i have been told many stories of the 458WIN MAG being under powered,bad penetration etc due to powder clumping etc and that is why i was thinking the LOTT was the way to go. However i met another Zim PH and his Client recently(who is GUN NUT to be polite) and they both told me that the stories of the 458WIN MAG being under powered, powder clumping,bad penetration etc is all a thing of the past. Can anyone please tell me their opinions on this.

I have seen some dismal results on game from the 458Win. But saying that, I'm having one built at the moment but I also have a plan when it comes to ammo.
If I lived in Africa with dubious supplies of ammo then I would go for the Lott.

My light and handy M98 458Win loaded with 480grn Woodleighs at a MV of 2150fps to match the 450NE.

When it first came out, the 458 Winchester Magnum did have a bad reputation for being under powder and inconsistent and I think those problems have been solved at least with factory ammunition. That said, I don't know why anyone would buy a new 458 Winchester Magnum when you can have a 458 Lott for about the same money; at least in the USA.

In the same gun of the same weight, no reason not to chamber for the Lott as you can shoot 458 WM in it. The only difference is a bit of throat length. Whoopy do.

But, you can make a 7.5 lb. .458 WM and about the best you can do is a nearly 9 lb. Lott.

Nothing wrong with the .458 WM. You'll see no difference between it and all these much revered nitro express cartridges, like the .470 NE and the .450 NE.

I own the CZ 550 American Safari 458 Lott. Weight is about 10.5 LB thats with scope and sling. It fits right into my shoulder. Standing
and shooting There's hardly any recoil. But on the bench there is 74 ft lb of recoil. I use sand bags little ones and that takes the recoil away. You know for sighting in. I love my lott.

I take it from your name that you are a guide in Zimbabwe. That means that you will carry your rifle a lot and shoot it very little but when you do it will be a very serious situation. Consequently, if in your shoes I would go with as light a rifle as possible. In most cases the 458 Win will be lighter than any Lott. If you can get fresh factory ammo such as the new Hornady with DGS bullets, I would go that way. Look for a mauser actioned 458, FN or Browning Safari and they will way around 7.5 to 8 lbs. Also check the back issues of African Hunter Magazine for an article I authored entitled "The 458 Winchester is Back". It will give you a good idea of what to expect from the current crop of 458 Win factory ammo.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by zimguide:
Thank you for all the info above, to maybe narrow down the info being given. I do not reload so will be relying on factory ammo at all times. I am held by a budget of a absolute MAX of $1800. I am a Guide in Zimbabwe, so yes the weapon will be carried a lot and used little,and when i does get used it will be at something BIG AFRICAN AND ANGRY (i do religiously put at a couple down the pipe monthly to keep on the ball)

How many times are you going to beat this dog? Or is it horse? You are as bad as us Americanos about waffling on a rifle and cartridge!!

I only see one advantage of the Lott over the 458 Win. With the Lott you can use the 550 grain Woodleigh solids. The 458 Win just doesn't have the capacity to launch that bullet at meaningful velocity.

465H&H

quote:

But, you can make a 7.5 lb. .458 WM and about the best you can do is a nearly 9 lb. Lott.

Why can't you make a Lott as light as a 458 WinMag?

Read Phil Shoemaker's (AKA "458Win" on the AR forum) article in Rifle Magazine entitled, "The 458 Lott: Who Cares!" After extensively testing both rounds, Phil determines that the Lott has very little more actual performance than the Win with modern factory and handloads. Phil has carried a mauser action 458 Win daily for many years as his backup gun against Brown/Grizzly bears in Alaska. Perhaps he could chime in here, but this issues has been rehashed here so many times that it is getting rather old.

old poorly stored winmag ammo is still present ,,, and i keep hearing of bang/pop in the winmag, from kevin robertsons own mouth

with all respect to phil, "who cares" is actually on the winmag ... anything you can do with a winmag you can do with a lott, including shooting factory ammo...

no offense, though some might take it, if you can't make a 0.300" longer round go much faster or much lower pressure, then you are trying to slant the results.

btw, the right answer is 500gr tsx at 2200 at lowest possible pressure ..

the lott wins, hands down.

i do recall one KNUCKLEHEAD posting winmag loads that matched the lott ... yep, and if you used the same oal, they might even be safe ... 3.6+" in the winmag ... or, (drumroll) its a 458lott with less neck tension holding the bullets

seriously, guys, difference is not 300hh vs 300 win... its 300hh vs 300 weatherby .. and only a fool would believe the results of a 300 hh going all around better

quote:

old poorly stored winmag ammo is still present ,,, and i keep hearing of bang/pop in the winmag, from kevin robertsons own mouth

As long as were on the who cares bandwagon!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

old poorly stored winmag ammo is still present ,,, and i keep hearing of bang/pop in the winmag, from kevin robertsons own mouth

As long as were on the who cares bandwagon!

Bill, i reckon kevin's sold more books than you

and shot more game than any 10 of use..

though probably not so many wallets... so who cares?

g, bill, one needs to choose one's voice of authorities .... and norma evn thinks a bit of him

besides, he's nearly as tall as me and a heck of a nice guy to chat with

The Lott is the solution to a problem which does not exist. With equal bullets, equal pressures, and equal degrees of compression--but with a LOT more powder and recoil--you can get from 50 to 70 fps more velocity with a Lott than the .458WM.

It is no trick to get 2200 fps with 500 grain bullets with a .458WM.

All the Lott buys you is more air penetrated on the other side of the buffalo.

Indy,
I assume from your postings here that you have a winmag and have reloaded extensively, but have not done the same for the lott. Loading for a buddy doesn't count. Please correct me if i am wrong in that, and outline your parallel experiences reloading the lott for maximum performance, rather than comparing your loading of the winmag with the published data on the lott.

with respect, i entirely disagree with you. the winmag, through the 80s, was still running subspec and then poorly stored ammo ... resulting in jack lott getting tossed.

if one can't get at least 150 fps with a .300 longer cartridge, then you are doing something wrong ... 308 vs 3006 for example

it does NOT, repeat NOT require "alot" more powder to get 2300 vs 2150 ... in most powders, comparing the SAME powder its 3-4% and sometimes a WHOOPING 5% .. and only going cross powders, fastest in the winmag, slowest in the lott, can you make a fictious arguement about "alot" more powder.

same powder/same compression/ same pressure .. now, that's a hard triple threat to get around .. as you are either playing oal games, or then going to grant the lott AT LEAST 150 fps velocity, or its just a red herring.

"no trick to get 2200"... which is why there's ZERO legally liable loads published taking a 500gr bullet 2200fps .. there's ONE on ammoguide .. the over 2300 is obviously a lott load that was entered wrong..

that ONE listed is also listed as an absolute MAX load ..

only damn fools routinely load at dead out max .... its STILL a bomb, next to your face, and a possible weak primer and then gas/bits into your eye.

frankly, all the lott buys you is ammo that WILL go over 2200, from the factory, every time, and you can fire all those super duper winmag loads in the same chamber ... and don't bother trying to play the "but you'll loose velocity" .. i have DONE IT .. and you loose less than 50 fps .. and you winmag proponents demand that 50fps doesn't matter ... and that, dear friends, is being hoisted upon your own.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

old poorly stored winmag ammo is still present ,,, and i keep hearing of bang/pop in the winmag, from kevin robertsons own mouth

As long as were on the who cares bandwagon!

Bill, i reckon kevin's sold more books than you

and shot more game than any 10 of use..

though probably not so many wallets... so who cares?

g, bill, one needs to choose one's voice of authorities .... and norma evn thinks a bit of him

besides, he's nearly as tall as me and a heck of a nice guy to chat with

Grrrrr ........

I could grind this axe again but being the super swell non-confrontational sweetheart that I am, I leave this dog lie!

458 Win. Mag.
A friend of mine shot an elk with a 300 Win. Mag. and lost it. I shoot a 300 Wby. so its better. WTF

wasn't one of the original pluses for the Lott lower operating pressures compared to the win mag? has this issue become moot with modern powders?

no ..
the ackley/watts versions (close enough) were only yo be the biggest and baddest in the HH case.

Jack Lott got tossed due to, he claimed, a POP of a winmag with some of that "famously available" african ammo .. and the buff got him .. he revisted the winmag, has he had no issue with the pressure, and got 2300 with the 500gr bullet .. stated more, actually, but when saami'ed, it came in at 2300

the "with modern powders" is a red herring .. can the winmag actualyl now MAKE its stated book? usually.. with fresh ammo and good loads ... can the lott do more with the same? absolutely...

no one in their right mind would say "oh, with modern powders the 308 can beat the 30-06 ORIGINAL loadings" .. it can't .. there's NO replacement for displacement.

besides, Olin (who makes winchester brass) 2 years ago STOPPED MAKING THE BRASS as anything but a special order item.

that may have changed, but today, in the US, the 2 leading makers of big bores that also include either of these 458s, CZ and Ruger, only make the lott .. Winchester is going to make it again .. and remington USED to import the 458winmag ..

cz- lott
ruger - lott
empire - lott
remington via zavasta - 458 win
winchester - NO ENTRY FOR 5 YEARS

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Indy,
...Deleted

with respect, i entirely disagree with you. the winmag, through the 80s, was still running subspec and then poorly stored ammo ... resulting in jack lott getting tossed.

