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Alot about recoil, i am curious as to why i dont read much about magnaporting or puting a muzzle brake on the 458 Lott? | |||
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That's easy Tanoose!  The most hated thing on a rifle, in Africa is a muzzle brake, of any discription. If you think about it, Africa is the only place that justifies a rifle with enough recoil that a recoil reducer could concievably be needed. In Africa you could go to fifty camps , and I doubt you will find a Muzzle brake in more than five of them, and IMO, most of those would be on the rifles of first time Safari hunters, that had only hunted deer before they went to Africa, and most of the rifles would be thier first big bore! The popularity of the muzzel brake was started in the deer camps of the USA, by the so-called invention called the "BOSS". The BOSS system does absolutely nothing but increase the noise the reaches the ears of the shooter, and more so those standing to their sides. The false impression of workability of the BOSS system, has spread to the Bush in Africa, but only, as I said, by the first timers. Their next time in the bush, usually finds them with a rifle they can shoot, without gadgits! If you want to see something, just watch the look on your PH's face when you pull a rifle out of the case with a muzzel brake fitted to it's muzzle, his look says it all!!  No rifle will kill you from recoil, and if it has more than you want, then you need a less recoiling rifle. Most of the rifles you hear so much about the recoil are rifles that are designed for a very limited group of folks who can handle them, and some that are not practical for anyone to handle. The average client can handle the 375 H&H bolt rifle, quite well, and it is legal for dangerous game in Africa, and is all that is required to have a very successful hunt in Africa. With a little practice, and Southern whitetail hunter can learn to use a 416 REM, or 458 Win, and these are better yet, but still do not need a recoil modification feature. The PH will have a big rifle if you are hunting something that is very large, and bites, but you can bet he will not have a Brake on it! Practice is what seasons you to handle the recoil of any rifle, not gadgits! No flame, just trying to answer your question, and the above is the answer you'll get in most circles of African hunters!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Thanks Mac i was just curious , and your right about the boss i had one on a browning BAR safari in 338 win. mag. with a 24" barrel and after cutting that down to 18" without reinstalling the boss, i hadn't noticed any gain in recoil. Sold that rifle to my nephew, although it never jammed i always had the fear it might when i needed it the most. | |||
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I shot a nice buffalo 2 years ago with a heavy load Lott [built by Ray Atkinson by the way] and had a tooth ache for two weeks. It is one thing to shoot these cannons in practice and entirely another in combat. My next buffalo will be with a 416 Rigby. I do think the Lott is much more tolerable if you keep velocity around 2150. I think that is plenty of horsepower and gets you around that 5000 foot pounds of energy that has worked for a hundred years. | |||
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The really sad part about this is, a properly designed "recoil reducer brake" could also act as a silencer. However, any reduction of noise in a muzzle brake, in the United States, makes it a 'silencer' requiring a class three license, which, since 9/11, are quickly like Dodo birds, becoming extinct. Some enterprising South African, or European, could design a brake/silencer, screw on model, and rent them in SA, and Africa, saving both ears, and shoulders. Cest tres domage. IIRC my high school french...  G | |||
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YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!!! BUFFALO, and elephant, now have kevlar skin coating, that require at LEAST a .50 BMG to penetrate. You simply CANNOT KILL THEM, with anything less then 500 grains, at 2300 fps.  Seriously, the difference between 2150 @ 38k, and 2300+ at 63k, has to be a LOTT of snappy recoil..    GS | |||
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Just expand the neck of a 416 rem to .458, trim to 2.80 inches (just .005 or so back)and run it through your Lott die. If you don't trim or resize this case it is the 450 Ackley which has a bit more punch but won't safely shoot the Win Mag ammo. | |||
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i killed buffalos and cebues in a daily basis ,i have several 375hyhs and 458s but i love the 458lott im trying to buy one its more and more common here in argentina where the populations of bovines buffalos and wild cebues are increasing,besides since my childhood im reading jacks articles in guns and ammo soldier of fortune and others the articles i lost were sent by nickkudu to me.SO I BELIEVE ITS A GREAT CALIBER. www.huntinginargentina.com.ar FULL PROFESSIONAL MEMBER OF IPHA INTERNATIONAL PROFESSIONAL HUNTERS ASOCIATION . DSC PROFESSIONAL MEMBER DRSS--SCI NRA IDPA IPSC-FAT -argentine shooting federation cred number2- | |||
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Mac, I am sure your right, loading it modestly would make it a better rifle for most of us... I always shot mine with a 500 gr. bullet at 2350 FPS, and it hurt me off the bench, got a half moon shooting a buff under a limb and my blood trail was longer than the buffs! Hurt my shoulder on a prone shot shooting upwards in the high grass because thats the only way I could see the chest...but I got the bull.. It sure did kill them, in fact just like my 416 and 404 come to think of it.... I could live with a loaded down 458 Lott, why didn't I think of that, guess old habits are hard to break, push the string and all that rot! Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Slowly the truth leaks out!!! Ray, you'd mentioned that certain positions can cause problems (bending over, shooting through brush, shooting prone). I discovered the tendency to creep up the stock when I bent over to shoot my .340 wby through a chronograph one day -- amazing how much blood comes out of a tiny head cut (blood trail -- good one! )But weren't YOU the one who has been advocating the advantages of the Lott come from reduced pressures at .458 win performance rather than just packing the thing full of powder?? Dan | |||
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I am interested in helping you with that growing Water Buff situation down there!..Please get back with me and maybe we can do a hunt for several of these Bovines...with BIG handguns too!
