The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Is a 375 H&H a truly adequate cartridge?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I know a 375 H&H is the minimum caliber for DG in several countries, but how many of you would not trust it in a bad situation even with premium hand loaded bullets with a known velocity? I have never hunted dangerous game nor out of N. America, but am intrigued by it. I intend to go on a brown bear hunt in the next few years. My question is not only about bear hunting but for any game - big and/or dangerous. On another forum, an African guide posted that he has little to no faith in the 375, and considers the 338WM to be a much better cartridge, for the big plains game as well as DG in an emergency. He also said, in his post that he had a bad experience once with a 375. I recently bought a 375 H&H and a 338 WM and my particular rifles, am getting roughly the same velocity with a 270 gr. bullet in the 375 as I am getting with the 338 and 225 gr. I cannot, for the life of me, see where this guy is coming from. With equal velocities the nod will always go to the heavier bullet provided they are constructed the same with similar BCs. I guess what I am asking is how many of you experienced guys would feel under-rifled with a 375 H&H if something got hairy (with premium handloaded bullets)????? "The right to bear arms" insures your right to freedom, free speech, religion, your choice of doctors, etc. ....etc. ....etc.... -----------------------------------one trillion seconds = 31,709 years------------------- | ||
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Well I am not a fan of the 338WM, much prefering the 375H&H, however I sometimes have to hunt with one as that's what my mate has to use !!! However, in the 2 instances I have been charged from close range (one by a Buff, one by a Scrub Bull), both time I had a 338WM in my hands. I waited until the Cow Buff was at 15 yards and fired, hit her in the neck, she turned and ran off at an angle. The Scrub Bull I brained at 15 yards, stone dead. Now I have shot a fair few Buff, medium and large with both calibres and the 375H&H wins hands down IMHO. So I would not feel under rifled with a 375H&H in my hands - For stopping, bullet placement takes priority over calibre if that is all you have in your hands but I really don't think it matters which you have in your hands as I think either would work. That's my HO. | |||
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Lots of experience does not necessarily mean lots of knowledge. The 375HH is a very adequate cartridge. The only thing that causes an instaneous stop is interuption of the Central Nervous System (CNS) and it won't matter if it was 257 Robets through the eye socket or a 416 rem mag through the spine. Any heart, lung, or shoulder shot is subject to the adrenaline and unique disposition of the animal. Does a 416 rem mag in the heart lung area do more damage than a 375HH sure...does a 375hh do more damage than a 30-06 sure...but betting your life that a 416 rem mag in the chest is going to kill faster than a 375hh in the chest is not good bet. Shot placement and immediate follow up shots is a much better bet even when the animal is hit and gone down...put another one into it. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Elephant hunting is the only hunting where a 375H&H is too light, imo. And even for elephant hunting, it will do the job. Elephants are often hunted in thich bush, or encountered there. In thick bush, elephants can be suprisingly hard to see. Close encounters can occur and if you hunt elephants enough they will occur. Big bore rifles, 45 cal and greater, with +/- 500ft lbs of energy throwing 500gr+ bullets will turn elephants more reliably than lighter rifles. And before the "don't miss" crowd chimes in, in the thick stuff, you may have but a fraction of a moment to make your shot, and you may have a lousy angle too boot. In addition, braining an elephant on a frontal shot isn't as easy as arm chair experts would have one believe, let alone a frontal shot on a charging ele. I've stopped two charges with shots that missed the brain. The PH, who fired after I did in both instances also missed the brain, so there goes relying on the PH to save your skin. But, if it was the heaviest rifle I had with me, I would elephant hunt with a 375H&H. It is my second and back up rifle for my elephant hunting trips. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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I would not hesitate (well, maybe for a minute or two) to use a .338 on anything that walks, crawls or swims. But I and anyone with the right experience would prefer a .375 if constrained by circumstance to use of a medium bore. With good bullets in both calibers, of course. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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A friend of mine that I have known for over 30 years has taken 5 Elephants 1 with a rifle and 4 with a Contender. One was taken with a 45-70 and three were taken with the 375 JDJ in a Contender. He didn't have a problem and none of those cartridges reached 2150 FPS _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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With my 375 I can shoot to 150yds and all my rounds go into a 1" circle. I have not used it for hunting yet. | |||
