The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 500 Jeffery vs. 505 GibbsGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
One of Us |
With all the excitement around the CZ now being available with cross bolts in the 505 Gibbs chambering I am wondering what the pros and cons are of the 500 Jeffery versus the 505 Gibbs (is it Gibb or Gibbs with an S?). I realize this has probably already been discussed on AR (what hasn't?) but relatively inexpensive rifles in these calibers haven't been available in any quantity until lately so perhaps it is worth revisiting. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | ||
|
| One of Us |
Hello Wink, Yes, it is .505 Gibbs. The major consideration in my mind is brass availability and standard case deminsions. The .505 Gibbs now has brass available from Norma which is a plus and has one standard case deminision. The .500 Jeffery is also known as the 12.7x70mm Schuler and I believe there are two different case deminsions for the .500 Jeffery and they are not interchangable. Someone else here may be able to clarify this point. Of course the .505 Gibbs is a .505" diameter bullet and the .500 Jeffery is a .510" diameter bullet same as .500 Nitro. Probably more bullet selection for the .510". Buliwyf | |||
|
| One of Us |
500 Jeffery: Advantage - can be built on a standard model 98 Mauser so is easier to handle that the longer, heavier actions used for the 505 Gibbs. Disadvantage - probably only half a dozen gunsmiths in the U.S. know how to make one feed properly, and there are LOTS of 500 jeffery rifles out there that do not feed. The European custom gunmakers seem to do a good job of making this cartridge feed, but of course those guns are expensive. A .500 Jeffery is not a project for just any gunsmith. ___ 505 Gibbs: Advantage - no rebated rim, really cool looking huge cartridge. Disadvantage - 0.640" rim, so a .700" bolt body diameter (CZ550) is too small. So an expensive magnum mauser action is necessary to do it right. Also, limited selection of bullets, and powder charges are huge (140 grains) to achieve the same velocity as the 500 Jeffery, so more more recoil. Also, there have been some negative reports of how the .505 Gibbs feeds out of the CZ550. In sum, I have not seen an affordable .505 or .500 jeffery that I would trust to use on a dangerous game hunt. And there are some unaffordable ones I would not trust either. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I have seen Jonathan Tomlinson's posts on the differences between the Schuler and the Jeffery so I have a feel for that. Since I would assume that they would be relatively similar in terms of results in the field, I would think that bullet selection and reloading ease would be pertinent considerations before deciding. Which comes our ahead on that score? _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
|
One of Us |
Wink, Don’t quote me on this, but my friend whom spoke with CZ the other day said that they were going to bring out the 500 Jeffery in the near future. Pro’s & con’s, I’m sure their on some that would tout the attributes or short comings of either cartridge. I just bought the Gibbs but will probably buy the Jeffery sooner or later (I’m not one of these Ford vs. Chevy type of guys). For the sake of redundancy (I started typing before the other posts showed up on my screen). From my general understanding the Gibbs is a larger lower pressure cartridge with the Jeffery being smaller and operating at a higher pressure. I’m currently experimenting with relatively higher pressure loadings in the Gibbs. I figure with its larger case capacity it can match the ballistics of the Jeffery at lower pressures. This “performance†oriented loading data for the Gibbs is hard to find, though I’ve got some general guidance from here on AR and some from Woodleigh bullets of Australia. Both cartridges are expensive to load for. The Gibbs uses .505 diameter bullets and the Jeffery uses .510 (true 50 caliber). Allot of guys tout bullet selection as being a positive for the Jeffery, but I see just as many .505 caliber hunting bullets for the Gibbs (Barnes, Woodleigh, Hawk, & GS). Bolt face size, I’ve heard some complain and others say it’s much ado about nothing. There have been a lot of big cartridges built on the CZ 550 (600 OK & 585 Nayati). Just my two cents…. Matt V. ______________________ Sometimes there is no spring... Just the wind that smells fresh before the storm... | |||