"That's not a knife..THIS is a KNIFE" ! | |||
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Yes,the 458 rules! | |||
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after that you will have to do a 404-240 wby aka 404 capstick aka 4240 wby for the same 400@ 2150  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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if i could have only one big bore, certainlyt he lott would be it... at 2200 fps with a 500 gr premium bullet it has minimal recoil lower pressure than a 458 win mag feeds very well, if done properly can be feed a very trim diet of rel 7 and, frankly, if one trains with it, the recoil becomes a minor issue... unless it is a ruger #1 !!! Then again, I am building a 10,75x68, too, to have an ultralight hog rifle in a decent cliber opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Lordy, thats an old thread! 2005.... Well, I still believe I am right with a light gun for all over hunting, but I do not think I would need a bigger one as a PH. But if I did, a .458 Lott loaded with jeffeosso's recipe would be my choise. Anything larger would be a danger both to myself and my client. Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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Just wondering.. what kind of speed can you get out of a 400grain bullet from the Lott? Is 2600fps possible? | |||
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Hello, Have Ruger RSM in 458 Lott and rifle weighs just a bit more than 10 lbs. and weight combined with well designed stock, recoil is indeed stiff with stout loads, but not unbearable at all. Shoot almost all the time off hand with big bore rifles, 375HH and 416Rigby, and have not developed any of the dreaded flinch issues we hear about. Practice a lot(no pun intended!) with Remington's bulk 405 bullets and accuracy with that bullet is quite remarkable!! I have been a real fan of the 375HH for more than 40 years now, but that Lott round is really a great round to shoot and load for and very flexible for the shooter in terms of power he wants to load up to or down to, his preference. Tough to beat as all around big bore cartridge. So is Ruger RSM and have witnessed those shooting other brands of rifles really complaining about the recoil issue. Believe stock is major reason for such complaints. Good luck with outstanding cartridge!! | |||
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I'm taking a Ruger RSM in .458 Lott to Australia next month for water buffalo; I agree with driver - I've practiced a lot, and with the Ruger stock, the recoil is easily managed. Also, at 50 yards, I getting "one ragged hole" groups with Speer & Hornady softs & solids (shooting both in the same groups). I also agree with some of the others when they say they would choose the Lott, if they could have only one big bore. ____________________________ .470 & 9.3X74R Chapuis' Tikka O/U 9.3X74R Searcy Classics 450/.400 3" & .577 C&H .375 2 1/2" Krieghoff .500 NE Member Dallas Safari Club | |||
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I'm planning to have my CZ 550 Safari Classic in 375 H&H rebored to 470 Capstick. It should weigh about 9.75 lbs with a 22" barrel, without scope, about 10.5 lbs with scope. I expect the recoil to be invigorating but not punishing. We'll know this winter... I expect the balance to be better also. My 375's a bit muzzle heavy. Regards, Chuck Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Howdy, Recoil exceeded what I could handle - sold the 458 Lott rifle. I can handle the 416 Rem Mag and with 400 grain TSX's or solids I should be fine in the event I ever go back to Africa for a Jumbo. I must admit, I enjoyed handling the 458 rifle and day dreaming. Adios | |||
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Ray, when I built my first handloads I worked up to 2350fps MV also. I decided to reduce the load to a comfortable 2235fps MV. My load is 75.5grs H-335 with a 500gr Hornady. That produces 72 ft-lbs recoil in my CZ-550. Heck, I could use slightly less powder and still get 2200fps, and that's all you need. More velocity is not necessary. | |||
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WELL SAID!!!If I could only use one rifle for everything from ground squirrels to elk & grizzly, it would be the .30-06. If I could only use one rifle for everything from deer to buffalo, I'd take the .375 H&H. If I could only use one rifle for everything from elk to elephant, it's the .458 Lott, no doubt about it. Comparatively cheap brass, great bullet selection and overall versatility, including a great power range and flat trajectory. When properly loaded(The .460 Wby is under rated in the versatility department too) for the task at hand it doesn't get much better. The .458 Lott is not just a short range stopping rifle like many people think. The 350 gr Barnes TSX @ about 2750 fps is a no hold over load out to 300+ yds and is good for anything in the USA or Africa up to buffalo. A good 500 gr solid will shoot lengthwise through a big buff and reliably exit an elephants skull. Plus you've got the capability of using .458 Win loads. There are multiple ways you can own a GOOD .458 Lott for under $1000 too. Buying or building a .458 Lott is the least expensive way to own and shoot a TRUE stopping rifle. It's versatility is only icing on a very sweet cake.  My list of rifles that I want and plan to get is pretty long but I could live happily with my.....Ruger 10/22,223 Mini 14,.270 WSM mod.70,Rem 7600 .30-06, Rem 700 XCR .375 H&H, Marlin 1895 CB .45-70, Ruger No.1 ss/lam .458 Lott(Each rifle has it's own personal "backup" handgun too. That is a MUST for me). Thankfully I have others but these are my favorites. Even if I shrunk this rifle list down to three, the .458 Lott Ruger No.1 would remain. That's how much I like it! It may be the 1 rifle I never sell. | |||
