Wildebeeste and 50 Impala as well as 3 Kudu bulls from the property so I will keep you informed as to the performance of your excellent bullets.

Thanks for an awesome bullet Kobus!!!

Leon Hensel

Hey Warrior,
This report you came across is the same one you posted on the Benelli thread. You rhino guys know how to pad the hype by repeating the same stuff over and over and over hey. You even do it on your website.

Correct, as some may not read it there.
What bullets did you buy and what were the prices?

Warrior

Shees and then you point a finger at Gerard for subtle marketing. Your double standard is sticking out like a sore thumb. I bought 308 bullets off the GS custom website for R271.00 for fifty and that included post and vat. You know what the lower price is not a big deal but getting better accuracy and better results when hunting that is a big deal. That was a season after I paid R300.00 for rhinos.

Rat Motor,

Let me be philosophical and say very seldom does a person buy one bullet and stay with it. Our very nature is to experiment by trying new things (bullets) and when we found something that works well we invariably stick with it. So I am glad if you found that spot of nirvana, but that is sometimes all in the mind and the Dailai Lama will confirm this.

Warrior

You are right if I bought GS the first time I would have stopped there but I had to work my way through the lies to get there. If it was only me I would say maybe it is an isolated case but two of my buddies had the same experience. We were at the range late last year and a guy showed us a rhino that he recovered and it was not expanded at all. Sometimes it is easier to make good advertising than a good product. We see this in the motor trade often.

RIP,

As I have said, I do not track prices, but I have recently bought 7mm/130 gr GSC-HV's for R395 per box from a gun shop. The 150 gr Rhino bullet retails at R258 per box of 50 on current stocks, but I do believe there is a price increase to come shortly that will probably push it to around R300. That is still R95 cheaper per box. Who told you about the pricing?

Perhaps your info relates to some other caliber bullet. To get a better view one will have to pick some popular bullet weights per caliber in each brand and compare them. This may be important to some, but even if the one is R95 bucks more expensive than the other one, I do not believe it will swing the buyer who makes his decision mostly on criteria of performance and availability.

I would love to try some Northforks, but they are not available here. Or when you walk into a shop and your favourite bullet is not available then you switch - that was the case here with Barnes-X bullets for a 2 year period before a new agency could be sorted out with Formalito, who is willing to import in large quantities. We have only in the last few months been able to get Swift A-Frame bullets through a gun shop as they signed an agency agreement.

In summary then:

7mm/160 gr Swift A-Frame: .... R725 per 50 = R14.50/bullet (only one available)
7mm/130 gr GSC-HV's: ........... R395 per 50 = R7.90/bullet
7mm/150 gr Rhino: ................ R258 per 50 = R5.16/bullet (VLT price)
7mm/150 gr Rhino: ................ R300 per 50 = R6.00/bullet (new suggested retail price)

Rat Motor's price comparison also seems highly suspect, in the light of the above.
Be it as it may, it is not an issue for me either way.
The accuracy issue is very much a hunter/shooter related issue, and as such I cannot really make a comment.

Warrior

Chris/Warrior/Truvelloshooter,
The lies never stop, do they? This is the same lie you told five years ago when you "compared" GSC prices to Rhino prices. Since when does Rhino make a drive band bullet? If you compare prices then it should be for the GSC HP, a smooth, standard velocity expanding bullet as is the Rhino. How about comparing the GSC FN bullets to the Rhino solids? The GSC FN is made from copper which is more expensive than the brass from which Rhino solids are made. So if GSC FNs are a tad more expensive, it would be understandable. Fact is that, across the range, both GSC HP and FN solids retail at lower prices than the Rhinos. Your new suggested retail price for Rhino does not include shipping so the price is more than you state. Your dishonesty and agenda of slander against GSC features again and nothing you say can be trusted.

