quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:



The .450 Ackley was made some ten years before the .458 Lott, so that was his improvement of the Winmag, not the Lott.

Bent - Strictly speaking I do not think this is correct.

My understanding is that Ackley brought out the .450 Ackley Mag as an improvement of another full-length (2.875") .45 rifle round case of the day. I may be mis-remembering the name, but I think it was the .450 Watts.

Anyway, the 2.875" .450 Ackley case was a substitute for the 2.5" .458 Winchester case, not an improvement of it. If it will make any difference, I will look up the name of the old case for you, to be sure I have it correctly named.

John Buhmiller was also working with the same kinds of improvements at the same time, using .416 Rigby cases, .404 Jeffery cases, and the .375 H&H cases, at various lengths in each. The major difference was, Mr. Buhmiller spent a lot of time shooting his experimental cases in Africa, including several years of "control" work on dangerous game. Therefore, he went even farther than Ackley in using both larger bore diameters and bigger cases.

Best wishes,

AC

Canuck,
Tanks, and it was indeed the Watts, and some of my books claims it came out even before the .458WinMag.

But if PO had the urge to improove the .450 Watts, we are back to the original Q of this thread - why not the winmag to?

I do not care what I can do today with modern powders, nor that it is a bad idea, nor that since the Lott is a factory cartridge all else is hogwash.

The picture I see, is that there were a lot of badmouthing of the winmag back in the 70's, and at that time the only case they had to play around with, was the belted H&Hmag. Powders were limited too. Lots of .458 WinMags in mid-length actions. What to do?
Reaming an improoved chamber with longer throating could have been a simple, cheap way...

Winchester tried to duplicate the Ruark-made-popular .470 NE, with americas pet .458 bullet. Someone here claimed it was laziness from the people at Winchester, but they must have been roaring drunk all of them.

That said, today I think the .458 WinMag is better than ever. Modern bullets and powders and willingness to lower the bulletweight have made the old classic do the job it was intended to do.
This one:


And a FN from GS with the same weight would be my choise today, and never worry about its "taper to mouth".

But back then.........

Bent,

The 458 Winnie already is LOOOooong throated. You can literally hang the bullet out to a COL of 3.6" (or very damned close to it) and you have a 458 Lott (granted a new cannelure is needed for crimping). Off course you would need to lengthen your magazine well for a repeater.

Keep banging your head into the wall, as there is NO BENEFIT to a 458 Winchester Magnum Ackely Improved.

Now the real reason may have FAR more to do with the piss poor SN bullet Winchester was using in the original loads.

Trollin, Trollin Trollin
Keep that Bullshit Rollin
ScottS
Bent- Told YA SO!-Rob

quote:

Keep banging your head into the wall, as there is NO BENEFIT to a 458 Winchester Magnum Ackely Improved.

A 458 certainly has plenty of throat length, but if you dont think a paralell sided neck is better then a straight taper youve never seen 458's, 38-55's ect. finger twist round and round on their crimp like I have!

quote:

Originally posted by TSJ:

quote:

Keep banging your head into the wall, as there is NO BENEFIT to a 458 Winchester Magnum Ackely Improved.

A 458 certainly has plenty of throat length, but if you dont think a paralell sided neck is better then a straight taper youve never seen 458's, 38-55's ect. finger twist round and round on their crimp like I have!

Good point. IF I recall correctly that was perceived as one of the real advantages of the .458 Lott over the .450 Watts, when the Lott was first announced (back when Hector was almost still a pup).

The Watts did not have a substantial straight parallel neck, while the Lott apparently does.

IIRC, the watts and 450 ackley have parallel sided necks while the 458 lott does not; the lott has the same straight taper that a 458 win mag has, just a longer case.

I could be wrong, and if so, certainly ScottS will set me straight.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
In my books, both Watts and Lott taper from head to mouth. I am not sure about the Watts, but the Lott definately tapers all the way - no paralell neck there!

Hello,
Straight or taper case body easy enough to check w/ caliper/mic/etc. and the Lott does have a taper as mentioned. Lee Crimp die will stop the finger twisting of the bullet in the case. I shoot my Lott a fair amount and would not change a thing about the cartridge, JMHO.