Deleted...

That is BS. Jack Lott got tossed when he gut shot a buff, not because of a poor or squib load.

ZimGuide,

If you find a suitable 458wm, buy it, but use ammo you know know, Federal, Hornaday, loaded for you to known specs... The ammo will perform well, you will be fine. Remember, Richard Heland, Ron Thomson, Barry Duckworth, Paul Grobler all used the 458wm. Between them, with the 458wm and Winchester factory ammo, they killed something like 20,000 elephants in the tetse corridor days.

I'm having brain cramps today and can't get a handle on the names of four or five PH's you would probeblu know who use the 458wm with ecellent results. I'll provide their names when the fog clears. One's name has popped through the fog - Butch Coaton, he is Roger Whittall's son-in-law. Geez, too much beer this last homiday weekend.

On the other hand, if you find a suitable 458 Lott, buy it, its ammo will perform well as long as you know the source and the bullet - there are credible reports (Don Heath amongst others) of 458 Lott ammo showing up in Zim with what appears to be solid bullets loaded that disintegrate.

JPK

which part, jpk?
that poorly stored 458 winamg ammom resulted in the WIDELY reported erractic velocities .. for that, you'll need to track down Don Heath and kevin Robertson for misreporting ..

( i don't discount that the first shot may have been in the guts.. though the aleged CHARGE, well, its hard to hit guts, and only guts, from the front)
or that I too might be having a brain cramp and mis-remembered what JACK reported as the series of events? I think Jack was probably experienced enough to know that a cannon in the guts wouldn't have stopped the dagga

it seems that there's any number of references to jack being tossed when using a 458 winmag .. and HE ascribing it to be the cartridge ..

You see, jack reported he wanted more than a 458 winmag .. http://www.norma.cc/content.as...0PH&Title=458%20Lott

quote:

Jack was tossed by a wounded buff after his shot failed to stop the old boy and he contributed that to the anemic factory load.

http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?m=201001

quote:

Lott had the unpleasant experience of having a .458 Winchester Magnum fail to stop a charging Cape buffalo. This life threatening encounter prompted him to design a replacement round based off of a .375 H&H Magnum case

quote:

The story goes that African hunter Jack Lott became disgusted with the 458 Winchester after a bad experience that got him in trouble with an ill-tempered Cape buffalo.

and we have your story that he was tossed by a gutshot buff, as the entire story .. yours might be right .. i kinda prefer the other...

oh, and have a nice day

quote:

ehat may have changed, but today, in the US, the 2 leading makers of big bores that also include either of these 458s, CZ and Ruger, only make the lott .. Winchester is going to make it again .. and remington USED to import the 458winmag ..

I could give a rats ass what the bean counting teenager computer geeks at some manufacturer has decided. My bet is they wouldn't know a 458 WM from a fireplug.

Just to show that they do not know of what they speak there is no need for a Lott. There is no real difference between a 458 Wm and a Lott, as indicated by Taylor's KO values and my experience on eles.

Please, no preaching about what a manufacturer may have decided as some sort of gospel, or worse yet, what some glory hound gun writer says in the latest "do something stupid if you want, but get it done by the publication due date" gun rag.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
which part, jpk?
that poorly stored 458 winamg ammom resulted in the WIDELY reported erractic velocities .. for that, you'll need to track down Don Heath and kevin Robertson for misreporting ..

( i don't discount that the first shot may have been in the guts.. though the aleged CHARGE, well, its hard to hit guts, and only guts, from the front)
or that I too might be having a brain cramp and mis-remembered what JACK reported as the series of events? I think Jack was probably experienced enough to know that a cannon in the guts wouldn't have stopped the dagga

it seems that there's any number of references to jack being tossed when using a 458 winmag .. and HE ascribing it to be the cartridge ..

You see, jack reported he wanted more than a 458 winmag .. http://www.norma.cc/content.as...0PH&Title=458%20Lott

quote:

Jack was tossed by a wounded buff after his shot failed to stop the old boy and he contributed that to the anemic factory load.

http://cheaperthandirt.com/blog/?m=201001

quote:

Lott had the unpleasant experience of having a .458 Winchester Magnum fail to stop a charging Cape buffalo. This life threatening encounter prompted him to design a replacement round based off of a .375 H&H Magnum case

quote:

The story goes that African hunter Jack Lott became disgusted with the 458 Winchester after a bad experience that got him in trouble with an ill-tempered Cape buffalo.

and we have your story that he was tossed by a gutshot buff, as the entire story .. yours might be right .. i kinda prefer the other...

oh, and have a nice day

Jeff,
Just about every "writer" has done their version of what happened regarding the Jack Lott incident.
If you read Jack's own account on what happened you'll find that he openly admits to his gut shooting the buff.
Also, if you read Jack's account, you will see that the .458 Win was not the only rifle which failed to stop that buff. Wally Johnson put severeal very close range "finishers" into that same animal from a .375 H&H, none of which had any immediate effect.