To your list you should ad:

7mm/160 gr Swift A-Frame: .... R725 per 50 = R14.50/bullet (only one available)
7mm/130 gr GSC-HV's: ........... R395 per 50 = R7.90/bullet
7mm/150 gr Rhino: ................ R258 per 50 = R5.16/bullet (VLT price)
7mm/150 gr Rhino: ................ R300 per 50 = R6.00/bullet (new suggested retail price)Shipping not included
7mm/140g gr GSC HP:................R274 per 50 = R5.48/bullet
7mm/150g gr GSC HP:................R285 per 50 = R5.70/bullet

There is nothing wrong with Rat Motor's prices, you are the liar and the one who continually deceives. You are a despicable individual.

quote:

Be it as it may, it is not an issue for me either way.

Gerard,

Read the above again. I do not care if you are 100% cheaper, be it for the HP or HV. Rat Motor did not scpecify what bullet. It is reasonable to assume he would be buying the better bullet as a reloading connoiseur with his high standards, rather than a bullet that falls short of the very innovative features of your HV bullet. So, there is no lie as you try to make out - THE PRICE COMPARISSON WAS ACTUALLY BETWEEN 2 SHOPS AT WHAT THEY RETAIL. Phone VLT yourself for Rhino prices and Maca Arms for HV prices..

But if you can read, you would have noticed that it is not an issue for me. Totally irrelevant. The only important thing is that customers come back for more. Please relax, even I bought some of your bullets, and they may feature somewhere again in an article or even right here on AR.

The slander thing is getting boring now, price differences will allways persist. But is you believe it is so important that you can swing the world with your HP prices then good luck to you. Once you have shaven with a twin-blade razor, why go back to a single blade - I guess it is the same way for someone going back from a HV to a HP (degenerative back-sliding). The price thing is total nonsense, but your friend RIP brought it up as an important issue that your bullet is cheaper, and if it is, then it is great. If Rhino is 50% or 100% more expensive and people come back to buy more, then I guess that is also great. And there will be people buying Swift A-Frame bullets at even higher prices - that is how it is.



Warrior

Chris/Warrior/Truvelloshooter,
You are right, this is not about pricing, it is about the continuous lies you come up with. You paid R395.00 for 50 130gr 7mm HV bullets and Rat Motor says he paid R271.00 for 50 308 bullets and you think they are HV bullets? Even the excuses you make are lies.

quote:

7mm/160 gr Swift A-Frame: .... R725 per 50 = R14.50/bullet (only one available)
7mm/130 gr GSC-HV's: ........... R395 per 50 = R7.90/bullet
7mm/150 gr Rhino: ................ R258 per 50 = R5.16/bullet (VLT price)

Gerard,

The comparison above is fact - not a lie. Two retail stores selling the above bullets, as stated.
I have nothing to do with bullets Rat Motor bought.
I compared retail HV prices of what I bought with Rhino bullets at Retail. Simple, hey?
I have not once mentioned your HP bullet in the price comparison. See above - put glasses on.
Your paranioa is unmistakable and makes you blind.

Cheers
Warrior

Chris/Warrior/Truvelloshooter,

quote:

Rat Motor's price comparison also seems highly suspect,

quote:

I have nothing to do with bullets Rat Motor bought.

Even the excuses you make are lies.

quote:

Perhaps your info relates to some other caliber bullet

Gerard,

In my post to RIP I dis say ... "Perhaps your info relates to some other caliber bullet".

I concerned myself with the 7 mm HV that I bought and compared it to a Rhino, right?
So there is no problem, no lie and no excuse.
Only in your mind there is a bee ... the proverbial bee in a bonnet.

Regarding the HP bullet:

If your own pricing is anything to go by, then the HP is the lesser bullet.
Guess you get what you pay for.
Why are you selling Rat Motor down instead of up?
The HV is much better and Rat Motor has very high standards.



Warrior

Chris/Warrior/Truvelloshooter,
You asked Rat Motor:

quote:

What bullets did you buy and what were the prices?

He replied:

quote:

I bought 308 bullets off the GS custom website for R271.00 for fifty and that included post and vat.