TSJ,

"finger twist". Please explain this concept to me as it is foreign (probably just the terminology is foreign).

Figure TSJ will answer you, but believe they are referring to the ability for one to twist/turn the actual bullet in the case after seating bullet. Lee Crimp die will "crimp" tight regardless of straight wall or taper. If I am not telling you correctly sure others will add their knowledge.

I must say I have never seen a 458 Winnie bullet twist in the case after being seated!

I have seen the bullet "twist" in the case AS being seated. Is that what you were trying to say.

The straight tapered straight walled cases are easy to see the bullet cocked in the case, as it causes the case to bulge out more on one side that the other.

Interesting that they say this phenomena doesn't occur with side sided necks, AS IT DOES! The thing is that typically the bullet shank is longer than the case neck SO YOU DO NOT SEE IT.

In bottle necked, or straight sided necked cases this phenomena is called BULLET RUN-OUT!

As I have repeated stated there is NO BENEFIT TO THE ACKLEY IMPROVED CASE!

Now go put on your thinking caps gentlemen and come up with some fresh BS.

FISH ON !!!

KMuleinAK,

Isn't that what this whole thread is REALLY about anyways?

The Ackley Improved was nothing but a marketing scheme from day one. As someone has already stated on this thread these so-called improved cases were created by guys who did this work to make a living ie eat. Therefore, they created a "need" for something to drum up business and therefore eat better! DUH!!!

I leave you all now to wallow in you delusions of grandeur.

quote:

Originally posted by KMuleinAK:
IIRC, the watts and 450 ackley have parallel sided necks while the 458 lott does not; the lott has the same straight taper that a 458 win mag has, just a longer case.

I could be wrong, and if so, certainly ScottS will set me straight.

You could be correct, in that I've never had a .450 Watts. I have had (as previously mentioned in several threads) the .450 Ackley, and I know it is parallel sided at the neck.

My comment about the Watts NOT being parallel sided came from numerous gun rags of the day...it was one of the criticisms that I believe quickly doomed it....which is supposedly why you now see the Lott adopted as a factory round and not the Watts.

But I really don't care about the Watts anyway. The important point, to me, is that the .458 Winchester definitely does not have parallel sides in the neck, and thus could stand some "improvement" in design, even if it is NOT to "Ackleyize" it.

But then, I don't much care about the .458 Winchester either, even though I still have one of those. Mine was built especially for stunt use, i.e., shooting Kaibab mule deer that were standing behind a tree by putting the bullet THROUGH the tree.

One of my good friends in Phoenix taught me that trick, and if you look back through some of the old Sports Afield mags, you'll see a column on it by Pete Brown who witnessed my friend doing exactly that.

FOR MYSELF, if I was going to have any .450 bigger than a .45-90 built today, for a bolt gun I'd pick either a .450 Ackley Mag, a .460 G&A, or a plain vanilla .460 Weatherby. You guys can pick whatever suits you.

Alberta - like I said, IIRC - since I don't own a watts, I am not sure of the case dimensions. My 450 ackley,I am certain it has parallel neck. The ackley was my choice when I sold my 458 winnie (to obtain slightly more power in a 45 rifle cartridge).
ScottS - what is wrong with folks doing some wildcatting of cartridges as a way to increase interest and promote an idea, maybe sell some product?
Great hobby, some make it a living.
KMule

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:


My comment about the Watts NOT being parallel sided came from numerous gun rags of the day...it was one of the criticisms that I believe quickly doomed it....which is supposedly why you now see the Lott adopted as a factory round and not the Watts.

AC, neither Watts nor Lott have paralell necks. Thet both taper from belt to mouth, and both requires a 3-die-set, just like the .458 WinMag.

The .495 A2 and the .470 Capstick are the only ones with a ghost shoulder - taper from belt to neck, which is paralell.

I believe you Bent - That's the trouble with operating from memory of what you were told (or read) about 40 years ago.