|
one of us |
I have both a .500 AHR( better designed .500 Jeffery) and a .505 Gibbs. I'd go with the CZ in 505 Gibbs over the Jeffery any day. Dan is correct most .500 jeffery's I've handled won't feed worth a damn. Unfortunately most of the owners don't even know what reliable feeding really is. I've got a M98 action half completed with a Single stack mag for the .500 Jeffery and good luck trying to find a US gunsmith who could duplicate it for a price south of $5K. My advice is buy the CZ 505 Gibbs and get lots of trigger time. Modify it with mercury recoil reducers, muzzel brake, and F990 pad. You'lll be glad you did. Lie down till the .500 Jeff idea goes away.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
|
| One of Us |
I am concerned with the availability of brass and in particular, quality brass. Therefore, I would say that the .505 Gibbs is ahead on that score for the time being because Norma is producing .505 Gibbs brass. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I have to pretty much agree with Dan and Rob here, except what Dans' thoughts are on the boltface diameter being a bit too small. With product liability concerns being what they are today; you can bet CZ worked on this until they believed they had it functional. A local shop has one ordered for display, etc...or the first person that walks in and wants it. The owner "owes me one" and is going to let me tag along when he test fires it and shoot it. I shot a friends' extensively a month ago, and IMHO the factory load is a misuse of the case capacity. I was shooting a 650gr bullet right at 2100fps comfortably (from a bench). To me it makes more sense than the factory 525gr at 2300fps. The perfect platform for a 505, or any case on the Gibbs cylindrical case is a P14/17/M30/M34/M35 in my opinion. The P14 boltface is for a .303...so it is bigger. Let me see if I can post one here later. regards, Rich | |||
|
One of Us |
 rob...you are one funny dude... rob...what do you think of my compromise 500 jeffe... just take the non rebated 500 ahr and trim at 500 jeffe length. yes it will have the same sub cal neck length neck but will do away with the biggest flaw the jeffery had...call it a 500 jeffery improved or non rebated...  use the same ahr brass dies reamer but zero feeding issues 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
|
| one of us |
Especially if you reload, the 500 Jeffery is good. There are issues with both of the bigger rounds. The wildcats are a reload only proposition anyway so don't count. The 500 Jeffery case as is delivered from the factory for loading will fit either the 500 Jeffery or the Shuller. Once fire formed they fit your chamber and no worries mate. If you have a poorly built rifle in either caliber then you have some issues. I think more makers have made up rifles for the Jeffery than the Gibbs as the latter must be made up on a huge action that is both expensive and difficult to find. If someone is skilled enough to build a Gibbs from a standard CZ then they have the skill to do the Jeffery. square shooter | |||
|
| One of Us |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter: makes more sense than the factory 525gr at 2300fps. Ditto, I’m sure that the 525@2300 will work (and has worked) great on game. But with the size of the Gibbs case I think 600 grain bullets are more on order (like the 500A2). Otherwise, you’re really not that much better off than the Lott with 500@2250. I’ve worked up to 2100 fps with 600 GR Woodleighs and am going to try to go higher this weekend. Matt V. ______________________ Sometimes there is no spring... Just the wind that smells fresh before the storm... | |||
|
Moderator |
CZ is doign the 500 Jeffe, CIP drawing, as a safari classic, or whatever the 505 gibbs is jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
that would be perfect to rechamber to a 510 gibbs or 500 ahr! 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
|
| One of Us |