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Of the .45 cal bolt rifles, the Lott is probably the easiest way to get a .45 cal rifle made up, I would guess? Other than the .458 Win Mag. What other .45 & up cartridges would make a reasonably strait forward build of a bolt rifle? Taking in consideration recoil and all, since the Lott seems to exceed a number of folks recoil comfort level. Is there a .45 or bigger that has a different feel to the recoil than the Lott that would be more comfortable to shoot? Just wondering. Allen It's a Mauser thing, you wouldn't understand. | |||
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The 375 is the Queen of the medium bores. The 338 is adequate. I would never choose a 338 if a 375 was available  DRSS & Bolt Action Trash | |||
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Here are some quotes from a PH who has definitely had some experience! quote: Originally posted by Harry Selby: In my opinion you have not only an exceptionally beautiful rifle there but an entirely practical one as well. In my fifty five years of professional hunting my respect for the .375 H&H cartridge has increased each time I saw it used. In my opinion the greatest cartridge ever developed. I would prefer to see a visiting hunter arrive for his safari with such a rifle than with a double of any caliber. Good luck on your hunt. Harry Selby. Harry Selby’s comments on caliber choice for clients in September issue of American Rifleman… “ I generally encouraged a hunter, unless he had previous experience in handling a heavy double, to use my .375 instead…Many took my advice and benefited from the increased accuracy and additional effective range the .375 provided, resulting in noticeable reduction in wounded animal follow ups.” ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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The 375 H&H is only inadequate when used by an inadequate hunter. 465H&H | |||
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its a great medium opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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What 465H&H said, plus one! If I were hunting with a good PH (NOT! a 9,3x62 fan) I could go with a 375 Holland. I'm insecure, so I own bigger rifles and one of them with a number starting with ".4" would be my preference. That said, I believe you shoot the biggest bore you can put three shots under 3" at a hundred yards (day in and day out) off the sticks in fifteen seconds or less. Preferably much less. Rich | |||
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I've pretty much decided to stop buying new guns and just spend the money on hunting trips using the guns that I already own. The biggest rifle I own is a 375 H&H. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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In the proper hands a 375 is quite adequate and will out penetrate most if not all big bores. I would recommend that you use 300 grain bullets. The 375 or 338 are the calibers of choice for AK big brownies. Answering you other question, I would feel undergunned with a 375 in thick brush when things get hairy. "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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A conclusion to which I have arrived as well. analog_peninsula ----------------------- It takes character to withstand the rigors of indolence. | |||
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dirk The thing is, it doesn;t matter if you are carrying a 500 Nitro, 600 Nitro or 700 Nitro, if you can't hit the damn animal in the right place, it isn't going to matter. OK, you will get "some" shock effect if you are just off target with a bigger bore but in some ways, better to be "spot on target" with a smaller medium bore that you shoot well than a big bore than you can't snap shoot well. | |||
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As JPK stated, against elephants in very thick Jesse or a charging elephant, you may want a 500 A2 or Jeffery and above for a stopper. IMHO a .375 H & H is too light for these circumstances as a perfect shot cannot always be made. Been there and done that! Of course, you must at least hit the target. The larger calibers do not shoot themselves, so practice, practice, practice. Also, don't believe the stories of lack of penetration with some of the big bores. If properly loaded they work fine. My 585 last August gave me 45 and 50+ inches of frontal penetration last August at 2300 fps. Just don't load the big bores to slow velocities. Dak | |||
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I prefer the .416Rem over the .375H&H. This is also the preference of the many serious safari hunters I know, all of whom have made multiple safaris in many sub-Saharan African countries. It seems we all came to the same conclusion during the last century, and that was there is nothing the .375H&H can do that the .416Rem won't do better and more efficiently. Having taken my first Ele with my .375H&H, I came home and immediately started searching for a .416Rem. They were virtually impossible to find at that time but persistence finally paid off. I now carry a .458Lott as a heavy rifle but still have a .416 and a .375, although the .375 does duty in NA exclusively. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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The PH I hunted Tanzania with told me he killed over 200 elephants during culling operations with 30-06 and 220 gr solids. I would not choose the 30-06 to hunt elephants with but would use 375 or 416 rem since I sold my 470 | |||
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Even works good on Jack Rabbits! The 338 winnie is a great cartridge, but it is no .375! John | |||
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The 220gr Solid out of a 30.06 is a very good penetrator. Not sure I would do it on Elephant. | |||
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Yes, if you live in a perfect world all bullets find the CNS on charging DG. In the real world big bores produce more than 'some' shock effect that can save your ass in a tight place. Personally I have shot a charging elephant at five yards and I felt very comfortable with my 500 N.E. rather than my 375 H&H. It's the confidence/comfort I enjoy with the 500 not that my 375 wouldn't get the job done. "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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Yes, if you live in a perfect world all bullets find the CNS on charging DG. In the real world big bores produce more than 'some' shock effect that can save your ass in a tight place. Personally I have shot a charging elephant at five yards and I felt very comfortable with my 500 N.E. rather than my 375 H&H. It's the confidence/comfort I enjoy with the 500 not that my 375 wouldn't get the job done.[/QUOTE] Same here. In fact, I make sure I am confident with my guns before I go out hunting. And in retrospect, in view of a couple of charges faced, I am damn glad I put in the time and effort beforehand as it payed off. Re the Big Bores - 500 cal +, yes, I have seen the shock effect when animals are hit - it is quite interesting seeing it ripple along the bodies of the animals. | |||
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The key to any successful hunt! The problem starts with hunters shooting too big a caliber that they can't shoot straight. If it's not too big a caliber it's too little proper practice with it. I'm not here to toot my whistle but I shoot big bores approximately once every 7-10 days, probably more than most. "An individual with experience is never at the mercies of an individual with an argument" | |||
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Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner! I agree with you 100%. Does that tell you what my favorite cartridge is? ****************************** There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor polite, nor popular -- but one must ask, "Is it right?" Martin Luther King, Jr. | |||
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You have to see the effect of a double tap from a 500 Nitro to believe it."Medium bore" rifles are not stopping rifles,nor were they ever meant to be.They deliver an accurate blow at range because their lower recoil allows them to be shot with greater accuracy. Australia I love a sunburnt country, A land of sweeping plains, Of ragged mountain ranges, Of drought and flooding rains. I love her far horizons, I love her jewel-sea, Her beauty and her terror The wide brown land for me! | |||
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"They deliver an accurate blow at range because their lower recoil allows them to be shot with greater accuracy." Not sure on that Wombat. I can shoot my 500's just as accurately, albeit without a scope but put the 2 side by side, they are both as accurate as each other. | |||
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Adequate? After 100 years I would say so  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Dear 500N,I was speaking only for myself.My 500 Searcy is much more accurate than I am.However,I can shoot my 338 with much greater accuracy than my 500 due to recoil,but others will have a different view.At ranges under 25yds, have no doubt the 500 is the rifle I prefer when dangerous game is likely to be encounted. Australia I love a sunburnt country, A land of sweeping plains, Of ragged mountain ranges, Of drought and flooding rains. I love her far horizons, I love her jewel-sea, Her beauty and her terror The wide brown land for me! | |||
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No worries. That maybe just the time spent in the field with large calibre double's then. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Is a 375 H&H a truly adequate cartridge?
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