I never looked too seriously into the .450 Lott anyway...not because of the cartridge itself, but because of my poor relationship with the inventor.

He tried to buy several hundred rounds of original Kynoch .470, .577, and other brass from me in 1973-'74, but was only willing to give me 50 cents a round. That wouldn't have been so bad and I might even have sold him some AND some RWS caps for the brass, which I also had plenty of, but THEN he tried to charge me $1.50 per round for plain vanilla .450-400 3" brass for my WR HD-boxlock I was giving to a friend.

I thought maybe he had made a typing error, so I wrote and asked him to repeat what he wanted for his brass. He wrote back a very short and nasty note, saying "You know what I want. Take it or leave it." Didn't seem quite like friendly quid-pro-quo to me, so I lost interest in both the designer and the cartridge.

I concede it is likely a great cartridge, but you know how it goes...why mess with that constant reminder of a deal gone sour when the .450 Ackley is just as useful, if not more so. And P.O. was always very nice to me.

Best wishes,

AC

You should write a book, AC, calling it "Hell, I was there too!"

Thank you for participating in this thread, and to all the rest. I guess nothing more will come up, but I sure would like to try one. If I recieve an order for a .450 Ackley, it would be fun to first ream it for .458winmag, then open up with the Ackley reamer and develop rounds to see for myself - before finnishing the chamber to .450 Ackley.

If I do, I'll let you know!

Thanks,

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
TSJ,

"finger twist". Please explain this concept to me as it is foreign (probably just the terminology is foreign).

"after crimping tightly the bullet is able to be twisted in the neck by finger pressure."

This "fault" is as common as dirt. I'm an expert at it because my case lengths are all over the place, I try to seat and crimp in one operation, and I have a fair bit of compression.

It seems to come from OVER crimping (pressure).
(Because if I increase pressure more it gets worse.)
The fix seems to be to back off and re-adjust.
Or crimp separately.

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
You should write a book, AC, calling it "Hell, I was there too!"

Thank you for participating in this thread, and to all the rest. I guess nothing more will come up, but I sure would like to try one. If I recieve an order for a .450 Ackley, it would be fun to first ream it for .458winmag, then open up with the Ackley reamer and develop rounds to see for myself - before finnishing the chamber to .450 Ackley.

If I do, I'll let you know!

Thanks,

if you do this it would be cool to see the results of the 2.65" version of the 450 ackley too since i think it will be 97% of the lott or the lott minus 25 fps. and doable without any extra smithing to get another 100 fps or lower preasure... 500@ 2275 is plenty and you can still use win mag ammo in a pinch

here is a poorly photoshoped vesion i have dubbed the "450 stompy"

458 win mag, 450 ackley and 450 stompy

throat the gun to lott length and exceed the lott in performance with the first round singly loaded to lott length and exceed the win mag by 100 fps in the following 3 shots. at dg distances the poi difference would be minimal

this 450 stompy would be better for m98 size mausers

i guess nobody liked the 450 stompy...

Well, ah....yes.
To ream as long as your magazine alowes is a good thing.
But most rifles are stuffed with the regular length .458, or will give room to the Lott/Ackley.

Or am I missing something?

Are the.458WM or .458 Lott inadequate?

I do understand why would anyone bother with this Ackley nonsense? For 50 fps?

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
Well, ah....yes.
To ream as long as your magazine alowes is a good thing.
But most rifles are stuffed with the regular length .458, or will give room to the Lott/Ackley.

Or am I missing something?

the idea is exactly that... reaming the 450 ackley to the max the mag will allow with the bullets you are going to use. at 2.65" a lot of actions will accomodate you will get 97% of the lott and can exceed it in single loaded round.

if you had a m98 mauser it would be better to only go as far as it is safe and practical and i just figured that length.

quote:

Are the.458WM or .458 Lott inadequate?

no...sometimes photography can be more about cameras than pictures and guns more about guns than killing yup...dont make sense.

Well, I am going to do it!

A customer heard about my idea, and he wanted one!
We are going to ream it to .458 Win mag first, measure, chronograph, preassure test, and then repeat it after cleaning up the chamber with a .450 Ackley reamer, reamed to the same length as the .458 WinMag.

So we will see for our self just how much of an improovement it will be!!!

I'll keep you posted!

You go Bent!! DO it.. and, if theres not much, would you like to borrow the 458AR reamer?

jeffe

LOL, I already told him that, but thanks, man!

He really liked the idea of shooting factory ammo, combined with the two-die set of the Acley. And he is not expecting a big improovement, just happy to be part of an interesting project!

Dear Mr. Fossdal:

I am very curious as to your findings.

Please do me a favor when your loads get pretty hot. See if you can measure the bolt handle lift resistance between the regular 458 Win. Mag. and the Ackley version.

In my experience, the bolt handle lift resistance is non-existent even when the extraction becomes harder with my 7x57 AI cases loaded hot. This seems to confirm somewhat P. O. Ackley's experiment with a 250-3000 AI in an 1899 Savage lever action where the chamber swelled before extraction became difficult.

I am sitting on the fence as to my 458 Win. Mag. AI or 458-375 Ruger build. Presently, I am doing feeding work on a 416-375 Ruger on a 1908 Mauser action. I'm going to have to cut up the original military magazine's sides, and weld on 1/32" sheet steel to make it wide enough. I'm using an original list of the dimensions of commmercial Mauser magazine boxes before WW-II as a guide.

On the other hand the H&H case based, 416 Taylor feeds a bit better with a slightly widened magazine without welding on new sides. So the choice is between a bigger case or easier work on the magazine.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Mr.Bemis

I plan to measure preassure a bit more scientific than "feeling" the boltlift, as I happen to have a friend who has the equipment.

I follow you totally in your thoughts about the .458 Ruger, and the only thing that holds me back is two things. Head stamp, and the opinion that fiering .458 WinMag in the .458 Ruger chamber will take to much velocity off the already strained WinMag.
I am not even sure if the winmag can safely be fiered in the Ruger chamber.

I have made a few Tylors on the m98, but never widened the magazine box... But I always made them to hold 3 down.

Cheers!

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
Genlemen, what an outstanding job you are all doing , talking about everything than the question asked!

So I take it none vere made.
Ain't that funny.

.............Bent ,, Your great

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeoso

and he made the 450 alaskan.. which is an ackley'ed 348x45...


jeffe

[ Ackley came p with the 45 /348 ..,,Johnson and Fuller came up with the 450 Alaskan ....With the lever action the 450 Ak proved to feed more reliably ...All JKR rifles were made in the 450 Alaskan ....those that were made in the 458 cal anyway .

I think some of you folks just make up stuff..Since when is taper a BAD thing in a dangerous game rifle? It is a plus and it is needed, it helps with extraction particularly with a hot load, the equates to proper functioning and saves your life, at least in therory.

The only requirement in this thread that is of any use is the velocity that one can get with a .458 caliber, and that is the caliber should get at least 2100 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet and at low pressure levels...All the calibers mentioned will get you buy on this but the .458 Winchester struggles to do this and in fact may not as it creates pressure and compaction to do so...

The intelligent answer is the Lott, and the fact that it is a factory round is the answer to the question pure and simple, its the best choice, the rest is gobble goop...

I would have prefered the African version with the 3 inch case, but alas that did not come about from the factory so I would opt for the Lott as the only practical .458 caliber today.

I guess thats why I opt for the 416 Rem, it keeps my life simple and I don't have to grieve over such trivial pursuits!

Dear Mr. Fossdal:

How would you get the 458 Win. Mag. to headspace in a 458-375 Ruger chamber?

That is one of the reasons that I may still choose to build a 458 Win. Mag. AI so that I could use the ever present 458 Win. Mag. in a pinch.

As far as the 458 Lott is concerned, I want to use my 1908 Mausers, and don't want to chop up the lower receiver lug to allow for the longer Lott cartridge.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

Originally posted by Yale:
Dear Mr. Fossdal:

How would you get the 458 Win. Mag. to headspace in a 458-375 Ruger chamber?

That is one of the reasons that I may still choose to build a 458 Win. Mag. AI so that I could use the ever present 458 Win. Mag. in a pinch.

As far as the 458 Lott is concerned, I want to use my 1908 Mausers, and don't want to chop up the lower receiver lug to allow for the longer Lott cartridge.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

............................ .....Now heres and idea lads ....Run a 450 Watts reamer , straight taper ,, reamer in ,,,then a 300 win mag reamer w, 450 long pilot in .........................Next , if necessary for your magazine box , trim necked up 300 Win. mag brass to 2.490 case length ,,,,,,Now for the big kicker ,,,DON,T use 500 gr bullets ,.,., use 450 gr bullets max ....They will go flying out a 20 " barrel @ 2200 fps with relatively low pressure and less powder compression / by a small amount . than the 458 Win mag ..........The chamber will shoot 458 win mag , 458/300 wim mag , 458 Lott and 450 long Watts If your rifle starts out as a CZ550 MEDIUM in 7 mm Rem mag the magizine box is long enough for the untrimmed , necked up 300 win mag case ..........Kind of a 425 Express kind of thing ....If you shoot 400 gr and lighter bullets , you will be even further ahead of the game .........I have toyed with this idea for more than 10 years but have not been settled enough to get the equipment to do it ... I may have my gunsmith do it this summer if I can talk him into it .......Even with 458 brass fire formed it is still completely usable brass .......If you don,t think so , look at a 300 Savage case sometime .........If left full length the neck is approx.37 " If trimmed to 2.45, to merry up with the cannelure on 500 gr bullets and 3.4" magazine boxes ,, the neck is like .27" I think 300 win mag is the worlds most popular H&H belted head size brass ........I,m holding one of them in my hand now with a 450 gr X bullet seated in it ......With that bullet crimped in the cannelure it is too long for a Ruger Mag. box but easily fits in a 9.3x62 Maus.CZ550 Medium , magizine box ....I can cut a new cannelure on the bullet and it will work fine with the full length necked up 300 win mag brass ...

.......Oh and for those wondering why I would ream it to 450 Watts ,.,.If there is a ammo mix up you have a better chance of still having a shooting rifle ,,, even if its a single shot ...

Kind of an interesting idea, but I don't see much point in removing taper that makes extraction more positive. Guess I'm less experimental, but if I wanted more why not just rechamber to Lott or .460 Weatherby instead?

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I think some of you folks just make up stuff..Since when is taper a BAD thing in a dangerous game rifle? It is a plus and it is needed, it helps with extraction particularly with a hot load, the equates to proper functioning and saves your life, at least in therory.

In theory, yes. Some people make up stuff, some people dwell to much on days gone by, and what was written then.
Have there ever been reports of problems with extraction on cartridges like .450 Ackley or ..470 Capstick? Your 10,75x68 had minmal taper, did it ever give you any problems?

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The only requirement in this thread that is of any use is the velocity that one can get with a .458 caliber, and that is the caliber should get at least 2100 FPS with a 500 gr. bullet and at low pressure levels...All the calibers mentioned will get you buy on this but the .458 Winchester struggles to do this and in fact may not as it creates pressure and compaction to do so...

And this is what I am working with. In an already existing gun chambered for .458 WinMag with no posibility of lengthening the chamber, and with the possibility of shooting easy to come by factory rounds, this might get you to 2150 a bit easier.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The intelligent answer is the Lott, and the fact that it is a factory round is the answer to the question pure and simple, its the best choice, the rest is gobble goop...

I aggree, but if the AI version can take the WinMag closer to the Lott, many a gun could be helped to a better life.
I do not know, never said I did - I said that I will try and see what it does, and let you gentlemen know what I find.

quote:

Originally posted by Yale:
Dear Mr. Fossdal:

How would you get the 458 Win. Mag. to headspace in a 458-375 Ruger chamber?

Chris Bemis

All the way true, Mr.Bemis, no headspace, but a gun with a Mauser extractor would hold the cartridge in place well enough to let go the trigger. But I do not like it, and feel, like you, that the AI is a better solution. In a few weeks we will know at least how the AI is doing!