Then you say to RIP:

quote:

Perhaps your info relates to some other caliber bullet. Rat Motor's price comparison also seems highly suspect,

You must think everyone is stupid enough to believe this excuse.

quote:

I concerned myself with the 7 mm HV that I bought and compared it to a Rhino, right?

You have said yourself that the two are not comparable. You labled the HV a long range only bullet (incorrectly) and the Rhinos a short range bullet. Our HP range is a standard medium range hunting bullet as is the Rhino - the logical basis for comparison. However, you dishonestly compare the most expensive product we make to the Rhinos and ignore the HP and FN ranges which are generally lower in price. We all know why - it does not suit the AGENDA.

quote:

Regarding the HP bullet: Guess you get what you pay for. Why are you selling Rat Motor down instead of up?

Many customers still use the HP range. It suits their needs at a good price. You should ask Andre at Maca (he is the owner of the gun shop and also a PH) about the HP range of bullets. Rat Motor, like most customers, buys what suits his needs. You have a very misguided idea about how a business works. You are an accountant you say? Don't seem to have a grip on reality if you ask me. Anyway, going by this, Rat Motor seems happy:

quote:

You know what the lower price is not a big deal but getting better accuracy and better results when hunting that is a big deal.

Even the excuses you make are lies.

I think that this discussion has got so far out of hand that company reputations are being harmed by the constant abuse written on this thread. I don't know about the other AR members but it is saddening to think that the normally informative AR forums have been turned into something very embarrassing by this discussion. It puzzles me how two very well known companys have flung a lot of rubbish at each other. Gerard I have dealt with you in the past and used to great success some of your HV's in my 220 swift. Regarding the rhino bullets I was about to order some 380gr items to try in my 375HH.
I just wanted to say that I have found both companys a pleasure and a wealth of knowledge to deal with. It just saddens me that what I regard such an amazing wealth of knowledge here on the AR forum to be tarnished by what has now turned into childish bickering.
I'll certainly think twice before ordering any GSC or Rhino bullets from here on in.

fordnutter,
I don't think you have the big picture here, and you have not followed the metamorphoses of ChrisPecker/Truveloshitter/warrior since the slanderous beginnings of his history here.

What is a shame is that Gerard has to waste his time debunking the troll's BS here.

I am sick of it myself. Warrior is now on ignore.

Your reference to being hesitant to deal with either Rhino or GSC because of A-Troll-Named-Warrior's mudpies soiling the guest room here is nonsensical.

RIP,

You made pricing an issue, not me. You were strirring the pot. So you can keep your mouth shut and give meaning to the word IGNORE.

Let us get back to bullet performance (good & bad), what this thread is all about.

Warrior

Fordnutter,

Rhino Bullets published the following notice on their website with regard to exporting their product to the USA:

IMPORTANT U.S.A.

RHINO PRODUCTS INTO THE U.S.A. MARKET.

It is with regret that we have to inform our American customers that Bill Isenbarger won't be selling Rhino bullets anymore.

The reasons for this are:

Bill's import permit has expired.

Since 9/11 we have been unable to find a shipping company in South Africa or America That are willing to transport any firearm components to the States. Bill had to use Lufthansa Airways at R48.00 per kg. to transport our bullets to the States. This extra cost made the whole venture economically unviable
N.B. To all my customers emailing me requesting that I send small parcels through the post, please note:

This is illegal: I will be breaking a minor law in South Africa but you will be breaking a Federal Law in the States. I have checked this with the F.B.I. To import ammunition or parts of ammunition one has to have a permit. The South African Customs have told me that if I do not correctly name/describe the parcels, for instance calling them (turned part – hunting equipment – sports equipment), they will confiscate the bullets. The F.B.I. said they would not only confiscate, but prosecute anyone bringing in any ammunition or part of ammunition without the required permits.

As soon as we find a willing transport company we will resume exporting to the states, provided that import permits are in place.