Jamison makes inexpensive brass for the 505 but i don't think they do for the 500. I wouldn't base my decision on that fact but you could save yourself a few $100 choosing the 505. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Graph & Sons lists Jamison brass for the 500 Jeffery but it is out of stock. Slightly more expensive that the 505 Gibbs brass. I don’t know if the Jeffery brass is as readily available as the Gibbs. Once CZ starts making rifles it probably will be. In reality both cartridges are expensive to load for so saving a few bucks either way isn’t a really valid point. A set of dies for either cartridge is going to set you back $300.00 or more. Hell, I bet if you did the math it’s probably cheaper to load for a 50 BMG! I paid more for my 505 dies than I could have bought a RCBS 50 BMG starter kit for (that includes the dies)! Matt V. ______________________ Sometimes there is no spring... Just the wind that smells fresh before the storm... | |||
|
One of Us |
The .500 JEffrey will never go away, it comes back to hunt dangerous game all the time, and in the nest year one will be buildt for me aswell............ | |||
|
| One of Us |
There have been plenty of 500 Jefferys done in Australia. They are done as vertical stack but I think the stack is held over to one side of the box. For me personally, I would prefer the 505 because I think it is juts a classsier thing. But either 500 J or 505 Gibbs I woul dnot want one unless it was a real top end custom gun. If the gun was to base type gun on CZ type rifle, then I would rather a 500 A2. Mike | |||
|
| one of us |
A .500 AHR is a decent custom gun for $3K or so. Ed has the recipe pretty well worked out by now. It comes with a Single stack and will most probably feed decently. It's the cheapest way to go if you just have to have a .500 Jeff. I would never commission a gunsmith to build one. You will regret that decision. Personally, I'd take the Gibbs. Its just a sexier cartridge to me at least.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
|
| One of Us |
I have handled three P-series and M30-series Remingtons in the last 60 days chambered for the 505 Gibbs. Two of the three fed flawlessly, and the third was not finished completely. The last fed flawlessly, the extractor just needed "tweaked" a little more. A stock enfield box can have the ends flipped 180-degrees and take the big Gibbs. The P14 triggerguard/floorplate gives you the dropped box look, and makes it possible to get four rounds in with a little work. Go big with a fifty or stay at home...go Gibbs. Rich | |||
|
| One of Us |
If getting a 500j to feed properly is a nightmare which i believe it is, though not from personal experience, but from others who have been there, and tried to deal with it ! I find it a bit laughable, that CZ or Brno are going to make a rifle in 500 Jeffery .I had a new brno in 243, 27 years ago and the goddamn thing would not feed .10 years ago i bought a brand new 458 and it would not feed !!!!!!!! anyway ,if your going to Africa as long as you get your first shot away it doesnt matter if it feeds or not, your PH will be the fastest follow up shot, which you wont beat even if your gun does feed | |||
|
| one of us |
Me too, 500A2 is said to feed real slick in the CZ's, maybe not as nostalgic as the other two, but for nostalgia I have a 375 H&H and a 416 Rigby. 500A2 is just much more desirable IMHO. ---------------------------------- Never Go Undergunned, Always Check The Sight In, Perform At Show Time. Good judgment comes from bad experience! Learn from the mistakes of others as you won't live long enough to make them all yourself! | |||
|
| one of us |
And of course the 500 Mbogo has them all beat. Bigger and badder than the 500 A2 and can be loaded to the same external ballistics as the .505 Gibbs because it does not have the bolt thrust/pressure limitations of the .505 Gibbs in a Mauser Magnum. I have tried the CZ .505 Gibbs and a couple of 500 A2's I call the .510 JAB or .510/460 Wby Improved JAB. I am too wise to mess with the problematic 500 Jeffery, but looney enough for a 500 Mbogo. | |||
|
| one of us |
More mental masturbation, but at least this time in a good direction. Rob, Ed is chargin' quite a few more pennies than three grand for a 500 AHR (more like $4500+). In my opinion an investment well worth it!!!! | |||
|
| one of us |
The 500 AHR: Brass by Bertram? | |||
|
one of us |
Hi, Don't be surprised if you would see Norma made .500 Jeffery brass in the next year or two  Husky | |||
|
| Moderator |
yep, without a doubt, confirmed on both ends some time ago.. which is why i passed.