5-70
thanks for the reply ... i didn't know that it was a zillion shooter .. i doubt a 577 NE would have made a difference .

though *I* still think the lott is superior to the winmag .. though i have both, and even my own 458 ar too ..

If you live in Africa and will ultimately rely on what ammo/components you can get here and also rely on the gun to save your skin then get a Lott.

Sure there are guys who still carry Win Mags but there is no doubt that the Lott has its advantages and if you have a choice then it is the way to go.

But the 450 Watts is so much better than the Lott. With the watts you can shoot all 3 in the same gun and get a whole lot more velocity than te 458win and the lott.



just kidding I dont want to get you guys all stirred up any more than you already are.

But, remember, if it is worth killing it is worth overkilling

No you cannot chamber a lott in a watts

I asked this question recently and the conclusion I came to was a 450 ackley; which can shoot the watts, lott, and standard winchester magnum - at least that was what I was told and read.

So, assuming this still stands, got with the 450 ackley.

There all good 2150 500 grains picture perfect but why stray away from whats easy to get no pain in getting the peices

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
No you cannot chamber a lott in a watts

yes, you can, without a doubt, chamber and fire a lott in either the watts or ackley, but not the other way around... i have done BOTH in the same day

From my knowledge way back when it was out and all the rage it was always said lott and watts not interchangeible

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
5-70
thanks for the reply ... i didn't know that it was a zillion shooter .. i doubt a 577 NE would have made a difference .

though *I* still think the lott is superior to the winmag .. though i have both, and even my own 458 ar too ..

As is so often the case with you, wrong, but never in doubt.

Try a little f--king reading before spouting off, eh. Better yet, try some hunting.

JPK

Ill say it like this unless a die hard winnie fan anbd haveing a rifle built or going factory go lott if you come across a really nice 2nd hand gun that fits you well in winchester magnum get it a 458 cal hole is a 458 cal hole

I have both as well. My WM is in a Browning Safari grade and my Lott is in a CZ 550 which holds 6 rounds.
From a handling perspective the Browning is heads and tails above the CZ. I have had a AHR type enhancement to the CZ and trimmed the barrel to 23" and am loading to about 2225 FPS (500 grains).
With my limited loading experience and between these two guns, I would take the 458WM in the Browning package.
Here again, I am talking the "package".
BTW; You need to add some weight to the Browning 458 option @ 8 lbs it has stiff recoil with full house (2150 FPS) loads

EZ

Can a standard M98 action be made to suit the 458Lott with out problems?

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Can a standard M98 action be made to suit the 458Lott with out problems?

This action has been used for 375 H&H Magnum, 404 Jeffery, and 505 Jeffery for around 100 years so no reason why a “competent Mauser gunsmith “ couldn’t make the 458 Lott work without issue. Keep things at CIP/SAAMI 375 H&H pressure levels and the M98 action should last a few lifetimes.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
5-70
thanks for the reply ... i didn't know that it was a zillion shooter .. i doubt a 577 NE would have made a difference .

though *I* still think the lott is superior to the winmag .. though i have both, and even my own 458 ar too ..

As is so often the case with you, wrong, but never in doubt.

Try a little f--king reading before spouting off, eh. Better yet, try some hunting.

JPK

Nice .. love you too, johnny.

In equal rifles is there really anyone who would buy a 458 Winchester over a 458 Lott. I can't see a single reason why.

With modern powders, the win is just fine. Actually, as twenty or thirty thousand + dead elephants and countless dead buffalo undoubtedly prove, there are no flies on a win mag. This is 2010, not 1965.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
With modern powders, the win is just fine. Actually, as twenty or thirty thousand + dead elephants and countless dead buffalo undoubtedly prove, there are no flies on a win mag. This is 2010, not 1965.

Jet,
Ever own a lott? with a lott, you can shoot those "wonderful" winmag loads, too .. and loose about 50fps max ..

best of both words, right?

and with the same techniques that make a winamg MAKE BOOK, what can you do with a lott?


sorry, guys, tired of this old saw, the only difference in these cases is OAL .. and ANYONE can do more with MORE