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I think my lott is the greatest rifle ever made. It is the cz 550 American Safari 458 Lott. | |||
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The Lott is very managable in a rifle that stocked right for you and is of the right weight for the caliber. It'll take some gettin used to but you can do it. I am. " If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand which feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countryman " Samuel Adams, 1772 | |||
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Hi my CZ 550 will weigh about 9.75 lbs without scope, about 10.5 lbs with scope and rings. Is that a little on the light side or about right? Second question, barrel length I was thinking between 22" and 24" opinions? My CZ 550 375 H&H has the stock 25" barrel. Thanks, Chuck Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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The Lott is one of my favorite rounds. I don't load real low, as I have other rifles for that. My squirrel loads with a 405 still have bite, but are less than my rock busting full 500gr loads. When I shoot my Lott I want a "big bore" experience even it if is not at full tilt. I have a RSM in Lott (and owned a Lott #1), a RSM Rigby (owned a CZ in same) and 375s in CZ, Win M70s pre-64 and classic. For those that state the Lott at 500gr 2200+ are like a 375 but "a firmer push" you guys are tougher then me...and I claim to like recoil! The 375s are IMO the best shootable "bigger bores" there are. You need to control the rifles but IMO they won't bite you. They are fairly easy to shoot well. The Rigby is a step up to be sure. At moderate loadings I find it above a 375. Push a 416 above 2400fps 400gr and one starts to a new animal above the 375 H&H. 400grs at 2500+ gets you into a sharper and heavier recoil. With ANY bigger bore one needs a propperly set up rifle and propper mind set that you WILL master the rifle. Practice with good technique and it is all good. You must WANT to shoot the rifle well, even if it takes practice and determination! Okay, the Lott is a great round. Yes it WILL recoil heavily with top loads. The shooter must desire to master the round and rifle. It is satisfying for me to be able to deliver a Lott round on a small little ground squirrel and see the hydraulic effects. Some day in Africa I will hopefully be able to see my Lott in action on buff! I wish more people would acquire and shoot bigger rounds. Most folks cringe at the 375 when in reality their poorly set up 300 Win hurts them more then a well set up 375 would. John There are those that do, those that dream, and those that only read about it and then post their "expertise" on AR! | |||
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I'm shootin a 450 G&A...heavy load, 500's at 2400fps....light load..500's at 2250fps...in a 10lb rifle that fits me well...the more i shoot it the better i shoot it and like it ..." If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand which feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countryman " Samuel Adams, 1772 | |||
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I think this is a fine weight for the .458 Lott. As a matter of fact I like mine a little lighter.....about 9 pounds naked. When you get above 10 pounds, unscoped, you lose some of the .458 class' versatility over the .500's. At 9.75 pounds your rifle will weigh over 11 pounds when scoped, loaded, and with a sling. Add a buttstock shell with 8 or 9 rounds and you're knocking on 12 pounds! That's heavier than most people's unscoped .500 A2 or .500 Jeffery so I think 9.75 pounds unscoped is definately not too light for the Lott. The CZ's recoil isn't too bad. I think 22" or 24" will be fine. The CZ is a big rifle so I'd go with 22" if given the choice. I had a CZ in .458 Lott and it had the stock barrel, 25" I think, and it was a bit long for my taste but everybody is different. My .500 A2 project is based on the CZ 550 and will be sporting a 22" barrel to be as handy as possible in dense cover. That said, I think my Marlin 1895 Cowboy is very handy too and it has a 26" barrel(but a 9 shot magazine ). The .458 Lott won't lose anything in terms of real world performance with the shorter tube, maybe 50 fps. A 500 grain bullet at 2250 is still PLENTY for anything that walks. An extra 2" probably won't effect too much in handling either. GENERALLY SPEAKING, I don't care for big bores with barrels over 24 inches. DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS!! | |||
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Howdy For all you 458 Lott lovers out there check this out- https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2711043/m/382100978 Adios Sport | |||
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The .458Lott is a very useful ctg. What it is , is a .458 Lott ( it is what it is , nothing more and nothing less ). If you can shoot it and need it the ctg. is a wonderful one, but if you just cannot tolerate it for heavens sake leave it alone! It is a vicious recoiler that is the price for the performance. If you have physical disability (rotator cuff etc. etc.) or mentally cannot stand the punishment, shoot something w/ less perfomance. Dr.C At Home on the Range-Texas Panhandle | |||
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Good thread. To handle recoil you need a couple of things. MIND SET You need the right mind set, if you are afraid it will hurt you it will. Its like fighting, doesn't matter how hard you hit,if you fold the first time some one taps you (mind set). You need to be fit!!!! If you are soft and do not have good core strength and some mass in the shoulder, chest and arm area or you will feel it more. Big is not the thing,just fit and flexible. You need good hand strength!!!! When I got my 470 ,It was tearing me up. I thought it was just to much for me. In training for my plains game hunt in 05 I took my 375, and 416 out and fired 100 rounds each several times to get ready. At the end of the day I was fine but tired. I could not figure what was wrong and why I was having problem with the 470. I went to the skeet club with my little 16ga SXS. It was eating up my hand just like the 470. Off to the Dr I went. He found a 80% nerve loss right hand and 60% in the left. I was shooting the rifle well, and just dealing with the pain. (mindset) They did the work on both wrist 4/28,I will be back to the range soon and will report results. It could be up to 6 months before my hands come back. Gun Fit When I went to the Shoot and Hoot in TX last year. Kim shot the 505, and I shot 550 mag we both noted how much easier those rifles were to shot. The 550 was pleasant next to my 470. 400 Nitro showed me several well shaped stocks, and explained how they softened the feel of recoil.I bought a book on fitting stocks and went to work on the Merkel's stock. Even with the bad hands I noticed a big difference in face slap,and how fast I could get a second aimed shot off. I could even shot from the bench again with out much discomfort. This was with 500 gr at 2100 fps. Look up my post ( She's no longer a beast and a good day at the range) to read what I did to the stock. Gun fit is important !!! A chain is only as strong as it weakest link. If you are lacking in any of the above areas, you will feel it and It will effect your performance. If a 135lb woman like Cindy Garrison , and a little lady like Mrs Barnes can shoot big bore rifles . There is no reason other than poor health why most of us can't learn. 458 win mag - 458 Lott if you can do one you can do the other. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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IMHO, the Lott will probably put the 458WM to rest. Give it another 20 years or so. I can't think of a more versatile cartridge in the .458 caliber. The 45-70 is too small, the 460 weatherby is too big. The Lott seems to be the sweet spot. Brass is easy to come by, or can be formed from H&H brass. | |||
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I have 2 Lotts at the moment one is made on a Sako and the other one is a CZ 550. I think it is a fine use full big bore. You don’t have to load it to the max to get good results. Ray, I can’t think of any of the big bores that aren’t a “PAIN†when shot from awkward positions. Midway has .458 Lott brass 50 rd for $46.99 they say it is available. Bill Member DSC,DRSS,NRA,TSRA A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -Mark Twain There ought to be one day - just one – when there is open season on Congressmen. ~Will Rogers~ | |||
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I love my 458 Lott. Doesn't Kick bad. It is a great rifle. | |||
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In my opinion the 458 Lott is an extremely versatile cartridge for a big bore. You can download it with lighter bullets to do anything a 45-70 will do or up load it to come really close to the 500 Nitro in stopping power and penetration. Or you can load 400 or 450 grain bullets at relatively high velocity to meet most plains game and/or deer/elk loads. At upper 45-70 or 458 Win. velocity you have an excellent grizzly or brown bear load. The one problem is that if you want it capable of handling 500 Nitro or upper 458 Win loads it must be a minimum of 9.5 or 10 lbs. In my opinion, this makes it unnecessarily heavy for deer/elk/plains game. 465H&H | |||
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Add me to the list of Lott lovers. I have shot everything from ground squirrels to cape buffalo with mine. As others have said, the secret is gun fit, practice, and not hot-rodding. I load mine with 500-grain bullets at 2,200 fps for Africa, and 350-grain Speers at 2,600 fps for North America. I have two scopes in Talley rings for mine, a fixed 2.5x Leupold for the 500-grain load and a fixed 4x Leupold for the 350-grain load. One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know. - Groucho Marx | |||
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I do think the Lott is much more tolerable if you keep velocity around 2150. I think that is plenty of horsepower and gets you around that 5000 foot pounds of energy that has worked for a hundred years. 