scott, funny that you think so TODAY, as you certainly had (under your various personae) differing opinions and "ability" to keep that investment. jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
|
| one of us |
Agreed, the Bertram brass is not the greatest, but works for the 500 AHR if it is cold worked through full length sizing dies a few times. Assuming all the case dimensions are good to begin with. Maybe Ed can contract this brass with Jamison or Horneber in the future. Still like the design of the cartridge and the results it brings. Could really take off with good grade brass, IMHO. Dak | |||
|
One of Us |
What is the 50 AHR or 510AHR............ Alot of cz,s don,t feed so good out of the box but I,de rather get an affordable big bore I can play with and get to be good friends with than some masterpiece I,m afraid to attempt to wear out and thereby get to be truely lethal with....... Course ....when I , LORD willing get a large bore double rifle.,., I,m gonna wear that sucker out.............. A guy that runs a gun shop in Enid ok. told me a double should go for 5000 rounds or a lot more ..........I plan to see...... Sure do hope so .............But I will probably always be satisfied with the 500 A-Sq.even if brown bears arn,t elephants.........The 500 gr HAWK sptz .050 jacket @ 2650 fps should work fairly well............. But I don,t know what the AHR cartridge is ?????? I would choose the 505 over the Shuler / Jeffries round.............Just cause...... .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
|
One of Us |
Feeding the 500 jeffery reliably from stagger stack is about a 3 day project, one way to go is a Blackburn Rigby box, cut and weld the front of the box back to 3.550 or weld in an internal box block in the front of the box, then set up and machine out .025 per side, make it wider internally, just up to the shoulder of the case, match the internal box dimensions to the bottom of the action, take it out with a 3/8 ball mill, just cutting .015 off the thickness of the bottom of the rails to get the case high enough in the action so the bolt face engauges the rebated rim, cut the feed ramp wider at the bottom than at the top, leave as much steel in the top of the feed ramp as you can for strength right behind the locking lug. Load it up and push a round towards the chamber see where it wants to rise up, with a die grinder and a conical shaped stone carefully shape the rails of the action, basically the front half of the rail, you want to create a slight bow to the shape that you are grinding, you don't grind in back, at the back 1/3rd of the rail where the case sits under the rail, you want to maintain as much rail overhang there as possible to keep the rounds in the magazine while cycling the action, grind a small amout at a time, don't go hogwild and think you'll get it all in one shot, with a soft rapid breakdown moldstone polish the ground areas between gindings and acess the feeding, working up to perfect feed function. When cycling the action change your cadence speed don't function the bolt at the same speed all the time because all people don't all push and pull a bolt the same, good function is not limited to just one bolt speed, like if you're trying to be quiet and need to just slowly camber a round, must do it, or if your yankin and crankin getting the lead in the air, it must do it. Ensure feeding all bolt speeds, play with it, load the rounds in it haphazardly with you'r eyes closed, try to make it fail, if you can't make it fail it's done. Grind, polish, acess. Grind, ploish, acess. Oh yea when opening up the width between rails, take just enough off to just pass a round thru the 500 is big and don't want that rail width to wide at the get go or it will plague you and add a ton of time to your conversion, just enough to pass a round thru, I can't stress that enough, take too much and you're done before you start. Then you'll find yourself converting to single stack clip feed to save the receiver. This is all information I have learned by doing it and it works for me, some may have other ways of getting to point B Which is fine, more ways than one is a good thing. A 500 Jeffery that works well is a really cool rifle to own and a blast to shoot. Timan | |||
|
| one of us |
Worth repeating. A similar though less intensive process can be used to make a CZ 550 Magnum .375 H&H work reliably for the .375 RUM. The .338 Lapua Magnum and indeed its parent case the .416 Rigby are a breeze by comparison. I suspect if Stuart delivered an action appropriate for the .416 Rigby, then the feed work necessary would be about nil for all the .338 Lapua Magnum wildcats. The 500 and 400 Mbogo might require some polishing of the feed ramp.  | |||
|
| one of us |
Wink, I have a 500 Jeffery under construction now by a local gunsmith. It took him about a week to get it feed properly. Right now he is fitting a tang safety on it. I should be able to fire it by Feb. if it keeps going as it is. I'll put it in a plastic stock to work up loads, meanwhile the stockmaker is choosing between 2 pieces of walnut I gave to him. I started with a Whitworth Mauser in 300 Weatherby magnum, which sped things up. Only the right feed rail needed work to allow it to feed properly. I decided I needed it after hunting hippos on dry land in Tanzania. Garrett | |||
|
| one of us |
Garrett, were you with Mark Sullivan????? square shooter | |||
|
| one of us |
Ib404, I was in the M2 concession, owned by Bushmen Safari's (or leased I should say). I booked through Christain Wyeth, who is also part owner of that lease. (He ran a great hunt) Ernesto Gonzales was my PH. Garrett | |||
|
| One of Us |
jeffeosso... could the soon to be 500 a.r. be shoehorned to fit in a m98 like the 500 jeffe??? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 500 Jeffery vs. 505 Gibbs
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia